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Author Topic:   Saving Vintage
crusader_ff3
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posted April 07, 2012 02:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for crusader_ff3 Click Here to Email crusader_ff3 Send a private message to crusader_ff3 Click to send crusader_ff3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View crusader_ff3's Have/Want ListView crusader_ff3's Have/Want List
Vintage is a hard format to control and is dying off. This is sad because the game was originally based off this one format and should stick around until the end.

I've never actually played in a tournament, and have played the game since 1995. The reason I don't play in a tournament setting is because everything I've ever read about it, and I do follow it closely, points to the direction that there is no creativity in deck building as the same mother effing top 4 or 5 decks are played and that is it. Also card prices are very high and drastically reduces the barrier of entry for new players.

So after reading through a lot of threads over the last few years about the format as a whole and player complaints about the banned/restricted list and pricey barrier of entry, I came up with the following solution:

A point-based deck design where each card is given a value based solely upon it's power in the format (not price or it's limited print run) and only allowing a maximum point base to each deck.

I.E. Each deck is only allowed 300 points.

Black lotus = 50
Ancestral Recall = 40
Time Walk = 35
Timetwister = 10
Each mox = 25
Library of Alexandria = 40
Mishra's Workshop = 30
Bazaar of Baghdad = 15
Mana Drain = 25
Force of Will = 20
Yawgmoth's Will = 30
Demonic Tutor = 25
Time Vault = 50
Etc.

Keep all power restricted and other cards that limit a variety of competitive decks in the format and, most importantly, the fun of the game. Here are some examples of these types of cards:

Demonic Tutor
Time Vault
Yawgmoth's Will
Trinisphere
Tolarian Academy
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Stripmine
Tinker
Balance

Unrestrict Library of Alexandria for crying outloud because no one has been able to play the freaking thing since about 3 months after its original printing (yes I am bitter about this because it's entirely too slow for Vintage and banned in everything else, therefore only good in casual in which case it's actually too good)

A few other things:

Ban any card with storm because it's effing boring. I'm so sick of uncounterable combos that are easy to pull off and we've all seen a hundred times. The format lacks creativity, that's its biggest problem for me.

Ban every wish card because the game should only be played with your actual deck, not bullcrap from outside the game. Seriously why does this game involve cards that people didn't skillfully think to put in their deck or forgot to prepare for certain cards? If you made a mistake and should have added something to your deck, it's your fault alone and you can swap within your sideboard before the next game. Take the loss like a man. If you want to keep your deck to 60 cards then you shouldn't have access to 75 during actual gameplay.

Ban split and flip cards. My argument here is similar to having a 60 card deck that is really more than 60 cards. Who's bright idea was this?

Ban level up cards. It just doesn't feel like Magic: The Gathering, simple enough.

I realize this is a lot of bannings, but I do feel they were mistakes and took something away from the game. Card designers are doing this too often. We don't need 7 new creature abilities within each set, nor do we need creatures that have 6 abilities and are just annoying to read or can't die in a new way.

Any card that probably should be restricted and isn't on the list I created above like Wasteland, Fastbond, Lion's Eye Diamond, and other tutors, just give them high points. Simply put, Vintage players want to play with their cards and the best ones are restricted which basically kill them altogether. So allow players to use them, but make it cost them dearly by taking up a lot of points in the deck. This is with the exception to my comments above about storm, wishes, split/flip, and level-up cards because I personally don't think they should be in the game and were mistakes.

What I think the result would be:

- Cards wouldn't lose value
- A deck couldn't hold all the power 9 without being able to play anything else
- The format would be slower, but still capable of being fast
- Players could use cards that have been restricted for entirely to long
- Unskilled cards with storm and wish cards would finally be eliminated
- Eliminate proxies, with a limited point-base per deck you don't need every expensive card so decks will be cheaper in general. Or, at least, a tremendous amount of inexpensive cards will be more effective and shouldn't be worth so many points.
- And most importantly, I highly doubt the format will only have a few top decks that everyone reads online and takes to a tournament and when they win think they should be glorified... It's just pathetic to steal a deck design and think you are good.


