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Author	Topic: "Trading Down" The story of 2 20s.
Trag3dy Member	posted January 29, 2011 12:52 PM So, this is something that has long puzzled me. I wonder why everyone refers this niche phrase whenever they are trading something older for something newer. What often puzzles me even more is the idea of getting a premium in doing so. Theoretically, the general idea is that the older stuff is worth more and will always be worth more than say standard stuff because standard stuff drops in price when it rotates. While this is certainly true 95% of the time (See Tarmogoyf) but what happens when an older card gets banned/restricted, aka "rotates out". Now before pressing on, I completely understand the concept of X card being $40 and I am trading it for 4 $10 cards, so obviously your trading "down" so to speak. But the trend I have noticed as of late is it being tagged to anything that is out of print that is Legacy/Vintage playable. To better understand my complete befuddlement to this topic allow me to create an example(s). Firstly, the single most sought after card in MTG for the last year.........Underground Sea....ha. J/K it's a Standard card. a la Jace, the Mind Sculptor. If you believe this to be an error on my part, you A: Just started playing yesterday B: Have been in outer space for the last 2 years C: Don't really play/trade competitively D: Are a MR/MRS. Dumass Every extra Jace I get, I sell it. Easy money. It's pretty sweet. $80 in the bank. So as selling goes(for those of us that do sell extra stock) we sell cardboard for greenbacks. The universal symbol of wealth and well being. $$$, you know what I am saying. Let's say I sell a few standard cards say worth $10 each and make $40. Sweet. 40 dollars, 2 20's, awesome. Now, let's say I sell an EX- revised bayou for $40. Sweet, 40 dollars, 2 20's.....but wait,...these are the SAME 2 20's I could get for standard cards?!?! RIDICULOUS~! I demand more money for this card it's old! :/ While I realize my example may not be the most perfect of examples I hope it clearly displayed my thought process on the subject. To summarize this rather lengthy rant,(quite possibly my longest post in the 10 years or so I have been on Motl) my $40 of standard cards and your $40 of Legacy/Vintage cards will still get us both 2 20's at the end of the day. I would gladly take some feedback/thoughts of what you guys think about this topic.
wjuseck Member	posted January 29, 2011 12:56 PM I see the point, but flipped Standard cards represent more time-sensitive work than Legacy cards. Something like Primeval Titan will be worth $40 today and will drop a lot after it rotates (or sooner if it falls out of favor). That means you NEED to move it in 6-12 months to get value out of it. If I hold onto that Bayou, I have no urgency at all to sell it, which decreases the amount of work I need to do on a schedule. It is also more likely to increase in value long term (as it has). [Edited 1 times, lastly by wjuseck on January 29, 2011]
oneofchaos Member	posted January 29, 2011 01:14 PM Anyone who didn't see survival being banned was totally foolish. Other than that old cards don't "rotate out". More likely they are hated out by newer cards which are either simply better or deny them completely. Now if you purchase a bunch of type 2 cards, don't keep up on things and get busy with schoolwork, a girlfriend, life, a job, etc you WILL guaranteed be losing out. Do the same thing with 95% of any card before tempest? You are looking to gain by your inactivity with magic. I hope you realize now 40=40 is a true statement with your bayou for 2 twenty dollar cards in standard (Koth). However, most people look slightly into the future as they are not stores who can flip product over in days time. If you can that is totally fine as it seems you can with your Jace sales. However, don't try to get people's older cards for newer cards as the majority of people have this mentality.
