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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
Someone may want to look at some of Chas or others' previous articles on what cards are NOT on the reserve list that might surprise you.

I think all tutors can be reprinted in fact

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But for a draft format, putting in Grim, Gamble, Imperial, Demonic, Infernal, Enlightened, Personal, Mystical, Worldly, Sylvan, and Vampiric would just be really bad.

We could expect like 2 maybe?

Demonic because it's popular in commander and isn't going to have it's value destroyed like Imperial or Grim? Or Infernal because Legacy playable?
Gamble seems ok.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
stuff.

temp_acct_leak has stated that Infernal and the Judgement Wishes are in, for what it's worth.

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
Someone may want to look at some of Chas or others' previous articles on what cards are NOT on the reserve list that might surprise you. I think that list includes but isn't limited to:

Mana Drain
Karakas
Show and tell
Sneak attack
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Rishadan Port
Wasteland
Force of will
Imperial Recruiter
I think all tutors can be reprinted in fact

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Bear in mind that some of these may be reprinted this go round, but many won't be for a while. I suspect what WOTC will do is swap between Eternal and Modern every year to maximize profit at 9.99 a pack for the foreseeable future until it plays itself out.

No real proof, but just an educated guess.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
I agree with the above statement. I can also see a legacy masters. I would even go so far as printing cards like collector's edition again so the cards can not be played in tournements but proxied with there copyright..

Anyone that thinks this isn't a money grab, ask yourself what the hell does wasteland do for you in sealed or draft unless there are nonbasics. There won't be duals so wasteland doesn't even make sense. But either did most of the mythics for modern maseters 1 or 2. I mean really who the hell would take tarmogoyf except that it was for money...

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If the point is to reprint cards to reduce the cost/value just say that.

And my point on wasteland was that it shouldn't be in the set at all, nor should have tarmogoyf or dark confidant. They don't fit for drafts or sealed. They only serve to reduce the value and to have more cards printed.

Just as you 100% support the devaluing of cards, I am the opposite. I also completely condemn magic online vintage masters being the same price as regular boosters and they are digital property. Did I expect them to be paper, no, but I expected the boosters to be discounted since they are intangible. It's a personal thing for me because I believe if you devalue everything shops can not survive.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
No the problem is the deception. They make it out like they are printing these cards so that people can enjoy the drafting or sealed. The reality is the money game. Please don't tell me you print cards that fit for draft, as usually the com/unc are cards that were all from a previous set, like Time spiral block for MM1. No one wanted any most of those com/unc especiallly in MM2.

If the point is to reprint cards to reduce the cost/value just say that.

And my point on wasteland was that it shouldn't be in the set at all, nor should have tarmogoyf or dark confidant. They don't fit for drafts or sealed. They only serve to reduce the value and to have more cards printed.

Just as you 100% support the devaluing of cards, I am the opposite. I also completely condemn magic online vintage masters being the same price as regular boosters and they are digital property. Did I expect them to be paper, no, but I expected the boosters to be discounted since they are intangible. It's a personal thing for me because I believe if you devalue everything shops can not survive.

The reason baseball card stores don't exist is because the cards were so overprinted. They had packs that were 9.99 each and the cards were still worthless. When the goods you sell are not worth much, the shops close.

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Yes those two sets printed a bunch of staples, and great cards for Modern, but on the other hand, think about what the prices of those cards might have been. I get that MM1 brought more people into Modern, and that helped to increase the price, but without the supply on some of these cards, the prices would go even higher.

A good example right now is Affinity stuff. Ravagers, Glimmervoids. They were reprinted, and the price on them dropped significantly. Now they are right back up.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
No the problem is the deception. They make it out like they are printing these cards so that people can enjoy the drafting or sealed. The reality is the money game. Please don't tell me you print cards that fit for draft, as usually the com/unc are cards that were all from a previous set, like Time spiral block for MM1. No one wanted any most of those com/unc especiallly in MM2.

If the point is to reprint cards to reduce the cost/value just say that.

And my point on wasteland was that it shouldn't be in the set at all, nor should have tarmogoyf or dark confidant. They don't fit for drafts or sealed. They only serve to reduce the value and to have more cards printed.

Just as you 100% support the devaluing of cards, I am the opposite. I also completely condemn magic online vintage masters being the same price as regular boosters and they are digital property. Did I expect them to be paper, no, but I expected the boosters to be discounted since they are intangible. It's a personal thing for me because I believe if you devalue everything shops can not survive.

The reason baseball card stores don't exist is because the cards were so overprinted. They had packs that were 9.99 each and the cards were still worthless. When the goods you sell are not worth much, the shops close.

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While I see where you're going with this, it's not entirely accurate. With regards to Magic, Eternal Masters won't devalue any cards, at least not any of the high end cards. Assuming Daze, for example, is in the set, then yes, regular Nemesis Dazes are going to take a hit, but the foils will still be astronomically high. Wasteland hasn't been hurt by any of it's promo foil versions, and I doubt being a rare in a limited run set will make much difference either. The true motivation here is to ease access to certain cards, making it easier for more players to get into the format. What this set will do is offer a cheaper alternative for things like FoW over the Alliance version, but still maintaining the value of the original.

