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Originally posted by Tranderas:
There's a reason rounds allow for 50 mins of play. If you don't like it, I suppose you could try Vintage, where every game lasts 2 minutes, or Standard, where every game will last 40.

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
There's a reason rounds allow for 50 mins of play. If you don't like it, I suppose you could try Vintage, where every game lasts 2 minutes, or Standard, where every game will last 40.

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
I suppose you could try Vintage, where every game lasts 2 minutes, or Standard, where [b]every game will last 40.

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I LOL'ed at this !

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Originally posted by mm1983:
Some Vintage games last 2 minutes if you pull off a turn 1 combo without it being countered or a combo piece being discarded from your hand which happens 9 out of 10 times. Most cards are restricted in Vintage which makes it hard enough in itself to pull off a turn 1 win.

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Originally posted by oneofchaos:

Some standard games last 5 minutes. I don't get what you are saying.

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I was just saying that most Vintage combo decks can win on turn 1 but sometimes rely on having all 4 or 5 cards in the opening hand which usually can't be done and can easily be shut down just with a Force of Will or with any Duress type of card if your opponent goes first.

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where every game lasts 2 minutes

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Originally posted by BusDriver:
You obviously don't play Vintage or know anything about Vintage.

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Tranderas NOOOOOOO....

If it makes you all feel better, almost all of my limited matches last about 8-10 minutes regardless of the outcome.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
Tranderas NOOOOOOO....

If it makes you all feel better, almost all of my limited matches last about 8-10 minutes regardless of the outcome.

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Dude I just don't get how we got an entire page of off-topic posts about one little part of my post instead of focusing on the on-topic part of my post where I suggested that the power level of Mystical Tutor was fine and that the banning wasn't needed.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
The banning of Mystical Tutor was not to target Reanimator. If they felt it was overpowered, they would have simply clicked "undo" and rebanned Entomb. The deck did not exist in any competitive form prior to this. Plus, I believe ANT to be a more broken deck than Reanimator. Reanimator, however awesome it may be, still relies on the yard in order to function. Hence, it has a vulnerability from the get-go. Leyline, Crypt, Relic, etc, force it to rely on the Show and Tells, which are much slower.

ANT, on the other hand, is annoying to play with because it is too good. I've been on the receiving end of it a few times, and frankly I think it's worse than watching a guy playing T1 Charbelcher (don't know if this still gets played, I quit T1 a while ago, but you get the idea). A couple weeks ago, I was watching a game where an ANT deck was squaring off against what I guess was Evagreen (heavy black control cards like Hymn, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Hyppies, with green splash for things like goyf or pulse). Anyway, Ant took an early Thoughtseize, losing his Ad Nauseam, and was down and out from there. Dropped most of his hand in the form of lands, Lotus Petals, LEDs, and discarded the rest, and was sitting at about 12. Game was pretty much over at this point, but ANT top-decked into a Tutor. Next turn, game over. Now I get this happens, where a deck finds what it needs and turns the tables, but it seems to happen a little to frequently with ANT. I think the creature based ANT or Doomsday decks are kinda cool, so I look forward to seeing those pop up again, but in its current form, it's just not fun. I like the banning of the Tutor, so long as we get to keep Worldly and Enlightened.

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Can we ban like lightning bolt and price of progress? I mean my opponent topdecked those and I lost.

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Originally posted by oneofchaos:

He topdecked a mystical tutor, NOT the card he needed. It cost him a blue mana and a draw phase to set up the win. How is that broken?

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Originally posted by mm1983:
He can still cast Mystical Tutor then Brainstorm to draw what he searched for.

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Originally posted by mm1983:
He can still cast Mystical Tutor then Brainstorm to draw what he searched for.

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So because of two-card synergy we should ban it? Why not ban Counterbalance, then, because you can put stuff back in the correct order with Top? The same logic applies.

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
So because of two-card synergy we should ban it? Why not ban Counterbalance, then, because you can put stuff back in the correct order with Top? The same logic applies.

Coincidentally, speaking of Top, you end up using Tops as often as Brainstorm or Ponder to finish the win in Saitou ANT because of a lack of blue mana available...so maybe that's the broken card. I mean, look at it. Sort the top three for one colorless, and then you can draw one of them! OMG! Ridiculous *takes off sarcasm hat*

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Originally posted by Tranderas:

So because of two-card synergy we should ban it? Why not ban Counterbalance, then, because you can put stuff back in the correct order with Top? The same logic applies.

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I have no problem with using multiple cards for a win. Vintage has restricted every single decent blue draw spell but has still made it possible to pull off a turn 1 win. Being able to play 4 of each legal draw spell that can be played in Legacy is to make up for not being able to play Mystical Tutor.

There is no need to ban Counterbalance if Top was already banned which it is for Extended since it was a powerful deck in Extended but I'm assuming the deck isn't strong enough for Legacy since Top wasn't banned in Legacy.

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Originally posted by mm1983:
There is no need to ban Counterbalance if Top was already banned which it is for Extended since it was a powerful deck in Extended but I'm assuming the deck isn't strong enough for Legacy since Top wasn't banned in Legacy.

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It, in combination with other cards, has made numerous Tier 1 decks come to life; the finals of last year's Legacy GP in Chicago, IL, was counterbalance vs counterbalance. It is quite a bit stronger in legacy because there's really only a few cards that are viable that have a CC of over 3: Natural Order, Force, the reanimator creatures (but those don't get cast), Sower of Temptation and arguably Jace/Elspeth. The problems it faces in legacy are: How long it takes to set up and the popularity of Merfolk. The fact that it takes 2-4 turns to set up a soft lock means a deck like Goblins or Zoo is going to blast the player to tatters before he can even do anything about it. Merfolk plays just as many counterspells as Counterbalance, including a spell that costs one mana to hardcast and hits both the control condition and the win (Spell Snare hitting Goyf and Counterbalance).

Counterbalance-Top has gone into numerous shells over the years, including Landstill (Standstill and manlands), Bant CB (many variants; the most popular involved Rhox War Monk, Goyf, sometimes Trygon Predator and Trinket Mage so it could run 1-of Needle and EE; these decks will often splash a single Volcanic Island for the red to put EE at 4 and hit enemy Sowers and other minor threats); Natural Order (running NO into Progenitus), Painter CB (use CB to stall long enough for the Painter combo) and others. The current form of the deck is Thopter Countertop, running UW with Jace and the thopter foundry-sword of the meek combo that was just banned from Extended. Using the thopter-sword shell makes it so that the deck can recover better against aggro (aggro HATES its opponent gaining life) but increases susceptibility to cards like Pithing Needle and Null Rod.