AlmostGrown Member	posted January 29, 2011 01:23 PM The one problem with your story, is that in a year Jace will be around 50-60, and my (Insert $80 eternal staple here) will still be $80. As was said before, if you want to make the most money out of your newer cards, you have to move them fast. __________________ send ref checks, paypal payment or any questions to the email in my profile! Serra Angel Count: 224 Nightmare Count: 95
airwalk Member	posted January 29, 2011 01:24 PM Let's say I have 20 American (legacy) and a 20 Canadian (standard) bill, right now, if we traded, it's a pretty even trade, the Canadian bill is worth a bit less at the moment but not enough to worry about. If we cashed our 20's out into Gold, we would have about the same ammount of gold (real cash). Later on down the road, the American bill is probably going to be worth more then the Canadian one as has been the case for most of the past 10 years. Is it safe to trade your American bill for a Canadian one straight up? At the moment it is, they can both get us the same ammount of gold/silver/copper if you were to cash them in right now. But if you were to hold onto the American bill you will likely be able to buy more raw material with it in a few years than you will if you save the Canadian one. It's a combination of risk and time when you trade Legacy stuff for Standard stuff, especially if you're not a huge trader. I don't look at cards in the short term and try to make money off Type 2 stuff because it's too much effort and too short a window of time (in my opinion as someone who doesn't dedicate all their time to following standard price trends) to do so compared to Legacy cards (which can be done with very little effort and time comparitivly speaking). [Edited 2 times, lastly by airwalk on January 29, 2011]
WeedIan Member	posted January 29, 2011 01:26 PM As a card ages the quantity that exist in the hands of current players decreases. More Jaces exist than Underground Seas, which could inline where the premium is. __________________ Member Since 03/28/2001 10000+ posts 3rd in posts in Ontario 15th in posts on MOTL Top 5 in Refs in Ontario (by people who location posted)
rats60 Member	posted January 29, 2011 03:16 PM quote: Originally posted by AlmostGrown: The one problem with your story, is that in a year Jace will be around 50-60, and my (Insert $80 eternal staple here) will still be $80. As was said before, if you want to make the most money out of your newer cards, you have to move them fast. Jace will be more like 30-40. Most of the time, I just tell people that I don't trade my Legacy cards for Type 2. Type 2 cards, including Jace TMS are easy to find. Legacy cards are not and in general the older they are, the harder they are to find. This wasn't always the case, I used to not care about trading stuff newer than Legends/Duals, but since the popularity of Legacy has exploded, that stuff (FOWs, Wastelands, ect) are difficult to find. If someone really wants to trade Type 2 for Legacy, they should offer a premium ~10%. Otherwise, just sell your cards and buy the ones you want. The effort of selling and the risk of Type 2 cards losing value should be worth at least 10%, IMO. It's not just rotation, but also when a hot card is no longer in a hot deck, such as Baneslayer Angel, it can lose much of its value.
Tha Gunslinga Moderator	posted January 29, 2011 08:00 PM All I hear is "meow meow meow meow meow." Can we give up on these "other people don't trade the way I like to trade" threads already? __________________ Ebay problems? File a claim, leave a neg, buy on MOTL.
Volcanon Member	posted January 29, 2011 08:12 PM quote: Originally posted by airwalk: Let's say I have 20 American (legacy) and a 20 Canadian (standard) bill, right now, if we traded, it's a pretty even trade, the Canadian bill is worth a bit less at the moment but not enough to worry about. If we cashed our 20's out into Gold, we would have about the same ammount of gold (real cash). Later on down the road, the American bill is probably going to be worth more then the Canadian one as has been the case for most of the past 10 years. Is it safe to trade your American bill for a Canadian one straight up? At the moment it is, they can both get us the same ammount of gold/silver/copper if you were to cash them in right now. But if you were to hold onto the American bill you will likely be able to buy more raw material with it in a few years than you will if you save the Canadian one. It's a combination of risk and time when you trade Legacy stuff for Standard stuff, especially if you're not a huge trader. I don't look at cards in the short term and try to make money off Type 2 stuff because it's too much effort and too short a window of time (in my opinion as someone who doesn't dedicate all their time to following standard price trends) to do so compared to Legacy cards (which can be done with very little effort and time comparitivly speaking). Actually, the USD may well be lower than CND for quite some time. Printing more greenbacks has a way of doing that.
Mr.C Member	posted January 29, 2011 08:23 PM quote: Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga: All I hear is "meow meow meow meow meow." Can we give up on these "other people don't trade the way I like to trade" threads already? lol. But, yeah, it takes a lot more work to sell 8 $10 cards than a $80 card. Likewise, in your example, Goyf was almost $60 when in Standard. He's $40 now. __________________ #1 in posts from Brazil! Got any Portuguese Foils? Post on my list or email me at valter.cid@gmail.com !
TimeBeing Member	posted January 30, 2011 01:10 AM quote: Originally posted by WeedIan: As a card ages the quantity that exist in the hands of current players decreases. More Jaces exist than Underground Seas, which could inline where the premium is. this kind of hits it on the head. Not everyone sells there cards, or has any plans to sell there cards. It's easier to find some who has a Primeval Titan, or even open one in a pack if you draft or play sealed. Your not ever going to open a Dual Land (minus Zen Treasure) and your going to find a lot few people who have them in there trade binders. So those who don't play type 2 or flip cards constantly for cash, see the Dual and much harder to come by and much hard to get more of and thus see it as having more "value" then a bunch of high value type 2 or newer stuff. And those of us who don't need the cards for T2 (EDH, Vintage) will just wait till the rotate and drop in price.
cnmotl Member	posted January 31, 2011 02:08 PM quote: Originally posted by Mr.C: lol. But, yeah, it takes a lot more work to sell 8 $10 cards than a $80 card. Likewise, in your example, Goyf was almost $60 when in Standard. He's $40 now. Goyf is 48 on ebay right now. It never broke 40 on ebay when it was standard legal.