As for baseball card shops, their demise was caused by two things:

1) Demand all but died. Maybe it was the advent of gaming cards that did it, maybe it was too many sets with too many chase cards, but whatever it was, nobody really wanted baseball cards by the late 90's (a fine example of why supply-side economics doesn't work, but I digress).

Sure you say you can't play games with sports cards, but just card stores need more space then sports cards did. If all cards are less then 5.00 how many 5.00 cards at 3.50 a pack do you have to sell before you can afford the rent and other expenses. As a small business myself you are not getting out of less then 5k in expenses per month if you have any staff. So even if you gave someone $2 for 5.00 card that you sell for 5.00 that is 1600-1700 5.00 cards you have to sell A MONTH. Now if cards are worth way more then there is a bigger spread and stores make money. Your 5.00 entry fee for FNM is not what is keeping the store open, it is the people who buy cards for the decks for FNM.

I understand the modern speech. But since there has been no mention of supporting legacy anywhere, I can't say this is to get people interested in playing it. When modern became a real big deal was when it was part of the protour. Stores then supported modern. Now if Wizards came out and said legacy or a new format was going to be part of the protour and then shops start supporting it. I would change my tune.

And as for wasteland, it will be a rare, before this announcement they were 52, with a buy price of 39 from stores. Today they are 43 with a buy price of 25. So stores are already reacting. In June on release I put it at 20 for sell and under 10 for buy.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
While I see where you're going with this, it's not entirely accurate. With regards to Magic, Eternal Masters won't devalue any cards, at least not any of the high end cards. Assuming Daze, for example, is in the set, then yes, regular Nemesis Dazes are going to take a hit, but the foils will still be astronomically high. Wasteland hasn't been hurt by any of it's promo foil versions, and I doubt being a rare in a limited run set will make much difference either. The true motivation here is to ease access to certain cards, making it easier for more players to get into the format. What this set will do is offer a cheaper alternative for things like FoW over the Alliance version, but still maintaining the value of the original.

As for baseball card shops, their demise was caused by two things:

1) Demand all but died. Maybe it was the advent of gaming cards that did it, maybe it was too many sets with too many chase cards, but whatever it was, nobody really wanted baseball cards by the late 90's (a fine example of why supply-side economics doesn't work, but I digress).

2) The internet became a thing. If you needed a certain card back in the day, you had to seek out card shops and hope that had it or could get it for you. Once the internet was around, ebay and other online dealers became the way to go. So why is this different from Magic? You still need a place to play organized Magic. Baseball cards spend their days sitting in binders, so you don't need a physical store for them to be "useful". Kitchen table Magic games are fun, but if you want competitive Magic, you need somewhere to run it, and stores fit the bill neatly.

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Demand has never died for sportscards, lol. They are hotter than ever. Lebron James rc is 50k. Newer rcs like Steph Curry or Mike Trout are 4 figure cards. Even mass produced Jordan rcs are now 20k for gem mint. Vintage rcs and superstars in high grade are on fire. If you have anything good I will happily trade power, duals or other staples for good baseball or basketball cards. I don't want any junk, just like people don't pay anything for bulk magic commons.

I've been going to baseball card shows for 30+ years, and the have seriously changed over that time. 10 years ago, there was only 1 show in this area, and it was pretty sad. Today, it's certainly better, we get about 3 good shows a year, and they've doubled in size, but still down from their heyday.

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Originally posted by rats60:
Demand has never died for sportscards, lol. They are hotter than ever. Lebron James rc is 50k. Newer rcs like Steph Curry or Mike Trout are 4 figure cards. Even mass produced Jordan rcs are now 20k for gem mint. Vintage rcs and superstars in high grade are on fire. If you have anything good I will happily trade power, duals or other staples for good baseball or basketball cards. I don't want any junk, just like people don't pay anything for bulk magic commons.

Sports card shops became scarce when the card companies started selling most of their product to online dealers and now case breakers. WOTC was smart enough to push players into local stores for tournaments. Take away fnm, drafts, prereleases and other tournaments and make stores survive on pack/ box sales and singles at Internet prices and you will see the same thing happen.

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You say this, but when I was a kid, there were a ton of friends and other kids in our town that collected baseball, basketball and football cards. Baseball cards were definitely the most popular, but right around the mid '90s, people just stopped caring. That's not to say the vintage card market wasn't around. It definitely was, but the economic consumption by "average" collectors dwindled greatly. I used to just be able to ask random new kids in school if they had a particular card, and they'd be like "yea, but there's no way I'm letting it go" or "nope, but do you have (fill-in-the-blank)?" Try asking random kids in any school that question now or even 10 years ago. There aren't nearly as many collecting sports cards. The internet has brought those that collect closer together, but there just are not nearly as many collectors as there used to be.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Demand has come back for sports cards for sure, but it definitely took a nosedive 10 years ago. Yeah, high end cards stayed high end, but demand for new stuff wasn't what it had been. And point me to one of these $50k Lebron rookies. The only ones I see that are anything close (as in $4-5k) are the autographed/jersey cards. Those are highly limited and not the run of the mill cards. The standard '03 Topps Rookie is like $40-50. Mike Trout's RC is about $150.

