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Author
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Topic: To the MOTL community
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 08:43 PM
      
I apologize if this isnt appropriate to post here but I felt it necessary to update this a bit. Even though the below case was ruled in my favor I got a few interesting PMs and posts questioning my integrity in this matter. there were also people supporting me and i thank those people. i had a few nice talks with paragondave and Jazaray about this matter.
Firstly, ive been a member of this community for 13 years and valued every minute of it. I also value my reputation in this community and business.
Second, the only thing I wanted was for the situation to be fair to both of us. It was ruled in my favor that technically Ryusei24 was responsible for the package and I wasnt required to send anything to him. But that wouldnt be fair.
So in the interest of being fair and proving to my neigh-sayers that they were wrong about me, ive decided to send out half of my end(2 volcanics) to Ryusei because thats the right thing to do.In closing, I urge people to try and work things out first because this situation could have been worked out without going to "court" (BTA). http://classic.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005208.html /end public service announcement Justin
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paragondave
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 08:49 PM
 
It might also be prudent to put a disclaimer in your h/w thread, right next to your preference for large deals, stating that the risk of large packages being stolen from your doorstep makes insurance, not just DC on said large packages mandatory. Just a suggestion. Dave
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dfitzg88
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 08:54 PM
wow. i think i actually won't be trading on this forum anymore.
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Zakman86
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
It might also be prudent to put a disclaimer in your h/w thread, right next to your preference for large deals, stating that the risk of large packages being stolen from your doorstep makes insurance, not just DC on said large packages mandatory. Just a suggestion. Dave
Signature Confirmation should be at the very least, a required option for most larger deals. Likely anything over $100 on each end. Saying it should be mandatory for 1 person only is ridiculous.
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 09:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
It might also be prudent to put a disclaimer in your h/w thread, right next to your preference for large deals, stating that the risk of large packages being stolen from your doorstep makes insurance, not just DC on said large packages mandatory. Just a suggestion. Dave
Dave,
In the place I'm living now, I haven't ever had anything stolen. I'm not even positive it got delivered at my doorstep, its possible it got delivered elsewhere but I've asked around my building. I have considered getting a PO Box instead of the boxes my apt uses, might be a better alternative.
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 09:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zakman86:
Signature Confirmation should be at the very least, a required option for most larger deals. Likely anything over $100 on each end. Saying it should be mandatory for 1 person only is ridiculous.
During this situation I actually suggested to the mods that sig con/ins should be mandatory for confirmation for any deal over $200. I personally insure anything over $75 if at all possible. Paypal requires sigs for 200 and over due to the high amount of scams.
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paragondave
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 09:38 PM
Zakman~ then some ripper wannabe will say someone other than them signed for it and made off with the package. Issue still not addressed. If you've had stuff delivered to your doorstep in the past and now it has come up missing because you left town and did not take appropriate precautions to hold delivery, knowing that a package was coming, it would behoove you to take it upon yourself to state this so that it doesn't happen again. Personal responsibility is everyone's responsibility however, some don't understand that or prey on those that do. Hooskdaddy~ why make it $200? What about deals worth $190?
[Edited 1 times, lastly by paragondave on March 08, 2012]
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Tranderas
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 09:39 PM
I don't know why anyone would get mad at you for this. I don't question your integrity. I do, however, question inca's reasoning on this and strongly urge him to speak to Leshrac to discuss how this precedent affects the foundation of trading on the site.The fact is, this is a serious concern for a lot of us. It demonstrates that a piece of paper saying it got to where it was supposed to be isn't enough- you have to have proof that the intended recipient actually got it. We were operating under the assumption since delivery confirmation started being offered that it was sufficient; finding out that it's not is a shock to most of us. We ask that, if the decision that DC is insufficient is upheld, that the rules be clarified to emphasize that fact; and that they be amended to include a suggestion of signature confirmation. As was pointed out elsewhere, the rules as decided by this case will discourage trades between $20-100 in value, international trades (registered to canada is $20; shipping a 2 oz package with insurance cost me $28), and trades with mid-ref members (from 20-80). There's going to be an increase in "With this trade you agree not to hold me responsible" clauses in e-mails (and in threads, which will cause more btas. People, if it's not in the confirmation e-mails, agreed to by both parties, it doesn't count) and people simply refusing to use the site. My biggest concern on your part, hoosk, is that you knew you were going out of town and yet had an expensive package delivered to your place without someone watching for your mail or putting it on hold. You know better now, and we all make bone-headed mistakes, so eh... Jaz indicated in the facebook group that she has proposed something in the staff forum. Thanks for making a public statement.