Tranderas Member	posted January 31, 2011 03:00 PM quote: Originally posted by Trag3dy: D: Are a MR/MRS. Dumass What slinga said. Remember, folks: In processing information always consider bias from the source.
coolio Member	posted January 31, 2011 03:06 PM quote: Originally posted by Trag3dy: Let's say I sell a few standard cards say worth $10 each and make $40. Sweet. 40 dollars, 2 20's, awesome. Now, let's say I sell an EX- revised bayou for $40. Sweet, 40 dollars, 2 20's.....but wait,...these are the SAME 2 20's I could get for standard cards?!?! RIDICULOUS~! I demand more money for this card it's old! :/ I got these 100 10$ bills here, or 10 100$ bills here for your thousand dollar bill.. deal? same face value of a thousand.. © __________________ Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong. -Christopher Hitchens Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -Seneca the Younger
mm1983 Member	posted January 31, 2011 04:09 PM Standard/extended cards sell more consistantly than older legacy or vintage cards. It's really a rare occasion to sell something like duals, power, FOW, Tarmogoyf, etc at an event where the main tournament is either extended or standard. Point being, for $80 10 Jace TMS will sell before 1 Underground Sea will for $80. For long time players who also play type 2 I have also seen at events people who trade duals and other high end beta/unlimited cards for current type 2 cards at the time that they needed to play their deck in the tournament that day.
sammyt125 Member	posted January 31, 2011 04:26 PM quote: Originally posted by coolio: I got these 100 10$ bills here, or 10 100$ bills here for your thousand dollar bill.. deal? same face value of a thousand.. © If you wanted the hundreds and I wanted the 10s, why not?
coolio Member	posted January 31, 2011 04:35 PM quote: Originally posted by sammyt125: If you wanted the hundreds and I wanted the 10s, why not? re-read my post.. © __________________ Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong. -Christopher Hitchens Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -Seneca the Younger
sammyt125 Member	posted January 31, 2011 05:01 PM quote: Originally posted by coolio: re-read my post.. © I guess I read it as a situation that made little sense instead of one that made absolutely no sense. My bad. [Edited 1 times, lastly by sammyt125 on January 31, 2011]
AlmostGrown Member	posted January 31, 2011 05:18 PM quote: Originally posted by coolio: re-read my post.. © I'm definetly missing something here __________________ send ref checks, paypal payment or any questions to the email in my profile! Serra Angel Count: 226 Nightmare Count: 95
sammyt125 Member	posted January 31, 2011 05:23 PM quote: Originally posted by AlmostGrown: [QUOTE]Originally posted by coolio: re-read my post.. © I'm definetly missing something here [/QUOTE] Thousand dollar bills are worth more than a thousand dollars. I had to read it a couple times, too.
coolio Member	posted January 31, 2011 05:27 PM quote: Originally posted by sammyt125: Thousand dollar bills are worth more than a thousand dollars. gratz, u got the point of my post rebutting the OP © __________________ Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong. -Christopher Hitchens Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -Seneca the Younger
sammyt125 Member	posted January 31, 2011 05:43 PM quote: Originally posted by coolio: gratz, u got the point of my post rebutting the OP © Could you explain your rebuttal to us simple folk? I don't understand what the face value of a Magic card is. Is a Savannah Lions worth more that a Savannah because you get the extra "Lions" on the card?
AlmostGrown Member	posted January 31, 2011 06:21 PM quote: Originally posted by sammyt125: Could you explain your rebuttal to us simple folk? I don't understand what the face value of a Magic card is. Is a Savannah Lions worth more that a Savannah because you get the extra "Lions" on the card? You're looking at it the wrong way. You see $10 bills quite often, and $100 are plentiful in circulation. But a $1000 bill? You'd be hard pressed to find one of those. __________________ send ref checks, paypal payment or any questions to the email in my profile! Serra Angel Count: 226 Nightmare Count: 95
sammyt125 Member	posted January 31, 2011 06:53 PM quote: Originally posted by AlmostGrown: You're looking at it the wrong way. You see $10 bills quite often, and $100 are plentiful in circulation. But a $1000 bill? You'd be hard pressed to find one of those. Ahhhhhhh, that makes sense.
rats60 Member	posted February 01, 2011 08:21 AM quote: Originally posted by AlmostGrown: You're looking at it the wrong way. You see $10 bills quite often, and $100 are plentiful in circulation. But a $1000 bill? You'd be hard pressed to find one of those. Exactly. If you are looking to trading newer cards that are easy to find for something that is old and rare, you should expect to give a premium for it.

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