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Author Topic:   Legacy counters
Soldier Boi
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posted July 11, 2011 12:05 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Soldier Boi Click Here to Email Soldier Boi Send a private message to Soldier Boi Click to send Soldier Boi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
There are just so many good ones, how do you decide which ones to use?

Most used from what I've seen.
Force of Will - Its FOW
Mental Misstep - great vs almost everything
Counterspell - the basics
Spell Snare - for goyf and hymn
Spell Pierce - good early game vs control decks
Daze - amazing early game vs everything
Flusterstorm - good vs storm decks (high tide and ANT)

 
WeedIan
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posted July 11, 2011 12:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
Stifle is likely better vs Storm than Flusterstorm is.

It depends on the metagame, Counterspell isn't played in Legacy ever since you can play Drain since there is no drawback.

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otrtrader
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posted July 11, 2011 12:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for otrtrader Click Here to Email otrtrader Send a private message to otrtrader Click to send otrtrader an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:

It depends on the metagame, Counterspell isn't played in Legacy ever since you can play Drain since there is no drawback.



Mana drain is banned in legacy....
and forbid is awesome
 
SageShadows
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posted July 11, 2011 12:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for SageShadows Click Here to Email SageShadows Send a private message to SageShadows Click to send SageShadows an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Stifle is likely better vs Storm than Flusterstorm is.

It depends on the metagame, Counterspell isn't played in Legacy ever since you can play Drain since there is no drawback.


There's just the small problem of Mana Drain being banned in Legacy.
EDIT: Damn, beat to the punch.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by SageShadows on July 11, 2011]

 
Soldier Boi
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posted July 11, 2011 12:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Soldier Boi Click Here to Email Soldier Boi Send a private message to Soldier Boi Click to send Soldier Boi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I never seen anyone play forbid. What deck would that help in? Its cancel with buy back.

I seem someone play mana leak on mtgo yesterday I was shocked. It's actually pretty good since most decks only have like 10'mana producing lands.

 
WeedIan
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posted July 11, 2011 12:27 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.

 
fluffycow
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posted July 11, 2011 12:38 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for fluffycow Click Here to Email fluffycow Send a private message to fluffycow Click to send fluffycow an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View fluffycow's Have/Want ListView fluffycow's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.


You might want to reword that before you get hated on

 
James_Hetfield2
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posted July 11, 2011 01:13 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for James_Hetfield2 Click Here to Email James_Hetfield2 Send a private message to James_Hetfield2 Click to send James_Hetfield2 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View James_Hetfield2's Have/Want ListView James_Hetfield2's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.


You are making it worse

Drain is insane.

Can you imagine the price of Drain if it was legacy legal?!?!

 
otrtrader
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posted July 11, 2011 02:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for otrtrader Click Here to Email otrtrader Send a private message to otrtrader Click to send otrtrader an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Forbid is played by ppl who can't get money counters, I know quite a few ppl who use them.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by otrtrader on July 11, 2011]
 
gcowhsu
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posted July 11, 2011 02:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for gcowhsu Click Here to Email gcowhsu Click to send gcowhsu an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gcowhsu's Trade Auction or SaleView gcowhsu's Trade Auction or Sale
Mana leak isn't that strong in Legacy because a lot of the spells are cheap so it's easy to get out of range for it and have them lose their speed just to hope for a counter. Run Daze over Leak so you can still be aggressive and have room to counter. At worst it becomes fodder for FOW.

I would not run Daze without FOW or it can become a dead card very fast. Mental Misstep has made Daze a lot better since you can stop turn 1 hierarchs on the draw. It has also made spell snare more relevant since you can stop 1 and 2 cc cards. However, at the same time it can be stopped by opposing missteps.

Misdirection is better against hymn and goyf can just be killed.

I would use flusterstorm over stifle since stifle can be misstepped. Usually SB spell pierce is good enough vrs ant and is more useful against Show and tell/hive mind stuff/control decks... I don't think flusterstorm has a place in Legacy.

Most decks go
4 force
4 misstep
2-4 daze/spell snare

SB
2-3 spell pierce

It looks like Daze is dying though because many decks run 20+ land nowadays.

 
yukizora
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posted July 11, 2011 02:05 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for yukizora Click Here to Email yukizora Send a private message to yukizora Click to send yukizora an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Here are IMO the play-worthy counters for legacy (ultimately depends on your strategy, some deep blue decks will probably run the most expensive ones)

Force of Will
Daze
Mental Misstep
Commandeer
Counterspell
Stifle
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Misdirection

And that should be it!

[Edited 1 times, lastly by yukizora on July 11, 2011]

 
airwalk
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posted July 11, 2011 03:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for airwalk Send a private message to airwalk Click to send airwalk an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by James_Hetfield2:
You are making it worse

Drain is insane.

Can you imagine the price of Drain if it was legacy legal?!?!


I'd love to Drain into Fact or Fictions all day long like I used to do in Vintage, good times .

