He has proof it was delivered, you have no proof you didn't receive it.

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Originally posted by Thanos:
I don't understand how you can say he jumped the gun by bta'ing you.

He has proof it was delivered, you have no proof you didn't receive it.

Like I said last night, complete and utter bull****.

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I said he jumped the gun a bit because he never tried to work anything out with me. It states in the rules:

"Please attempt to work things out with the person BEFORE you post them here. Do not just post someone on the BTA immediately without contacting the other trader"

Ive mentioned over and over that I was totally willing to work things out as long as it was fair. He wanted me to send my end even though i didnt receive his end, that wasnt fair to both of us, just him. Me not sending him something wasnt fair to both of us either, thats why im sending him half. THATS FAIR. Ryusei never tried to work it out with me. He said he wanted it all, i refused saying i wasnt going to be the only one who lost, he BTAd. In the span of a few hours all of this went down. I would take that as jumping the gun a bit, wouldnt you?

I would have bta'ed you at that point too.

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Originally posted by Thanos:
He has proof it was delivered, asks you to send your end, you say no, what else is he suppose to do?

I would have bta'ed you at that point too.

Don't take my posts personally either please, I'm not trying to attack you.

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Im not taking it personally, contrary to recent public opinion, im actually a pretty nice guy lol.

Ive said that i dont blame him for BTAing me. After the ruling I told Ryusei that all I ever wanted was it to be fair to both of us. I told him that if he would have said "I realize its a crappy situation on both ends, but how about we be fair and split it"? i would have said yes and he would already have 2 volcanics on the way to him. but it didnt happen that way and i dont blame him for him. i could have done things a bit differently just as much as he could have, maybe more(idk).

Signature Confirmation doesn't prove anything either. What is to stop 'someone random' from 'signing' for the package at your doorstep? They don't ask for ID. All I have to do is sign the package with a line across the box and say I never got the package and it's the exact same thing. Or what if I set up an alibi to say I was never home at time XX:YY even though I was?

Signature Confirmation doesn't help anything. Infact, if someone wants to rip you they will rip you no matter what.

I think both parties are telling the truth but Hooksdaddy should have just swallowed the loss because he was at fault for being out of town when it arrived and failing to inform the other person. You should have just swallowed the two extra Volcanic Islands just to maintain your reputation. Are the 2 extra Volcanics worth the potential trades/sales you're going to to lose out on because of this?

I feel this was a poor decision by both the moderators and Hooskdaddy.

That being said, it's hard to fault the moderators too much for this. The rules about "sender's responsibility" are hard to make 100% clear and with the number of trades occurring on MOTL, it's inevitable that things of this nature occur from time to time, and there will never be a perfect solution or ruling. I feel the wrong decision was made here, but clearly there is some justification for making it.

However, I feel Hooskdaddy is clearly in the wrong for not sending out the entirety of his end of the deal (just my opinion of course), and if I were in his position, I would do so without hesitation. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. Acting as if Ryusei did something wrong, let's be realistic here. Sending with DC, I think the vast majority would (at least prior to this) have considered that a more than reasonable way to protect yourself. And doing more than that (signature or whatever else), well clearly there is no way to 100% protect yourself (someone else can sign for it and steal it, someone can claim the package was opened before it got to them and the contents removed, etc. etc.). He, in my (and probably most people's) view, did nothing wrong here.

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Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
Because ryusei being a fairly new member, jumped the gun a bit

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You have to be joking right? According to the post office it was delivered. He has proof. It is not his fault your complex stole it or you were away for a week with it sitting on your doorstep.

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Originally posted by Thanos:
I don't understand how you can say he jumped the gun by bta'ing you.

He has proof it was delivered, you have no proof you didn't receive it.

Like I said last night, complete and utter bull****.

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AGREE 100%

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Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
He wanted me to send my end even though i didnt receive his end

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But YOU DID receive it.

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Originally posted by paragondave:
Ryusei24 didn't make a mistake. If a mistake was made Hooskdaddy made it and then the mods made one. I hope this discussion goes on until the mods get it right.

Definitely influencing people.

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Me and Dave have not always seen eye to eye, but he is 100% right here.

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Originally posted by SolonJhee:
I also think Hooksdaddy should be responsible and it was a poor ruling by the mods.

.....

I think both parties are telling the truth but Hooksdaddy should have just swallowed the loss because he was at fault for being out of town when it arrived and failing to inform the other person.

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Couldn't parties agree:

We agree that delivery confirmation to the recipient's address is an acceptable form of proof, and confirmation that the package was delivered by the USPS shall be proof of its receipt. Nothing in this agreement shall cover the contents or condition of said package.

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Originally posted by WCFmo:
Just thought of this, why does it have to be so black and white when it comes to an agreement (everyone says not responsible for lost or stolen mail would increase)?

Couldn't parties agree:

We agree that delivery confirmation to the recipient's address is an acceptable form of proof, and confirmation that the package was delivered by the USPS shall be proof of its receipt. Nothing in this agreement shall cover the contents or condition of said package.

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Yeah I had a similar idea. Seems like what people want with DC in the first place, so it should be a pretty agreeable term.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
Yeah I had a similar idea. Seems like what people want with DC in the first place, so it should be a pretty agreeable term.

Except for the condition part, I agree. I think that if the buyer receives something and has a dispute with the condition of the cards, or the cards are damaged, or the order got mixed up. A seller is responsible to fix that issue with the buyer. It seems like a logical way to do business anyway.

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That's why it says the agreement is only that the package arrived, if the cards are not all there or in bad condition you don't want to agree to that - i.e. no agreement of the condition/contents of package, just that it was delivered.

