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Author Topic:   More ethics question
slurpee
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posted January 31, 2013 09:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for slurpee Click Here to Email slurpee Send a private message to slurpee Click to send slurpee an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View slurpee's Trade Auction or SaleView slurpee's Trade Auction or Sale
Wow, No good deed goes unpunished.

Kinda weird that someone would take a stereo and magic cards. Perhaps he had the others in decks as well and was going to sell those off as well.

Regardless moral of the story, turn in stuff and leave. I don't think I would accuse someone of stealing my other stuff and probably in his mind he just wanted to be made whole again. I will say it again at the end of the day the only one not hurt here is the Thief...

 
hilikuS
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posted January 31, 2013 09:30 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
Sure. And when my wallet was stolen (pickpocketed), I was really relieved to get it back (in the mail) with all my cards and stuff: it wasn't great that all my cash was gone, but better than than everything. Still doesn't make it right to have taken the money, though.

The same applies here: the outcome is better than nothing, but the question wasn't about the best outcome; it was about what was right. And it wasn't right to sell cards from a collection seriously suspected to have been stolen without first making an effort to locate the owner. Nor was it right to purchase a collection seriously suspected to be stolen with the intent of keeping it and making no effort to locate its owner.



I don't think it was wrong of him to reimburse himself with some of the items. At the time he may have been aware that it was stolen, but at the same time, he did spend $200. Do you expect the guy to eat a $200 loss because somebody else got robbed?

Him not making an effort to find the buyer isn't too honest, but if he does give the stuff back, I think he makes it right in the end. The person is a random stranger to the guy who was robbed. I don't think (personally) you can expect any random stranger to be as nice to make it somewhat right. Pure morals, yes you're right, but in the situation I think if he gives it back, the robbed guy has got to be happy with the outcome.

Would I try to get the guy back his stuff? Yes, but just because I would do it doesn't mean I would expect a stranger to feel the same way. Just the same as if I spent the $200, found the guy who lost the stuff, helped him out in spades and he didn't pay me for my expenses. Would I be ****ed? Yeah buddy, but that's just how it goes. He doesn't have to give me that courtesy.

Basically, I see where you're coming from goas, but I wouldn't think any lower of the guy who paid the $200 if he gave the items back. If he found this dude who was robbed, and kept his mouth shut... well I probably wouldn't know about it anyway, but that to me is where a line is drawn.

[Edited 3 times, lastly by hilikuS on January 31, 2013]

 
marlo213
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posted January 31, 2013 09:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for marlo213 Send a private message to marlo213 Click to send marlo213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View marlo213's Have/Want ListView marlo213's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
Sure. And when my wallet was stolen (pickpocketed), I was really relieved to get it back (in the mail) with all my cards and stuff: it wasn't great that all my cash was gone, but better than than everything. Still doesn't make it right to have taken the money, though.

The same applies here: the outcome is better than nothing, but the question wasn't about the best outcome; it was about what was right. And it wasn't right to sell cards from a collection seriously suspected to have been stolen without first making an effort to locate the owner. Nor was it right to purchase a collection seriously suspected to be stolen with the intent of keeping it and making no effort to locate its owner.



I am rather curious to how you would go about finding the owner of the collection?

 
Goaswerfraiejen
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posted January 31, 2013 10:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Goaswerfraiejen Click Here to Email Goaswerfraiejen Send a private message to Goaswerfraiejen Click to send Goaswerfraiejen an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Bob probably shouldn't have lied twice: once about what he paid, and once about the state of the collection that came into his possession. Things may or may not have gone better for Bob, but lying suggests Bob thought what he did was wrong. And it probably didn't help matters.


quote:
Originally posted by hilikuS:
I don't think it was wrong of him to reimburse himself with some of the items. At the time he may have been aware that it was stolen, but at the same time, he did spend $200. Do you expect the guy to eat a $200 loss because somebody else got robbed?

