http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Liliana-of-the-Veil-SIGNED-BY-STEVE-ARGYLE-ALTERED-ART-FOIL-/150789364388?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231bbf1aa4

Who is to say that the original really was a Liliana?

I hope this is not the beginning of a new alter era where one cannot buy an alter online without triple-checking that it's not counterfeit.

Or am I wrong and these things are actually legal to play at tournaments?

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You're totally right... they're just layering over everything, so who knows what's really under there?

You'll see scammers for sure.

Alters are sort-of a dead fad anyway, right?

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Originally posted by flophaus:

Alters are sort-of a dead fad anyway, right?

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I can't say I do. For me there is nothing more pimp than a artist altered and signed Magic card. But that's just me...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Markers:
There seems to be a misconception about cards like these being legal...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Lil iana-of-the-Veil-SIGNED-BY-STEVE-ARGYLE-ALTERED-ART-FOIL-/150789364388?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231bbf1aa4

Who is to say that the original really was a Liliana?

I hope this is not the beginning of a new alter era where one cannot buy an alter online without triple-checking that it's not counterfeit.

Or am I wrong and these things are actually legal to play at tournaments?

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As I understand it, if the card is altered in such a way that you can't distinguish it from other cards while it's in the sleeve (IE, layers were stripped off to be added back so the card is no thicker than others etc) and the relevent card information (Name, Casting Cost, P/T, Rules Text) in't obscured, it's tournament legal pending the discretion of the judge on the floor.

As to whether that's a real Liliana or whether someone is therefore using a proxy whether they realise it or not, I'd assume (But may be wrong if a Level 1+ Judge wants to tell me otherwise) that it's fine unless an opponent wants to lodge a complaint to a judge that you're playing with illegal proxied cards, in which case, the onus is on you to prove that the card is genuine.

These were sold by Steve Argyle himself originally as he did the alters and he sold them at GPs. So they are certainly not counterfeit.

How do I know? Because I bought one of his pieces of Everflowing Chalice, changed into a Martini with Chandra using it as a hot tub.

Now are they legal to use? My guess is no, since there is an entire layer of lacker on the card that I can still smell every time I take it out of a sleeve.

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Also, the art is actual art done by the artist, and used with the artist's permission.

My question is what machine is he using, and how do the rest of us get to make these things so we can start getting triple the value out of our cards

Keep in mind as well that under the new MTR (in effect April 2), the card ART has cannot be unrecognizable, not just the card as a whole, which from a rules standpoint means that pretty much any alter that replaces all or most of the original art, especially if it's replacing the primary subject of the original art (the creature itself for creature cards, etc.) would not be allowed. The dual lands that were brought up previously by MagicPatty would not be legal for sanctioned play under this rule, since the original art is replaced.

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Originally posted by MagicPatty:
I posted about this a month ago. The idea is that this guy is not printing these cards over a mountain, but they are going over the actual card. This means that an altered Underground Sea is on a real Underground Sea.

Also, the art is actual art done by the artist, and used with the artist's permission.

My question is what machine is he using, and how do the rest of us get to make these things so we can start getting triple the value out of our cards

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a) How does one know if the original card was a dual/mox/jace and not a mountain/Island?

You can't....

b) If people would find out how to make these...We'd have a serious problem...Who is to stop anyone from making "foil mountains" to "foil Tarmogoyfs" (original pics)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Markers:
a) How does one know if the original card was a dual/mox/jace and not a mountain/Island?

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From what I understand of the process, they take an actual Liliana of the Veil and "erase" the parts that they don't want to keep. Everything outside of the name box, cost, abilities, etc.

Then they use a digital printer to print the new image (probably commissioned by Steve Argyle) over the clean spots on the card. That could also explain a bit of the price increase. They aren't just slapping some random art over it and jacking it up, they commissioned art specifically for certain cards and that's just built into the final price.

I would think (without seeing one in person) that the printing is different enough that the new art would be noticeably different than the originally printed areas. Looking at it close enough you could probably see the difference.

quote:

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Originally posted by Helspont:

At GP SLC, the judges were all over the place on what alters were allowed and what wasn't. Saw angel and demon Liliana alters being allowed and school girl and nurses not allowed. One judge said yes to the full foil alter and another said no to it.

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Head judge has final say. School girl was likely due to sexual images. Others could have been due to thickness. Any serious alter can be disallowed by a head judge for any reason.

So are those legal? Maybe
Would i allow them if i was head judge? I'm leaning toward no, but I'd have to see one.

quote:

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Originally posted by TimeBeing:
Head judge has final say. School girl was likely due to sexual images. Others could have been due to thickness. Any serious alter can be disallowed by a head judge for any reason.

So are those legal? Maybe
Would i allow them if i was head judge? I'm leaning toward no, but I'd have to see one.

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They are -absolutely- illegal if printed onto a card they aren't. You're playing with a card you don't own.

Rephrase - Is it legal to digitally alter a card if it's still the same card?
Jace TMS could be altered into a JTMS who's holding a crystal ball, for example.

As long as the relevant rules text is not obscured or modified, and the card is, by weight/thickness/etc not distinguishable from other cards, whether a given entirely cosmetic alteration is kosher depends on whether your opponent calls a judge over for it, and what the judge decides.