It depends on the metagame, Counterspell isn't played in Legacy ever since you can play Drain since there is no drawback.

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Originally posted by WeedIan:

It depends on the metagame, Counterspell isn't played in Legacy ever since you can play Drain since there is no drawback.

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
Stifle is likely better vs Storm than Flusterstorm is.

It depends on the metagame, Counterspell isn't played in Legacy ever since you can play Drain since there is no drawback.

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.

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You are making it worse

Drain is insane.

I would not run Daze without FOW or it can become a dead card very fast. Mental Misstep has made Daze a lot better since you can stop turn 1 hierarchs on the draw. It has also made spell snare more relevant since you can stop 1 and 2 cc cards. However, at the same time it can be stopped by opposing missteps.

Misdirection is better against hymn and goyf can just be killed.

I would use flusterstorm over stifle since stifle can be misstepped. Usually SB spell pierce is good enough vrs ant and is more useful against Show and tell/hive mind stuff/control decks... I don't think flusterstorm has a place in Legacy.

Most decks go
4 force
4 misstep
2-4 daze/spell snare

SB
2-3 spell pierce

Force of Will
Daze
Mental Misstep
Commandeer
Counterspell
Stifle
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Misdirection

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Originally posted by James_Hetfield2:
You are making it worse

Drain is insane.

Can you imagine the price of Drain if it was legacy legal?!?!

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I'd love to Drain into Fact or Fictions all day long like I used to do in Vintage, good times .

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Originally posted by airwalk:
I'd love to Drain into Fact or Fictions all day long like I used to do in Vintage, good times .

On Topic: Circular Logic? =p Maybe Madness will be good again someday.

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Actually ran into a Circular Logic the other day. I had forgotten just how annoying it was.

Disagreeing with gcowhsu, I think Misstep has actually made Daze a little less playable. Daze was a popular choice because it could get you around turn 1 and 2 plays while still allowing you to play spells. The problem is you're now a land drop behind, which early game, is like being an entire turn back. So while you may have Dazed that Sinkhole, it still more or less did its job. Now, if you're on the draw, you can still stop turn 1 plays with Misstep without losing any board position, and with Spell Snare, you have an answer for their turn 2 play. Though I do agree, most decks go or should go:
4x Force of Will
4x Misstep
2-4x Spell Snare

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Originally posted by revenger:
They might not be tourney staples or big $$$, but i always had a fondness for Dissipate & Logic Knot. I once dissipated a teekas dragon, opponent threw his deck across the room. lol and what about disperse or dispel? not worthy enough to go ina deck?

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
While don't i have egg on my face, either way i don't think Drain would be that great in legacy either.

It doesn't add much over Counterspell which doesn't get played.

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Originally posted by simbayu:
Force of Will - Good against high velocity decks. Bad for attrition games.

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Originally posted by SageShadows:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by simbayu:
Force of Will - Good against high velocity decks. Bad for attrition games.

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[/QUOTE]

So you're saying hes completely wrong, yet don't even offer "proof" to back it up?

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Dissipate and Logic Knot are strictly worse than Counterspell

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just because it costs more dones' tmean it's strictly worse. that's not what strictly means.

those two cards have additional effects so obviousl the costs are different. whatever card you think is better is just an opininon.

but to whomever asked about those; legacy doens't really have a use for those effects. you dont need to remove cards in your yards unless you accidentally dump phage in there with buried alive like me. and most everything you can counter probalby isns't coming back from the yard anyway so there's not reason to pay more mana. disapate is basically better than counterpsell in terms of effects but it's just extra flashyness.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
just because it costs more dones' tmean it's strictly worse. that's not what strictly means.

those two cards have additional effects so obviousl the costs are different. whatever card you think is better is just an opininon.

but to whomever asked about those; legacy doens't really have a use for those effects. you dont need to remove cards in your yards unless you accidentally dump phage in there with buried alive like me. and most everything you can counter probalby isns't coming back from the yard anyway so there's not reason to pay more mana. disapate is basically better than counterpsell in terms of effects but it's just extra flashyness.

that costs slows you down so much. if it really weren't such an issues competeitivly peoepl would play last word. that is relevant flashyness but just too expenesive.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
just because it costs more dones' tmean it's strictly worse. that's not what strictly means.

those two cards have additional effects so obviousl the costs are different. whatever card you think is better is just an opininon.

but to whomever asked about those; legacy doens't really have a use for those effects. you dont need to remove cards in your yards unless you accidentally dump phage in there with buried alive like me. and most everything you can counter probalby isns't coming back from the yard anyway so there's not reason to pay more mana. disapate is basically better than counterpsell in terms of effects but it's just extra flashyness.

that costs slows you down so much. if it really weren't such an issues competeitivly peoepl would play last word. that is relevant flashyness but just too expenesive.

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Strictly better/strictly worse doesn't exist anymore. If this is a single magic situation in which one card trumps the other then they are not strictly better/strictly worse.

Lightning bolt vs shock, strictly better or strictly worse?

You are at 3 you opponent is at 2. You aim your burn spell...and it is misdirected.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
When the alternate effects are irrelevant, it's strictly worse. Yes, I understand what you mean, technically only Cancel is strictly worse than counterspell, but when you stop to consider what actually matter in the game, Dissipate's and Logic Knot's side effects almost never will. Thus, we ignore them and look at what we actually net.

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Eh, Counterspell can be Spell Snared. Cancel can't.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Yes, I'm sure we could all sit around and think up situations where any given card is better than something else. My point is, all of the counter spells recently mentioned (including counterspell) are generally weaker than others within the format, and since you're trying to balance maximum utility with cost, it would unwise to play those cards instead.

Happy?

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Lightning Bolt is better than Shock because it does more damage. Just because it can be used against you doesn't mean anything. The point of the card is instant speed damage for one red mana; which does that better?

Cancel is worse than counterspell because it costs more. The point is to counter a spell (not do extra stuff like exile it afterwards) and one does it cheaper by 1 generic. If cancel were 2U then you could argue which is better since that's a different cost entirely, but they both are UU at least.

Cards that are similar but strictly better/worse can be used different in different situations. You COULD say Vapor Snag is dumb to use in multiplayer when you're bouncing your teammates creatures (who have awesome ETB effects) because it hurts them, but when talking about strictly better/worse you comapre the cards. Losing one life puts them closer to losing. If it were temporal Diffusion and bounced a creature for U at instant speed and milled 3 cards, that puts them closer to losing, it's better. Obviously don't play it against any dredge or reanimator decks, but that's a specific situation. Obviously don't hurt your teammates if you doesn't gain you anything, that's a speciic situation. If Temporal Diffusion were UU, bounce a creature at sorcery speed; it's crappier than Unsummon; that's a card difference.