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Originally posted by dwiz:
They should really make sure the events aren't run terribly, then. GP Charlotte, Vegas (the first one), Toronto (the third one?) were just the most unorganized events ever, and really turned me off GPs. That and everyone cheats, which is hard to stop.

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I'm with you on that. And I honestly think a huge part of delays at events comes down to problems with the software TOs have to use to run events. It remains buggy and the horror stories often come up after it "breaks" in the middle of a huge event.

As for cheating, not sure how to fix that. You can't have a judge watching every game.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
I'm with you on that. And I honestly think a huge part of delays at events comes down to problems with the software TOs have to use to run events. It remains buggy and the horror stories often come up after it "breaks" in the middle of a huge event.

As for cheating, not sure how to fix that. You can't have a judge watching every game.

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Judges should probably announce some things at the beginning of events:

When shuffling your opponents deck make sure you look away so you don't see what they are playing

Reminder: Properly shuffle your opponents deck not just at the beginning of the game but after each search effect

Reminder: Keep your hands and cards in plain site at all times. If you drop a card under the table call a judge immediately so the judge can retrieve the card

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Originally posted by iccarus:
This.

People really need to start to understand the logistics and costs that come along with organizing these huge events. Getting a venue large enough to hold a GP requires a huge up front cost, especially when you have to book it for at least 4-5 days to account for load-in, the tournament itself, and load out. Even having banners hung in the hall can cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. They are also often paying to have attractions like major artists on site.

Stop looking at it from the perspective of a tournament at your LGS and more like a major gaming convention.

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I don't go there for a convention. If I want to go to a gaming convention, I'll hit up BlizzCon, GenCon, DragonCon or even ComiCon. I'm there for the main event, or I'm not there. At least in the past anyway. The way GPs are run lately have basically been a turn off to me so maybe it's better this way.

EDIT: I get what you're saying though. I'm just saying everything about the events is a not as fun as it used to be.
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I think things have just gotten worse as attendance at major events has climbed to higher and higher levels. TOs have to book larger spaces to deal with the 1200+ players they expect to show up. The logistics also become a pain, since you're often running two events at the same time to deal with the high number of players in an efficient manner.

I still maintain that high level events are becoming con-like, just because of all the other stuff they do offer. Dealers, artists, side events...TOs are trying to offer enough to make it worth the cost of traveling there, so people have other options if/when they scrub out.

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Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by iccarus:
Yeah, I pretty much just meant from the perspective of fronting the cost to rent a huge space. It takes a lot more money than I think many people realize, as does staffing the event.

I think things have just gotten worse as attendance at major events has climbed to higher and higher levels. TOs have to book larger spaces to deal with the 1200+ players they expect to show up. The logistics also become a pain, since you're often running two events at the same time to deal with the high number of players in an efficient manner.

I still maintain that high level events are becoming con-like, just because of all the other stuff they do offer. Dealers, artists, side events...TOs are trying to offer enough to make it worth the cost of traveling there, so people have other options if/when they scrub out.

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While I have enjoyed Grand Prix in the past attendance and cost have gotten crazy. $70, $80, $90 for a constructed grand prix where there are going to be 1,700-2,900 players competing for a payout that only goes to top 64 and so you may go 11-4 and not get a prize but other 11-4s might and that prize might cover your hotel expenses for both days unless you packed it in like a clown car...seems rough. I'm going to Indy...i think...but after that the only grand prix i'm expecting to attend moving forward is milwaukee b/c i don't need a hotel.

Honestly, I really am starting to question whether the current model used for the Grand Prix structure is sustainable, for pretty much the exact reasons you outlined. The odds of doing well are so stacked against you and the payout for those outside the T8 is really pretty weak.

We're going to eventually hit a tipping point where people will stop coming out to play in the big events because they realize how horrible those odds truly are.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
We're going to eventually hit a tipping point where people will stop coming out to play in the big events because they realize how horrible those odds truly are.

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Agreed. I think we may already be at that tipping point. After years of record breaking GP attendance I feel like the numbers have leveled off in the last 6-12 months.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
Agreed. I think we may already be at that tipping point. After years of record breaking GP attendance I feel like the numbers have leveled off in the last 6-12 months.

