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Author Topic:   Does colorless mana exist?
iaa@yep.com
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posted March 07, 2011 06:30 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iaa@yep.com Click Here to Email iaa@yep.com Send a private message to iaa@yep.com Click to send iaa@yep.com an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iaa@yep.com's Have/Want ListView iaa@yep.com's Have/Want List
Sorry for this basic question, but it is a hard question to me: does colorless mana exist?
I mean... if there are 5 basic mana colors (blue, red, green, white, black), and artifact, letĄs suppose, 4-costing, can be paid with 2 red and 2 white, as-an-ex., but could also be paid with colorless mana? let's say, mana produced by colorless fonts, such as those produced by certain lands.
in affirmative case, isnt that a sixth colour?

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Uthaedeol
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posted March 07, 2011 06:38 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Uthaedeol Click Here to Email Uthaedeol Send a private message to Uthaedeol Click to send Uthaedeol an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by iaa@yep.com:
...letĄs suppose, 4-costing, can be paid with 2 red and 2 white, as-an-ex., but could also be paid with colorless mana? ...

This I can't make sense of.

In any case, colorless means "having no color". So colorless is definetly not a sixth color.

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JoshSherman
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posted March 07, 2011 06:39 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JoshSherman Click Here to Email JoshSherman Send a private message to JoshSherman Click to send JoshSherman an Instant MessageVisit JoshSherman's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View JoshSherman's Trade Auction or SaleView JoshSherman's Trade Auction or Sale
No, it's not a color. You could get into a "abscence of all color is a color" discussion, but for this specific case of Magic: the Gathering, it would be incorrect. Sure, it's a type of mana, but it is not a color. You can't choose it as a color for any instance that would require you to choose a color (Voice of All, e.g.).

I don't really understand the part of your question about colorless mana existing, because it seems obvious to me that it does. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Worn Powerstone, Grim Monolith, Mishra's Factory... even Apprentice Wizard! Are you suggesting that even though these cards don't produce colored mana in terms of the game rules, that the mana they produce would have to be colored?

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TimeBeing
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posted March 07, 2011 07:00 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Colorless is a type of mana but not a color of mana. So reflecting pool can make colorless but you can't use colorless to up a engineered explosives.
 
coolio
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posted March 07, 2011 10:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by iaa@yep.com:
Sorry for this basic question, but it is a hard question to me: does colorless mana exist?
I mean... if there are 5 basic mana colors (blue, red, green, white, black), and artifact, letĄs suppose, 4-costing, can be paid with 2 red and 2 white, as-an-ex., but could also be paid with colorless mana? let's say, mana produced by colorless fonts, such as those produced by certain lands.
in affirmative case, isnt that a sixth colour?


moot philosophical question, move along

Š

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mm1983
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posted March 07, 2011 10:45 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
Colorless mana does exist in lands and other permanents that produce colorless mana. Spells and abilities that have colorless mana in their casting or activation costs can be played using any color of mana.
 
iaa@yep.com
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posted March 07, 2011 02:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iaa@yep.com Click Here to Email iaa@yep.com Send a private message to iaa@yep.com Click to send iaa@yep.com an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iaa@yep.com's Have/Want ListView iaa@yep.com's Have/Want List
maybe I didn't express myself properly.
let's suppose that, in future, magic tg designers create a card (or ability) like this:

iaa
artifact creature

casting cost - 4

power 4 toughness 4

iaa casting cost can only be paid with colourless (coloured mana can be used to pay iaa casting cost).

just simply, guys, imagine that card.
according to that, no red, no black blue or white nor green mana could be used to pay that creature cost.
then, colorless mana, would be a mana type apart from coloured mana... or am I wrong?
that's what I meant.

and that is my doubt.

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thror
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posted March 07, 2011 02:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
Over on the wizards site, they are doing a second designer search. One of the contestants submitted that idea. He is no longer in the competition for a job. The point of colorless mana is that is it Generic. There's no reason to complicate it with restrictions like that, when you can just make a card with colored mana symbols.

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iaa@yep.com
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posted March 07, 2011 02:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iaa@yep.com Click Here to Email iaa@yep.com Send a private message to iaa@yep.com Click to send iaa@yep.com an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iaa@yep.com's Have/Want ListView iaa@yep.com's Have/Want List
I had no idea. I simply came across that idea last night.
but... considering Wizards need new ideas for new cards and abilities, "my" idea of casting creatures or artifacts only with "generic" mana doesnt seem so useless... in my opinion.