Actually, I expect upstanding citizens to withdraw from shady transactions like the one described, and to report the incident to the police. Alternately, if they engage in the transaction, I expect it to be to recover the goods before they can be broken up and sold piecemeal, and I don't expect it to be done for their own profit. In that case, if the person seriously thinks s/he has come into possession of stolen goods, I expect him/her to report it to the police, who will hold on to the stuff for a month or so in case someone claims it. If nobody claims it, the cops will release it back to you.

I don't expect anyone to eat a $200 loss just because someone else got robbed, but I also don't expect them to make a profit on the robbery.

And, frankly, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect a random stranger to pay you back the $200--as long as you told them that you had to spend that money to get the collection. If you tell them nothing, then you have no reason to expect compensation. In fact, I think most people would be very happy to do so, or to give you some choice cards for your trouble. If, however, you paid $200, sold $400 of cards, and still asked for a $200 payment, then I think you're a crook, and no better than the thief himself/herself.

I guess other opinions are available. The difference is, mine is right and those others are wrong.


quote:
Originally posted by marlo213:
I am rather curious to how you would go about finding the owner of the collection?

Easy enough, actually. Bob doesn't need to find the owner, but should try. Step one is to ask around in the vicinity of the parking lot where he purchased the stolen cards (and yeah, you probably shouldn't be toting your own cards with you). If someone's selling them in a parking lot at a huge discount and not online for proper profit, the source probably isn't far away. Bob could also have made posts online, here at MOTL, Salvation, SCG, etc., given the location and approximate time he came into possession of the cards, and had people who thought it was theirs describe the collection to his satisfaction. He could have reported the incident to the police, who would have held on to the property for a month or so in case someone claimed it then released it to him. And so on. It's really not that complicated.


EDIT: Fixed the coding.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by Goaswerfraiejen on January 31, 2013]

 
marlo213
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posted January 31, 2013 10:27 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for marlo213 Send a private message to marlo213 Click to send marlo213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View marlo213's Have/Want ListView marlo213's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
Bob probably shouldn't have lied twice: once about what he paid, and once about the state of the collection that came into his possession. Things may or may not have gone better for Bob, but lying suggests Bob thought what he did was wrong. And it probably didn't help matters.


Actually, I expect upstanding citizens to withdraw from shady transactions like the one described, and to report the incident to the police. Alternately, if they engage in the transaction, I expect it to be to recover the goods before they can be broken up and sold piecemeal, and I don't expect it to be done for their own profit. In that case, if the person seriously thinks s/he has come into possession of stolen goods, I expect him/her to report it to the police, who will hold on to the stuff for a month or so in case someone claims it. If nobody claims it, the cops will release it back to you.

I don't expect anyone to eat a $200 loss just because someone else got robbed, but I also don't expect them to make a profit on the robbery.

And, frankly, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect a random stranger to pay you back the $200--as long as you told them that you had to spend that money to get the collection. If you tell them nothing, then you have no reason to expect compensation. In fact, I think most people would be very happy to do so, or to give you some choice cards for your trouble. If, however, you paid $200, sold $400 of cards, and still asked for a $200 payment, then I think you're a crook, and no better than the thief himself/herself.

I guess other opinions are available. The difference is, mine is right and those others are wrong.


Easy enough, actually. Bob doesn't need to find the owner, but should try. Step one is to ask around in the vicinity of the parking lot where he purchased the stolen cards (and yeah, you probably shouldn't be toting your own cards with you). If someone's selling them in a parking lot at a huge discount and not online for proper profit, the source probably isn't far away. Bob could also have made posts online, here at MOTL, Salvation, SCG, etc., given the location and approximate time he came into possession of the cards, and had people who thought it was theirs describe the collection to his satisfaction. He could have reported the incident to the police, who would have held on to the property for a month or so in case someone claimed it then released it to him. And so on. It's really not that complicated.


EDIT: Fixed the coding.


I really hope you are as good of a person as you seem to claim to be, because we need more people like that. After hearing Bob's story, I know I will think twice before rushing to do a good deed. I am sure Bob feels the same

 
hilikuS
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posted January 31, 2013 10:36 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by marlo213:
I really hope you are as good of a person as you seem to claim to be, because we need more people like that. After hearing Bob's story, I know I will think twice before rushing to do a good deed. I am sure Bob feels the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nDq1HoNm-E

^ This lol.

