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Originally posted by airwalk:
I guess you have never heard of Dredge or Cephalid Breakfast?

I'd wager Grave-Troll is the most oft reanimated creature in Magic history. Sutured Ghoul being a 45+/45+ hasted trampler is pretty good I hear.

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Originally posted by rats60:
I've never seen Golgari Grave Troll reanimated. Maybe Flame Kin Zealot or Angel of Despair, but never the troll. That's just a bad play.

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You have seen some bad dredge players then, lots of people don't use any maindeck DR 'targets'. FKZ is typically a win more and only needed against decks faster than you, (Heck who even uses FKZ at all when there are better 'win now' options that have been printed?). Angel is a silver bullet against Moat and Platinum Angel, not a go to target you grab to win the game.

Anyone ignoring Grave-Troll doesn't know how to play dredge.

A turn 2 10/10 isn't a 'bad play' unless you're up against something that can chump you all day, it's typically a much better play to reanimate the Troll ASAP then it is to wait and dig through the rest of your deck for FKZ and try to combo out on them.

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Originally posted by airwalk:
That's neat, but it's not what the OP asked.

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Ghoul is a one-hit wonder but aside from being fat he doesn't protect himself or alter the state of the game. And i'm not sure how he's dropping as a 45/45 as early as the rest of the creatures can be, wouldn't the opponent have mana, removal, and some sort of board by then?
I don't know the rate Dredge and Breakfast can pitch cards to the graveyard, but he's also riskier.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
Again that's basically what i said, but cool.

Ghoul is a one-hit wonder but aside from being fat he doesn't protect himself or alter the state of the game. And i'm not sure how he's dropping as a 45/45 as early as the rest of the creatures can be, wouldn't the opponent have mana, removal, and some sort of board by then?
I don't know the rate Dredge and Breakfast can pitch cards to the graveyard, but he's also riskier.

Iona can pretty effectively shut down a deck. And to a lesser extent, Archon and Archangel. Inkwell is hard to get rid of, as in Sphinx and Akroma.

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Well, we already had talked about most all the good single target fatties, so I simply brought up a few more less traditional ones to add to the discussion.

And yes, the Ghoul can almost be as fast a traditional single target fatties. It can't happen turn 1 like you can with Dark Ritual/Entomb/Reanimate, but it can happen as early as turn 2 without getting into anything too crazy. A first turn Nomad's En-Kor/Shuko followed by a second turn Cephallid Illusionist will allow you to mill your whole deck into the graveyard along with putting a couple Narcomoeba's into play. You can then flashback Dread Return bringing Sutured Ghoul into play removing a Lord of Extinction from the game, making his power and toughness equal to the number of all cards in graveyards. Dragon Breath will be in your graveyard too giving your Ghoul haste allowing you to swing for lethal.

No, it doesn't protect itself, but neither do some other good reanimation targets. There's always a trade off and each are better than the other in different circumstances.

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Originally posted by airwalk:
You have seen some bad dredge players then, lots of people don't use any maindeck DR 'targets'. FKZ is typically a win more and only needed against decks faster than you, (Heck who even uses FKZ at all when there are better 'win now' options that have been printed?). Angel is a silver bullet against Moat and Platinum Angel, not a go to target you grab to win the game.

Anyone ignoring Grave-Troll doesn't know how to play dredge.

A turn 2 10/10 isn't a 'bad play' unless you're up against something that can chump you all day, it's typically a much better play to reanimate the Troll ASAP then it is to wait and dig through the rest of your deck for FKZ and try to combo out on them.

The only explainations I have for you not ever seeing a Troll reanimated is that you have either only watched a handful of games involving dredge, or are watching mindless bad dredge players who have tunnelvision on finding their FMZ/Flayer of the Hatebound rather than playing the game based on the actual boardstate.

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Originally posted by rats60:
I've never seen Golgari Grave Troll reanimated. Maybe Flame Kin Zealot or Angel of Despair, but never the troll. That's just a bad play.

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I've seen it, but not very often, and never in the first few turns. Partly, I'm sure, that's because the deck I'm piloting is really hard on Dredge.

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Originally posted by rats60:
I don't know what fantasy world you are living in, but a 10/10 turn 2 troll would never happen and even if it did, to lose the guy that fills up your gy to a stp is a bad play.

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I've broken more than a few turn 2 Collisiums/Breakthroughs that led into fat Grave-Trolls. And if you're making a 2nd turn Troll he's probably not your only Dredger anyway.

I just goldfished this in front of me now after 3 games playing to the 2nd turn.

Turn 1: Gemestone Mine -> Putrid Imp -> Pitch Stinkweed Imp
Turn 2: Dredge 5 (Troll, Breakthrough, Ichorid, Therapy, Troll), pitch Trolls, Careful Study, Dredge 12 (Bridge, Tribe, DR, City, Narcomoeba, Therapy, Narcomoeba, Therapy, Narcomoeba, Collisium, Therapy, Stinky), Discard anything useless, Use Therapy, Use DR bringing a 13/13 Troll into play.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
wouldn't the opponent have mana, removal, and some sort of board by then?

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That's what Cabal Therapies are for.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:

I don't know the rate Dredge and Breakfast can pitch cards to the graveyard, but he's also riskier.

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