I've been going to baseball card shows for 30+ years, and the have seriously changed over that time. 10 years ago, there was only 1 show in this area, and it was pretty sad. Today, it's certainly better, we get about 3 good shows a year, and they've doubled in size, but still down from their heyday.

I gave away all my junk baseball cards, but I've still got a fair share of good stuff. Mostly pre-war.

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In your town only or in your area? There are huge shows in Rosemont 2 or 3 times a year and smaller shows every month in the Chicago area.

It changed for somewhat similar reasons to why the comic book market crapped out in the 90's. Too much fancy special foil embossed stamped glow in the dark scratch and sniff members of Kiss putting their own blood in the ink die-cut hoopla bull****.

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Originally posted by rats60:
In your town only or in your area? There are huge shows in Rosemont 2 or 3 times a year and smaller shows every month in the Chicago area.

If you decide you want to move any of your "dying" pretty war baseball cards, let me know. I have a lot more confidence in them than Magic.

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Those are the ones I mean. The Sun-Times show was only annually in July for a while, and that was it. Now, it's bi-annually in March and November, with the Fanatics show in July. Like I said, it's better than it was, but 20 years ago there were probably 5 or 6 big shows a year, each twice as big as the above.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Those are the ones I mean. The Sun-Times show was only annually in July for a while, and that was it. Now, it's bi-annually in March and November, with the Fanatics show in July. Like I said, it's better than it was, but 20 years ago there were probably 5 or 6 big shows a year, each twice as big as the above.

And never said the cards themselves were dying, especially the old stuff. The baseball card market hit an all-time low in the 90's/early 2000's for sure, and there's very little of value from that era, but things have since rebounded quite a bit, though sadly, not enough to bring the shops back. Gone are the days of browsing on a Saturday and just discovering something you never knew existed.

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The SCD show was in July. The Sun Times show has always been in March/ November. The SCD show died out when the National started coming every 2 or 3 years. There has never been just 1 big show in Chicago. It has always had 2-3 big shows going back to the mid 80s.

What if someone like scg's comes out and say we are no long supporting legacy and vintage events at all, then prices on the reserved list plummet to near next to nothing? Then when prices are down, wizards says we are removing the reserved list. Finally, scg's says okay we will now support vintage and legacy or eternal formats in general, print away.

I keep hearing that wizards would legally have to pay people the difference in value of what the reserved cards are worth at the time they removed the reserved list. If they're worth hardly anything at that time, couldnt this not be a big deal?

I dont know if the payput thing is entirely true, but wondering if anyone knows for sure?

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Originally posted by slurpee:
If the point is to reprint cards to reduce the cost/value just say that.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
And my point on wasteland was that it shouldn't be in the set at all, nor should have tarmogoyf or dark confidant. They don't fit for drafts or sealed. They only serve to reduce the value and to have more cards printed.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
I also completely condemn magic online vintage masters being the same price as regular boosters and they are digital property. Did I expect them to be paper, no, but I expected the boosters to be discounted since they are intangible.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
Is this set Chronicles? probably not, but we might be getting there.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
But since there has been no mention of supporting legacy anywhere, I can't say this is to get people interested in playing it.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
And as for wasteland, it will be a rare, before this announcement they were 52, with a buy price of 39 from stores. Today they are 43 with a buy price of 25. So stores are already reacting. In June on release I put it at 20 for sell and under 10 for buy.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
People dealt in legacy cards knowing that they would never be reprinted, yet here they are.

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Originally posted by slurpee:
If this is successful, what stops them from other cards. Oh the reserve list, which if eternal masters goes over well, then they go lets do vintage...

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Originally posted by Heresy19:
Eh! Kinda glad I still haven't traded away my mox diamonds/ LEDs... mox tripled in price

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I got a beautiful altered Diamond on Sunday for $26, so i'm sort of happy. But somewhat upset i didn't just drop like $2000 on all the Diamonds, LEDs, Duals and such.

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Originally posted by crusader_ff3:
Question about the reserved list and the legal issues with it-

What if someone like scg's comes out and say we are no long supporting legacy and vintage events at all

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Originally posted by crusader_ff3:
then prices on the reserved list plummet to near next to nothing? Then when prices are down, wizards says we are removing the reserved list. Finally, scg's says okay we will now support vintage and legacy or eternal formats in general, print away.

I keep hearing that wizards would legally have to pay people the difference in value of what the reserved cards are worth at the time they removed the reserved list. If they're worth hardly anything at that time, couldnt this not be a big deal?

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Some things, like Power/Vintage-only staples, get their value from collect-ability. There's 2 SCG Legacy events this year, 3 Legacy GPs, and only 1 Legacy event from CFB has been announced. So dropping those tiny few legacy events would not change Power.

For duals, they have already seen a dip. I don't think that now, with the new set just announced, we can consider support truly dying any time soon. With EMA, there will probably be people trying out Legacy and therefore people trying to support Legacy.