 
Goaswerfraiejen
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posted January 31, 2013 11:39 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Goaswerfraiejen Click Here to Email Goaswerfraiejen Send a private message to Goaswerfraiejen Click to send Goaswerfraiejen an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hilikuS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nDq1HoNm-E

^ This lol.



Shrug. The question concerned ethics. The answer is what it is; you don't have to like it.

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Legacy UGB River Rock primer. PM comments/questions.
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Mr.C
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posted January 31, 2013 01:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
Bob shouldn't have lied. Why did he lie?
 
Thanos
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posted January 31, 2013 01:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Thanos Click Here to Email Thanos Send a private message to Thanos Click to send Thanos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Why didn't the guy go out to Bob's car and cherry pick Bob's stereo and whatever else he had?

Maybe go back to Bob's house and see what else he'd like and then give Bob's GF a shot.

What a crappy story.

 
Volcanon
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posted January 31, 2013 02:22 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
All right fine. With this in mind, in the future I will just keep the cards and not return them. Or "return" them by leaving them on a table somewhere.

Bob was stupid for listening to the officer. He should have pointed out that the cards in the bag were his and there was nothing to prove they were not, since these are fungible goods. Get arrested if it means not losing $2000.

 
Lord Crovax
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posted January 31, 2013 02:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
All right fine. With this in mind, in the future I will just keep the cards and not return them. Or "return" them by leaving them on a table somewhere.

Bob was stupid for listening to the officer. He should have pointed out that the cards in the bag were his and there was nothing to prove they were not, since these are fungible goods. Get arrested if it means not losing $2000.


This...

 
Mr.C
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posted January 31, 2013 02:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
All right fine. With this in mind, in the future I will just keep the cards and not return them. Or "return" them by leaving them on a table somewhere.

Bob was stupid for listening to the officer. He should have pointed out that the cards in the bag were his and there was nothing to prove they were not, since these are fungible goods. Get arrested if it means not losing $2000.


And that too. The cards in the bag are mine, here are yours, don't lose them and be thankful I was decent enough to return them.

 
hilikuS
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posted January 31, 2013 02:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
LOL show up at game stores looking for your bag. You never know who could walk in with it!
 
Lord Crovax
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posted January 31, 2013 02:46 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hilikuS:
LOL show up at game stores looking for your bag. You never know who could walk in with it!

I've seen people try this, specially if new players frequent a store...

Sad so many people try and scam...

 
Bugger
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posted January 31, 2013 04:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bugger Click Here to Email Bugger Send a private message to Bugger Click to send Bugger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
Bob shouldn't have lied. Why did he lie?

 
Zeckk
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posted January 31, 2013 04:23 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
Bob didn't have to lie. All he had to do was keep his mouth shut about buying the cards in the first place.
 
ryan2754
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posted January 31, 2013 06:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
It's really sad, actually. Just sad the lengths that people will go to to get ahead.

Doing what the original 'owner' of the stolen cards did (ask for additional cards in front of the officer that he may or may not have had) is worse, IMO, than just stealing cards from someone especially if this was scam (both are unacceptable).

I really hope karma really ends up being real, these people really need to get their comeuppance.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by ryan2754 on January 31, 2013]

 
hilikuS
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posted January 31, 2013 06:22 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
I've seen people try this, specially if new players frequent a store...

Sad so many people try and scam...


Well I was just playin' but yeah that would be super shady for people to do.

 
hammr7
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posted January 31, 2013 07:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for hammr7 Click Here to Email hammr7 Send a private message to hammr7 Click to send hammr7 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Generally if Bob didn't know it was stolen when he bought the collection, he basically obtains legal title to the cards when he buys them from the thief. I'm sure this case would be more fuzzy since it's obvious that something happened to the cards for someone to sell $2k worth of them for $200.

Regardless, I'd return the cards and $200. But I wouldn't consider the other $200 a finder's fee--it's to make sure I don't lose anything. I don't have any legal obligation to return the cards, but I'm doing so because it's morally and ethically correct to do so.