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Originally posted by WCFmo:
That's why it says the agreement is only that the package arrived, if the cards are not all there or in bad condition you don't want to agree to that - i.e. no agreement of the condition/contents of package, just that it was delivered.

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You're right. I read your first post incorrectly. Amusing side note, I can't read or write.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
You're right. I read your first post incorrectly. Amusing side note, I can't read or write.

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" :P

quote:

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Originally posted by WCFmo:
"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" :P

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Naw dawg. I got my edumacation!

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Originally posted by I3Iood:
I also believe that both parties are telling the truth, but one party is getting SCREWED because the other party was 100% totally careless and did not give a damn about the other. If you made a deal and there is proof the deal was delivered, please explain how you think that you are not in the wrong here. This is an absolute JOKE that you think you are not at fault, and I will have no problem never ever in a million years dealing with you. You sir have balls.

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Seriously, that is a complete joke. If I have to leave home for a week to go to a funeral and when I come back, I find that the package was delievered but someone stole it out of my mailbox, I'm at fault? Yeah, that's a good one. I would love for anyone to tell me to my face and not on some internet board that I have to think about what will happen to my mail during a personal, family emergency. That is EXACTLY what happened here and anyone calling Hoosdady or anyone out for forgetting something very insignificant during a legit emergency needs to have their head examined.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Seriously, that is a complete joke. If I have to leave home for a week to go to a funeral and when I come back, I find that the package was delievered but someone stole it out of my mailbox, I'm at fault? Yeah, that's a good one. I would love for anyone to tell me to my face and not on some internet board that I have to think about what will happen to my mail during a personal, family emergency. That is EXACTLY what happened here and anyone calling Hoosdady or anyone out for forgetting something very insignificant during a legit emergency needs to have their head examined.

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We are putting a bunch of rules in that effectively don't do anything but make things harder. It's like how the TSA put in all these measures to stop terrorist, but they have done nothing, but make air travel harder. There is always a way around the rules and we are just hoping people don't break them. Adding like Sig Confirmation/Insurance adds another third party into the equation that we need to be responsible for doesn't make sense. I've never dealt with that but it doesn't seem likely that they will hold up their responsibility 100% of the time.

Who seriously opens a package infront of a USPS or UPS guy? They don't wait around long enough for me to crack it AND I usually go inside and open in, just more comfortable for me. Also I have received Sig Confirmation packages where I never signed. They just dropped it off and left.

The person sending needs to have some protection as well. I always add DC to protect myself. In the past for BTA cases I thought that DC has always been enough and have never seen one where sig confirmation or insurance was even brought to the table (granted I don't look every second of everyday since I have been a member).

I think everyone has sent something and the guy on the other end said they never received and refunded or sent again to avoid the BTA.

Silly eh?

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Seriously, that is a complete joke. If I have to leave home for a week to go to a funeral and when I come back, I find that the package was delievered but someone stole it out of my mailbox, I'm at fault? Yeah, that's a good one. I would love for anyone to tell me to my face and not on some internet board that I have to think about what will happen to my mail during a personal, family emergency. That is EXACTLY what happened here and anyone calling Hoosdady or anyone out for forgetting something very insignificant during a legit emergency needs to have their head examined.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
Jaz
Mine do the same thing sometimes too, Ive complained about it as well but it still happens depending on the person delivering it id imagine.

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Yet he just expected the box full of valuables to be at his door when he returned and takes zero responsibility but would be willing to send him 2 (up from 1 originally offered) because he feels bad.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
sending the volc would be out of the goodness of my heart

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quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I would love for anyone to tell me to my face and not on some internet board that I have to think about what will happen to my mail during a personal, family emergency.

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It is funny that you are getting thug on an internet board when you are basically calling people out for what they say on said board.

quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
If I have to leave home for a week to go to a funeral and when I come back, I find that the package was delievered but someone stole it out of my mailbox, I'm at fault?

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quote:

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Originally posted by I3Iood:
It is funny that you are getting thug on an internet board when you are basically calling people out for what they say on said board.

So Me as the sender is at fault that the mail got to your mailbox and got stolen??????????????????????? Please Explain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zakman86:
How do you people not realize that the fault of it really isn't in either of their courts, but rather, the post office's?

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First, We do not know if it was stolen out of mailbox or if it was stolen from in front of the person's door. I am not sure how it is the post office's fault if some idiot comes to my mail box and steals it, but whatever.....I do know it was his fault for leaving for a week with a $300 package coming with NO PLAN on how to get it (leaving is not his fault, but HAVING NO PLAN is 100% his fault) (the reason is irrelevant, do I have to put a clause in my sale list saying I will not send to anyone who is expecting to have an emergency while my package is in transit?).

The real issue here is it was delivered, so the sender's responsibility was upheld. Once it is confirmed delivered, that is the end of the line for the sender.

quote:

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Originally posted by I3Iood:
So Me as the sender is at fault that the mail got to your mailbox and got stolen??????????????????????? Please Explain.

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Simple. I'm away anywhere (I'll even make this example a regular day at work) and mail is delivered. How is it my fault if anyone goes through my mailbox while I am at work? Now if you actually read everything I wrote again, I never once said that the sender should be at fault. But you can't blame the receipt for theft, whether it is from their mailbox, door step, or even the darn post office itself.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Simple. I'm away anywhere (I'll even make this example a regular day at work) and mail is delivered. How is it my fault if anyone goes through my mailbox while I am at work? Now if you actually read everything I wrote again, I never once said that the sender should be at fault. But you can't blame the receipt for theft, whether it is from their mailbox, door step, or even the darn post office itself.

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