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junichi
Moderator
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posted March 08, 2012 09:50 PM
I am pleased to see that you went beyond your obligation to make sure this is fair for both side. You definitely deserve praise for that.I think most MOTLers are not angry at you, but angry at the system. Everyone is looking for a clear cut, black and white answer for a situation like this, and I personally don't think there is a clear answer. I believe both of you are definitely at fault and partly responsible for this mess. Ryusei has a responsibility to make sure you receive your package safely, but you also have a duty of care to make sure that you are there to accept the package at a reasonable way, and not a week after it was delivered. If either of you went one step further to make sure everything would be alright, this will most likely not happen. Hopefully everyone will learn something from this. __________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 ChampionYou know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by junichi on March 08, 2012]
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 09:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by junichi:
I am pleased to see that you went beyond on your obligation to make sure this is fair for both side. You definitely deserve praise for that.I think most MOTLers are not angry at you, but angry at the system. Everyone is looking for a clear cut, black and white answer for a situation like this, and I personally don't think there is a clear answer. I believe both of you are definitely at fault and partly responsible for this mess. Ryusei has a responsibility to make sure you receive your package safely, but you also have a duty of care to make sure that you are there to accept the package at a reasonable way, and not a week after it was delivered. If either of you went one step further to make sure everything would be alright, this will most likely not happen. Hopefully everyone will learn something from this.
I totally agree. i was partly responsible as well. I left in a bit of a hurry to go take care of my mom and honestly, packages were the last thing on my mind. Thats why I just wanted it to be fair to both of us as I felt we both could have done things a bit differently to help the situation.
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 09:59 PM
Ive heard theres a bit of a discussion going on off site as well about how to handle future situations such as mine. Below is a PM i sent Jaz during all of this. Just something to think about "something you guys should consider about that situation is maybe basing DC like paypal does. If the value is over $200 then signatures are required. Heres why, it comes from the early days of paypal and how DC actually works. Think about this situation. I buy something from you. you ship it to me but instead of shipping it to me you google a local place in my area(say a public library) and ship an empty package with DC to them within my zip code. It arrives and USPS website says it arrives. Delivered! You claim you didnt get it....but..but..but..usps.com says its delivered! But in actuality all DC does is say a package was delivered within xxxxx-xxxx zipcode on a certain day. It doesnt say it was delivered to
Justin White
504 Bethel Road Apt 1305
Morganton NC 28655 Just Morganton NC 28655...thats why Gunslinga said DC was basically a waste of time. Scammers used to do that alot in the early days of paypal, thats why they make larger transactions require signatures. So i would suggest putting a $200 limit to where if youre sending that much worth of stuff signatures are mandatory. they generally cost a few bucks. Just my 2 cents.
But its also been suggested that alot more "im not responsible for lost/damaged packages" clauses will pop up and more bta cases will come up as well.
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paragondave
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 10:05 PM
If someone you are negotiating a trade with states to you, 'you must accept the risks of lost or damaged mail if you do not pay for insurance' You also have the option to not do the trade. I often ask this of potential traders if they are proposing a trade that is not worth doing if you factor in the cost of Insurance or registered mail. This is not an issue if the deal is well worth the cost of the additional insurance. I would also urge you to purchase insurance when you send 1/2 of the deal as you stated you would be doing, just to be safe, even though it does not exceed $200. Dave
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 08, 2012 10:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
If someone you are negotiating a trade with states to you, 'you must accept the risks of lost or damaged mail if you do not pay for insurance' You also have the option to not do the trade. I often ask this of potential traders if they are proposing a trade that is not worth doing if you factor in the cost of Insurance or registered mail. This is not an issue if the deal is well worth the cost of the additional insurance. I would also urge you to purchase insurance when you send 1/2 of the deal as you stated you would be doing, just to be safe, even though it does not exceed $200. Dave
Yeah Ill be registering it.