On Topic: Circular Logic? =p Maybe Madness will be good again someday.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by airwalk on July 11, 2011]

 
coasterdude84
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posted July 11, 2011 05:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coasterdude84's Trade Auction or SaleView coasterdude84's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by airwalk:
I'd love to Drain into Fact or Fictions all day long like I used to do in Vintage, good times .

On Topic: Circular Logic? =p Maybe Madness will be good again someday.


Actually ran into a Circular Logic the other day. I had forgotten just how annoying it was.

Disagreeing with gcowhsu, I think Misstep has actually made Daze a little less playable. Daze was a popular choice because it could get you around turn 1 and 2 plays while still allowing you to play spells. The problem is you're now a land drop behind, which early game, is like being an entire turn back. So while you may have Dazed that Sinkhole, it still more or less did its job. Now, if you're on the draw, you can still stop turn 1 plays with Misstep without losing any board position, and with Spell Snare, you have an answer for their turn 2 play. Though I do agree, most decks go or should go:
4x Force of Will
4x Misstep
2-4x Spell Snare

Stifle has some utility in Legacy. Even if you're not stopping a storm combo, it can be used annoyingly to stop Fetches and Wastelands. And if it gets Misstepped, better that than a critical Swords or Brainstorm. Whether it's maindeck worthy is open to debate, but I believe it could be justified.

 
revenger
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posted July 12, 2011 11:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for revenger Click Here to Email revenger Click to send revenger an Instant MessageVisit revenger's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View revenger's Have/Want ListView revenger's Have/Want List
They might not be tourney staples or big $$$, but i always had a fondness for Dissipate & Logic Knot. I once dissipated a teekas dragon, opponent threw his deck across the room. lol and what about disperse or dispel? not worthy enough to go ina deck?
 
coasterdude84
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posted July 13, 2011 06:57 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coasterdude84's Trade Auction or SaleView coasterdude84's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by revenger:
They might not be tourney staples or big $$$, but i always had a fondness for Dissipate & Logic Knot. I once dissipated a teekas dragon, opponent threw his deck across the room. lol and what about disperse or dispel? not worthy enough to go ina deck?

Dissipate and Logic Knot are strictly worse than Counterspell, so outside of their respective sets and possibly EDH, they probably won't see much play. As for Disperse and Dispel, bounce spells don't see much play unless they're recursive, and even then they fell out of favor a few years ago (see Tradewind Rider). Dispel is less useful than Spell Pierce, as most of the time unexpectedly raising the cost of a spell by 2 is enough to stop it.

 
simbayu
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posted July 13, 2011 06:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for simbayu Send a private message to simbayu Click to send simbayu an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Force of Will - Good against high velocity decks. Bad for attrition games.
Mental Misstep - Good against decks that play one drops...obviously
Counterspell - Good in pure control decks. Bad in tempo oriented decks.
Spell Snare - Good against decks with a lot of 2 drops which is most legacy decks
Spell Pierce - good vs decks that play high cc instants/sorceries or decks that run all instants/sorceries.
Daze - good in a tempo deck. bad in decks that play 4 drops.
Flusterstorm - good vs storm decks and landstill mirrors.


quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.


Dont be silly. This would be really really good in legacy and a HUGE upgrade to counterspell. The format is slower so people are playing higher cc spells including jace, tms, wrath of god, pernicious deed, etc. Counterspell has been seeing play ever since mental misstep was legal.

[Edited 4 times, lastly by simbayu on July 13, 2011]

 
SageShadows
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posted July 13, 2011 07:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for SageShadows Click Here to Email SageShadows Send a private message to SageShadows Click to send SageShadows an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by simbayu:
Force of Will - Good against high velocity decks. Bad for attrition games.


Not exactly. FoW is horrible against Zoo and pretty damn good in those long protracted games.

 
caquaa
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posted July 13, 2011 10:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by SageShadows:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by simbayu:
Force of Will - Good against high velocity decks. Bad for attrition games.


Not exactly. FoW is horrible against Zoo and pretty damn good in those long protracted games.

[/QUOTE]

So you're saying hes completely wrong, yet don't even offer "proof" to back it up?

In that case, you're wrong... just cause.

 
Sovarius
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posted July 13, 2011 10:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Dissipate and Logic Knot are strictly worse than Counterspell

just because it costs more dones' tmean it's strictly worse. that's not what strictly means.

those two cards have additional effects so obviousl the costs are different. whatever card you think is better is just an opininon.

but to whomever asked about those; legacy doens't really have a use for those effects. you dont need to remove cards in your yards unless you accidentally dump phage in there with buried alive like me. and most everything you can counter probalby isns't coming back from the yard anyway so there's not reason to pay more mana. disapate is basically better than counterpsell in terms of effects but it's just extra flashyness.

that costs slows you down so much. if it really weren't such an issues competeitivly peoepl would play last word. that is relevant flashyness but just too expenesive.

 
coasterdude84
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posted July 14, 2011 07:55 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coasterdude84's Trade Auction or SaleView coasterdude84's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Sovarius:
just because it costs more dones' tmean it's strictly worse. that's not what strictly means.

those two cards have additional effects so obviousl the costs are different. whatever card you think is better is just an opininon.

but to whomever asked about those; legacy doens't really have a use for those effects. you dont need to remove cards in your yards unless you accidentally dump phage in there with buried alive like me. and most everything you can counter probalby isns't coming back from the yard anyway so there's not reason to pay more mana. disapate is basically better than counterpsell in terms of effects but it's just extra flashyness.

that costs slows you down so much. if it really weren't such an issues competeitivly peoepl would play last word. that is relevant flashyness but just too expenesive.