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airwalk
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posted March 07, 2011 02:28 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for airwalk Send a private message to airwalk Click to send airwalk an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It would be neat, but it would make the cards pretty much unplayable in limited and heck... most formats. Would have been a good idea for the Eldrazi
 
iaa@yep.com
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posted March 07, 2011 02:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iaa@yep.com Click Here to Email iaa@yep.com Send a private message to iaa@yep.com Click to send iaa@yep.com an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iaa@yep.com's Have/Want ListView iaa@yep.com's Have/Want List
well... then, good cards could be created:


generic petal 1
artifact
tap: add any color mana to your pool
generic petal can be payed only with generic mana


...for example.

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Sovarius
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posted March 07, 2011 05:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
It's an interesting enough idea, i'd say personally.

But that kind of restriction would be difficult. There aren't enough generic mana producing lands and artifacts to support a series of cards that can only be played with colorless mana.

They sort of have something similar with where that Eldrazi land provies two colorless mana and can only be used on colorless Eldrazi spells. I think there might have also been mana where it could only be used for artifacts spells, as well? That would be the extent of it though and i would really would not expect Wizards to go full out with it.

I think it'd be cool for a mirrodin type of thing, where artifacts are in abundance. But it's out of flavor. The thing is, colored mana is more powerful; it can be green and it can fill in for generic. Generic mana can pay for generic costs, but it cannot fill in for green.
They'd have to flavor-text-explain away the reason about how some golems hate the mirrodin suns ( and colored mana) and only take their power from the surface of the planet (and colorless mana).

It'd be cool. Just won't happen, i think.

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Havoc Demon
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posted March 07, 2011 09:23 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Havoc Demon Click Here to Email Havoc Demon Send a private message to Havoc Demon Click to send Havoc Demon an Instant MessageVisit Havoc Demon's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Lands like Eldrazi Temple and Mishra's Workshop are probably as far as you can go with lands that produce restrictive colorless mana without it being too narrow to warrant printing.

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Bernek77
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posted March 08, 2011 05:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bernek77 Click Here to Email Bernek77 Send a private message to Bernek77 Click to send Bernek77 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
Colorless is a type of mana but not a color of mana. So reflecting pool can make colorless but you can't use colorless to up a engineered explosives.

Reflecting pool can ONLY be used if you control another land along side of it...

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Harmless
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posted March 08, 2011 02:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Harmless Click Here to Email Harmless Send a private message to Harmless Click to send Harmless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Colorless/generic mana is obviously a type of mana; that can't be denied. But those abilities that produce generic mana don't specifically produce any of the WBURG colors, or else...the card would say that they do.

Even if the process of creating generic mana is some vague alchemy that includes elements of the other colors, it's still a new color, as much as orange is a different color from both red and yellow. So it's either a nondescript amalgamation of colors or it's a "color" in it's own right.

But the whole idea here is largely based on semantics, and there's lots of flavor/mechanic confusion to be had as well.

 
Sovarius
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posted March 08, 2011 03:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
Or it's just colorless.
Who said this alchemy is going to use elements of other colors? What if it's just colorless, non elemental, non aligned, invisble mana?

Besides if we are going to start getting more technical than we should be; black and white are not colors.

I can't even tell if we're talking about Magic or science anymore.

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Harmless
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posted March 08, 2011 05:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Harmless Click Here to Email Harmless Send a private message to Harmless Click to send Harmless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sovarius:
Or it's just colorless.
Who said this alchemy is going to use elements of other colors? What if it's just colorless, non elemental, non aligned, invisble mana?

Besides if we are going to start getting more technical than we should be; black and white are not colors.

I can't even tell if we're talking about Magic or science anymore.


Haha, yeah. Like I said, it's a fine line and based on interpretations of words. And I meant that we really don't know if it's supposed to be a combination of colors or if it's a completely neutral type of mana. Well, maybe they explained it in a book or something, but I don't read those so I guess I should refrain from speculating...

 
Sovarius
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posted March 08, 2011 06:30 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
That's true, but also think of some of the artifact mana. Darksteel Citadel, ur-Golem's Eye/Sisay's Ring, Thran Dynamo, Mind Stone. They seem pretty specifically neutral. Then again, so would Darksteel Ingot.
Strip Mine, Wasteland, Quicksand are also pretty clearly incapable of being multiple colors at once.
Ashnod's Altar seems like the one could be "mixed colors somehow equals no colors".

Sol Ring really could be some sort of RW holy fire relic...

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Ceyx69
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posted March 18, 2011 09:15 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Ceyx69 Click Here to Email Ceyx69 Send a private message to Ceyx69 Click to send Ceyx69 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Mishra's Workshop
 

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