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ikris
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 12:58 AM
So, the precedent set by this case is that I could arrange a deal with another user, send my end first and with delivery confirmation, and they could simply claim that even though usps shows proof of delivery, that my package never made it to their hands and therefore they have ZERO obligation to send their end of the deal?Also, I could require a signature and they could admit to signing for a package but claim that the package was empty and once again, they have no obligation to send their end of the deal? Easy solution, you say... Just force them to pay for insurance or accept the risks associated with choosing not to! So what's to stop me from doing so, and just sending an empty package? All around, this has left a horrible taste in my mouth...
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paragondave
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 01:14 AM
As it should Ikris.
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Nitelite
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 01:26 AM
I don't like this at all. Seriously, Hooks should be responsible for the entire thing.
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Zeckk
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 01:26 AM
The empty-package scam is extremely hard to stop, simply because no mailing service offers a reasonably-priced way to independently verify the contents of a package. The only real deterrent is reputation and the relative scarcity of trading sites like MOTL or MTGSalvation, i.e. you can get away with it once or twice, but the trail of BTAs will prevent further trades once your reputation is tarnished.With that said, this BTA fiasco is a wake-up call for the operators of MOTL to review their Sending Rules and clarify the limits of liability for both parties. I really doubt that inca's ruling will remain official policy of MOTL, considering that established online businesses like Amazon use DC as an acceptable form of proof for delivery, and MTGSalvation accepts DC as proof of delivery as well.
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Zeckk
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 01:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nitelite:
I don't like this at all. Seriously, Hooks should be responsible for the entire thing.
I also have to agree with this. it's nothing personal against Hoosk, but if someone told me they lost my $250 package after it was delivered to their house, then offered half of that value back in compensation, I would tell them to go kick rocks. But I'm not Ryusei24, and even if MOTL reverses their decision it leaves egg on their face for retroactively punishing a guy that they absolved of guilt without any new evidence to the trade. For what it's worth, I do believe that Hoosk and Ryusei are both telling the truth. If Hoosk was scamming, he would simply have claimed to receive an empty box (which would have made this case cut-and-dry in his favor before we knew how inca was gong to rule), and if Ryusei had actually shipped an empty container, Hoosk would have reported as such, again leaving Hoosk in the clear. Ideally, Hoosk would simply ship his 4 volc islands to Ryusei, then go after his apartment manager and postal worker with charges of theft or incompetence, but it's doubtful that will happen.
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MAB_Rapper
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 03:56 AM
And this is partly why I never trade on MOTL, mostly just sell.That said, kudos for doing the right thing when MOTL favored your side. __________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals) The Official Tower Magic Facebook Page
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AGO
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 04:07 AM
One question I have is- If he had gotten Insurance on the package would they still have compensated him even though it was marked as delivered?
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 04:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AGO:
One question I have is- If he had gotten Insurance on the package would they still have compensated him even though it was marked as delivered?
I'm not sure about stuff coming from canada but stuff sent inside the US insured for 200 or more requires a sig by usps.
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caquaa
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 04:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AGO:
One question I have is- If he had gotten Insurance on the package would they still have compensated him even though it was marked as delivered?
no, they would not have. Its come up previously in the BTA.
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southparker2002
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 04:40 AM
So why did it go into the BTA if your sending out anyway??????
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Hooskdaddy
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 04:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by southparker2002:
So why did it go into the BTA if your sending out anyway??????
Because ryusei being a fairly new member, jumped the gun a bit, which I don't blame him for honestly. After I pm'd him what ben had said(ruled), I asked him what he wanted to do about it. He said he wanted me to send out my end. I said I wasn't going to send 4 volcanics and be the only one who lost on the deal. He then BTA'd me, all of this happening within the span of a few hours.
After my case was closed I've since spoken with ryusei and told him that all I wanted for it to be, was fair to both of us, which is why I'm sending him 2 volcanics.
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Vegas10
Member
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posted March 09, 2012 05:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AGO:
One question I have is- If he had gotten Insurance on the package would they still have compensated him even though it was marked as delivered?
I am a USPS carrier, if an insured item is insured for $200 or more a signature is required, also if after signing you discover the items inside were damgaged the sender can file a claim with USPS.
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