When the alternate effects are irrelevant, it's strictly worse. Yes, I understand what you mean, technically only Cancel is strictly worse than counterspell, but when you stop to consider what actually matter in the game, Dissipate's and Logic Knot's side effects almost never will. Thus, we ignore them and look at what we actually net.

 
oneofchaos
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posted July 14, 2011 08:44 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for oneofchaos Click Here to Email oneofchaos Send a private message to oneofchaos Click to send oneofchaos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sovarius:
just because it costs more dones' tmean it's strictly worse. that's not what strictly means.

those two cards have additional effects so obviousl the costs are different. whatever card you think is better is just an opininon.

but to whomever asked about those; legacy doens't really have a use for those effects. you dont need to remove cards in your yards unless you accidentally dump phage in there with buried alive like me. and most everything you can counter probalby isns't coming back from the yard anyway so there's not reason to pay more mana. disapate is basically better than counterpsell in terms of effects but it's just extra flashyness.

that costs slows you down so much. if it really weren't such an issues competeitivly peoepl would play last word. that is relevant flashyness but just too expenesive.


Strictly better/strictly worse doesn't exist anymore. If this is a single magic situation in which one card trumps the other then they are not strictly better/strictly worse.

Lightning bolt vs shock, strictly better or strictly worse?

You are at 3 you opponent is at 2. You aim your burn spell...and it is misdirected.

 
CubFan81
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posted July 14, 2011 10:00 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for CubFan81 Click Here to Email CubFan81 Send a private message to CubFan81 Click to send CubFan81 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View CubFan81's Have/Want ListView CubFan81's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by coasterdude84:
When the alternate effects are irrelevant, it's strictly worse. Yes, I understand what you mean, technically only Cancel is strictly worse than counterspell, but when you stop to consider what actually matter in the game, Dissipate's and Logic Knot's side effects almost never will. Thus, we ignore them and look at what we actually net.

Eh, Counterspell can be Spell Snared. Cancel can't.

Dissipate seems pretty good against Life from the Loam.

 
coasterdude84
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posted July 14, 2011 10:57 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coasterdude84's Trade Auction or SaleView coasterdude84's Trade Auction or Sale
Yes, I'm sure we could all sit around and think up situations where any given card is better than something else. My point is, all of the counter spells recently mentioned (including counterspell) are generally weaker than others within the format, and since you're trying to balance maximum utility with cost, it would unwise to play those cards instead.

Happy?

 
CubFan81
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posted July 14, 2011 01:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for CubFan81 Click Here to Email CubFan81 Send a private message to CubFan81 Click to send CubFan81 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View CubFan81's Have/Want ListView CubFan81's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Yes, I'm sure we could all sit around and think up situations where any given card is better than something else. My point is, all of the counter spells recently mentioned (including counterspell) are generally weaker than others within the format, and since you're trying to balance maximum utility with cost, it would unwise to play those cards instead.

Happy?


Yes.

 
Sovarius
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posted July 14, 2011 01:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
The extra effects being irrelevant still doesn't mean anything. When i say they are irrelevant that is my opinion. I think dissipate has a useless extra effect in the metagame, but just because the meta changes to heavy graveyard manipulation doesn't mean it suddenly becomes "strictly" better or worse than counterspell.
It's worse in your opinion (and believe me, mine as well. it's pretty clearly the 'correct' opinion, if you will).

Lightning Bolt is better than Shock because it does more damage. Just because it can be used against you doesn't mean anything. The point of the card is instant speed damage for one red mana; which does that better?

Cancel is worse than counterspell because it costs more. The point is to counter a spell (not do extra stuff like exile it afterwards) and one does it cheaper by 1 generic. If cancel were 2U then you could argue which is better since that's a different cost entirely, but they both are UU at least.

Cards that are similar but strictly better/worse can be used different in different situations. You COULD say Vapor Snag is dumb to use in multiplayer when you're bouncing your teammates creatures (who have awesome ETB effects) because it hurts them, but when talking about strictly better/worse you comapre the cards. Losing one life puts them closer to losing. If it were temporal Diffusion and bounced a creature for U at instant speed and milled 3 cards, that puts them closer to losing, it's better. Obviously don't play it against any dredge or reanimator decks, but that's a specific situation. Obviously don't hurt your teammates if you doesn't gain you anything, that's a speciic situation. If Temporal Diffusion were UU, bounce a creature at sorcery speed; it's crappier than Unsummon; that's a card difference.

Strictly better or worse is basically irrelevant but a lot of people seem to not even understand what it means so i just don't understand why the term pops up so often. I guess i don't really care, we could talk all day about this but i don't think people are going to change their minds about when they use certain terms.

 

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