What I'm concerned about is that if main event sizes shrink the side events will shrink as well. The most enjoyable part of a GP for me are the daily X round events that pay out based on record.

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I agree. More and more as SCG improves their tour (except for the whole making legacy less relevant piece) the best reason to go to a GP if you're not a pro is the 0.004% chance that you could actually go 13-2 and get a pro tour invite and if you care more about EV than a pro tour invite SCG events are better in many ways.

Side note: I love parody accounts and here is a new one on twitter:

https://twitter.com/WOTCstaff

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
I agree. More and more as SCG improves their tour (except for the whole making legacy less relevant piece) the best reason to go to a GP if you're not a pro is the 0.004% chance that you could actually go 13-2 and get a pro tour invite and if you care more about EV than a pro tour invite SCG events are better in many ways.

Side note: I love parody accounts and here is a new one on twitter:

https://twitter.com/WOTCstaff

Pretty amusing that WOTC recently started requiring their employees to include #WOTCstaff on social media posts yet they didn't take that name on social media accounts.

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
While I to enjoy SCG events their EV isn't really anybody after considering travel expenses, hotel food, etc.. for the payout involved, unless you are part of a team or a pro (which usually are also part of teams) where the team that sponsors you covers at least a portion of these expenses it's really more about going for the experience of like a magic convention and frankly this is what WOTC should make GP's more about as well as petter prize payout.

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Good luck to any of you going to any event run by Past Times. They really suck at it and aren't trying to get better. Why WotC still allows them to run events but dumps Legion is beyond me.

I agree with the LandDestroyer's sentiment on SCG events. If it weren't for these events, I would pretty much bow out of major events. That SCG doesn't get to do GP Charlotte next year really makes me sad. That cluster wasn't their fault from what I understand.

@Vegas, I don't get how you think that? They run their events with their focus and energy on the main event. It's the way I like it. Main even participants are capped. There are just enough vendors there if you forgot some random cards, you're looking to pick up something nice or you just need to dump some stuff. Having artists is nice I guess, but if you want cards signed, you can pretty much mail cards to any artist you would like year-round. Same goes for buying their art.

I honestly don't get how SCG manages to run a better event than Wizards.

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Originally posted by chaos021:
I honestly don't get how SCG manages to run a better event than Wizards.

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I think the only events wizards runs are pro tours. They aren't even the tournament organizer for the super Sunday series finals that they hold in their own building. I assume they do this to skirt legal responsibilities.

Wizards does provide the cash prizes for GP. They provide a bunch of promotional material (banners and such). They sometimes provide the video coverage.

I assume SCG is so much better because they do everything themselves and they've been doing it almost every weekend for years.

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Originally posted by chaos021:
A couple things:

Good luck to any of you going to any event run by Past Times. They really suck at it and aren't trying to get better. Why WotC still allows them to run events but dumps Legion is beyond me.

I agree with the LandDestroyer's sentiment on SCG events. If it weren't for these events, I would pretty much bow out of major events. That SCG doesn't get to do GP Charlotte next year really makes me sad. That cluster wasn't their fault from what I understand.

@Vegas, I don't get how you think that? They run their events with their focus and energy on the main event. It's the way I like it. Main even participants are capped. There are just enough vendors there if you forgot some random cards, you're looking to pick up something nice or you just need to dump some stuff. Having artists is nice I guess, but if you want cards signed, you can pretty much mail cards to any artist you would like year-round. Same goes for buying their art.

I honestly don't get how SCG manages to run a better event than Wizards.

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http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/announcement-day-2016-08-31

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Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by iccarus:
Announcement day. 2017 is the year of Nicol Bolas.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/announcement-day-2016-08-31

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Vehicles are meh at this point. That they just turn into creatures isn't very flavorful. I feel like creatures should have attached to them rather than just tapping to activate.

"India" setting seems like a miss. As far as I can tell from what I've seen the only Indian things about the plane are the dress style, character names, and look of the humans*. All very superficial stuff. I would have been much more interested in a plane based off Indian mythology.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
Vehicles are meh at this point. That they just turn into creatures isn't very flavorful. I feel like creatures should have attached to them rather than just tapping to activate.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
you mean equipment? I'm fairly sure they needed a mechanic that makes them distinct from equipment. Elephants and dogs and what not driving cars.... eh

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
New Chandra is nuts

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