If this is what you think, you should never offer legal advice, at least in the US. Ignorance of the law is not a legal excuse.

Title to stolen goods always remains with the original owner. Anyone else in possession of stolen goods is either 1) the thief, or 2) an accessory after the fact.

The police may cut a clueless owner a break, depending upon the reasonableness of the clueless way they obtained the property. But they will take the stolen property and will not provide any reimbursement.

Of course, buying cards from a supposed player or collector (someone who knows the value of the cards) in a parking lot for a small percentage of what that same individual could get for walking another hundred yards (to go into the tournament) is not clueless enough. Bob knew something was up, but the value of the deal made him not really care.

Whether Bob knew they were stolen or not has absolutely no legal bearing. If the cards were originally stolen, then even if Bob overpaid they are still not his.

From a legal perspective, the original owner "owns" the cards. Bob can go after the person who sold him the cards for a refund. That seller can go after the person he got them from. If the chain goes back to original thief, then the thief can also be criminally charged.

Even worse, if Bob innocently buys the cards, and then later realizes that they were "probably" stolen, then legally he is obliged to immediately turn them over to the police or to the original owner. Otherwise he is in violation of additional laws beyond simple criminal possession.

Bob may be able to get away without telling anyone anything. But once he knows what likely happened, and doesn't do the right thing (turn the cards over, even if he doesn't get his money back), then his failure to act usually elevates his crime to outright theft. The magnitude of the crime depends on the value of the collection. Simple possession of stolen goods is often a misdemeanor. In New jersey, where I live, actual theft in excess of $500 is a class 4 felony. At $5,000 it becomes a class 3 felony. Either, if you are convicted, makes you a felon. A class 3 felony has a presumption of ~ 6 months to a year of jail time if convicted.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by hammr7 on January 31, 2013]

 
hammr7
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posted January 31, 2013 07:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for hammr7 Click Here to Email hammr7 Send a private message to hammr7 Click to send hammr7 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Regarding Bob getting ripped off. If Bob had told the entire truth, he could have defended himself and gotten to keep all his cards. He could have demanded to go to the police station and make the police take an inventory of his original collection, and of the card he purchased. he could have demanded that both he and the kid whose collection was stolen take lie detector tests. He could have forced the issue and proven he had told the truth. And he might have been able to prove the other kid was trying to steal cards from Bob.

But he lied. He lied about what he had bought, to cover what he sold. And because of that he crushed his own credibility. He brought this whole thing on himself, not necessarily by the original purchase, but certainly by his failure to be completely honest and responsible after that. If you did a little wrong, own up to it or end up in a much bigger wrong. Or open yourself up to being taken advantage of because you feel so guilty that you are afraid to stand up for your own rights.

As a good friend of mine used to say; "Speak the truth and fear no one!"

 
B14ckM4g3
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posted February 01, 2013 01:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for B14ckM4g3 Click Here to Email B14ckM4g3 Send a private message to B14ckM4g3 Click to send B14ckM4g3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Wow. Bad breaks for Bob.

Once upon a time, I would of given the collection back. But that was awhile ago. I have witnessed similar stories, and was almost dragged into one. Since then - Nope.

If you're reckless enough to bring $X.oo and leave it unattended then you're gambling yourself.

I wouldn't of bought the collection. I would of taken out my cellphone, made up some story and got a picture of him, then TAKEN the stolen goods right into the tournament right to the TO. Tell him the story, show him the picture, and retain anonimity. I wouldn't of paid a penny for stolen goods that was so obvious.

Bob made a dumb move. Owner made a dick move. TO did what a TO had to do. Police kept policing. Thief was laughing. Sad story bro. d

 
choco man
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posted February 01, 2013 06:46 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by hammr7:
As a good friend of mine used to say; "Speak the truth and fear no one!"

Unfortunately, innocent people have as much to fear authorities as guilty people do. That being said, Bob didn't do enough to stand up for himself.

1. Should you buy stolen stuff? No
2. Should you buy stuff you think is stolen? No
3. Should you return stolen stuff? Yes, everything even the original $200 (you don't take any "finders fee")?

The questionable(s) are whether it's stolen and whose stuff it was originally. The way the situation is being presented that stuff is clear. Bob at no point had to make a hard decision. He just made the wrong decision. Especially since he figured (or even suspected) the collection was stolen.

If he was scammed, there's also no ethics question. That's wrong, no question about it.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by choco man on February 01, 2013]

 
marlo213
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posted February 01, 2013 06:55 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for marlo213 Send a private message to marlo213 Click to send marlo213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View marlo213's Have/Want ListView marlo213's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by hammr7:
Regarding Bob getting ripped off. If Bob had told the entire truth, he could have defended himself and gotten to keep all his cards. He could have demanded to go to the police station and make the police take an inventory of his original collection, and of the card he purchased. he could have demanded that both he and the kid whose collection was stolen take lie detector tests. He could have forced the issue and proven he had told the truth. And he might have been able to prove the other kid was trying to steal cards from Bob.

But he lied. He lied about what he had bought, to cover what he sold. And because of that he crushed his own credibility. He brought this whole thing on himself, not necessarily by the original purchase, but certainly by his failure to be completely honest and responsible after that. If you did a little wrong, own up to it or end up in a much bigger wrong. Or open yourself up to being taken advantage of because you feel so guilty that you are afraid to stand up for your own rights.

As a good friend of mine used to say; "Speak the truth and fear no one!"


One of these guys your friend?

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Three-Men-Wrongfully-Convicted-of-Murder-Released-After-18-Years-in-Prison-188238191.html

 
Jtrade77
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posted February 01, 2013 12:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Jtrade77 Send a private message to Jtrade77 Click to send Jtrade77 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I haven't read the rest of this post yet, just the original situation.

First, there is no guarantee that Bob bought the entire collection that was stolen, the scammer could have easily sold it to more than one person before him, a few binders at a time. If there were more binders than he could carry, this is even likely.

Second, it sounds like Bob has already mingled cards from the collection with his personal stuff. This is bad. If Bob has a substantial amount of his own stuff and attempts a return, the owner may try and snag Bob's own stuff, including stereo and GPS from Bob's car. Since the theft *just happened* the owner is likely at the 'angry' stage, and not at the 'grateful to get anything back stage'.

Third, no guarantee the collection really was stolen at the time of purchase... no way to know. After hanging out at magic stores for years, people who come in and try to sell $2000+ collections for 1/10th the value are about a bi-monthly event at larger, more populated areas. If Bob thinks he is dealing with stolen property, this is what he should do(or what I would do in his place).

1.) Separate all the cards he just bought from his own collection. Get his buddies there as witnesses to this.

2.) Leave the venue and drive to the nearest police station. Everyone gets the story straight on the way.

3.) Turn in found property -- all the cards of the new collection, and explain it was purchased near the current tournament venue. Provide a phone number for the organizer, and maybe the name of the guy who just got his stuff stolen. Mention *presumed owner* was not in a good state of mind and you didn't feel like a confrontation.

4.) Explain. Depending on how bad Bob needed that money, he could state he sold some of the cards, or claim he bought the collection 'as is'. If it was me, I'd replace whatever I sold with identical stuff from my own collection, minus the $200 I paid for it, so I'd break even. (Not paying $200 in charity to do a good deed that is a major inconvenience to me. I'm not rich right now.) Either way, the officer should be made to understand, with Bob's buddies as witnesses, that Bob plays magic too, and has his own collection that is separated from this stuff. That is why he began to believe this might be stolen property, as opposed to a really good deal.

5.) Bob should leave his phone and contact information, in the event the collection is instead a good find, and get the heck out of dodge. By most local laws, if unclaimed within a month, it is his. Bob should follow-up next month if no response is heard, using the police report number.

When dealing with items of value greater than $500, it is never a good ideal to try and settle it up by yourself, without covering your backside. That's my take. It would be different if Bob knows the presumed owner, but if they are strangers to each other, I would definitely get the police involved, including a description of the collection's seller. That's my take on the situation.

 

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