Anyways please comment on this, and don't be insulting, just simply state your opinion kindly and explain why certain things would work or why you think they wouldn't. I would like this idea to take off and not just be something this site shuts the thread down for because people can't be civil.

Thank you kindly,
Ryan

P.S. The point value I gave specific cards in this topic obviously aren't final and would be adjusted by Wizards accordingly. As new cards are released or old cards become overpowered, they can simply adjust the point value rather than restricting them altogether and making the card not playable as a one-of.

 
thror
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posted April 07, 2012 02:23 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
stay on your kitchen table.

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crusader_ff3
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posted April 07, 2012 02:30 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for crusader_ff3 Click Here to Email crusader_ff3 Send a private message to crusader_ff3 Click to send crusader_ff3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View crusader_ff3's Have/Want ListView crusader_ff3's Have/Want List
Constructive criticism please. I would really only like comments with some fixes to my proposed solution or why you think it simply wouldn't work in general.

Really hoping this doesn't turn into a bunch of A-holes wasting my time. This happens far too often on these sites...

 
airwalk
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posted April 07, 2012 02:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for airwalk Send a private message to airwalk Click to send airwalk an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Oh, nevermind, you're trolling! Good joke!

[Edited 2 times, lastly by airwalk on April 07, 2012]
 
Animosity
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posted April 07, 2012 06:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Animosity Click Here to Email Animosity Send a private message to Animosity Click to send Animosity an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Islands would be 10 points because they are over powered right?
 
crusader_ff3
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posted April 07, 2012 06:51 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for crusader_ff3 Click Here to Email crusader_ff3 Send a private message to crusader_ff3 Click to send crusader_ff3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View crusader_ff3's Have/Want ListView crusader_ff3's Have/Want List
What's the matter? You kids can't create your own vintage deck? Too afraid of diversity in the format? Or just simply can't reply with a comment as to why something like this wouldn't work? God I hate this site. I give magic players too much credit in thinking they might be smart because it's a nerd game. Someone please explain your reasoning on here. And yes, as the current restricted list and every magic player knows, blue is overpowered. You cant argue that.

Watch vintage fade away because 1st turn kills aren't fun for even the person winning. Waste of everyone's time on here. Post your own solution topic then. Or keep it as it is, a dead format.

 
Mr.C
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posted April 07, 2012 06:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
Uh, Vintage has faded away. It's dead. Legacy is next, although it will take a few years.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mr.C on April 07, 2012]
 
airwalk
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posted April 07, 2012 07:03 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for airwalk Send a private message to airwalk Click to send airwalk an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I doubt Legacy will ever be as unpopular as Vintage is right now, until of course they stop printing new cards and the game really dies.
 
thror
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posted April 07, 2012 07:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
None of your fixes need to happen. You just sound like a whiney baby crying because storm kills him and his aggro deck can't compete.

quote:
I've never actually played in a tournament
This statement shows unequivocally that you have no idea what is actually going on.

There has been a bunch of 'innovation/creativity' in both eternal formats over the last few years. However, the point of TOURNAMENT magic is to compete and win. Especially when there are thousands of dollars in prizes, people are going to play THE BEST decks. Taking your vampire homebrew is a surefire way to go 0-7 drop.

"Ban level up cards" - ROFL. Point1, what 'feels like' magic to you doesnt matter. The game is the whole, Alpha to Zendikar and past. It grows, evolves, and changes all the time. Point2 - NONE of the level up cards even get played in vintage, so why the hell bother? Again shows that you really dont know what's going on. (These same points apply to split and flip cards too, other that the rarest Fire/Ice.)

If you want a point system, now you just need to look for a different game. Magic has a deck limiting system - Bans, Restrictions, Rule of 4. These have worked for 18 years, and they still work now.

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[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

[19:01] <nderEvo> you can delete yourself

 
fluffycow
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posted April 07, 2012 07:30 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for fluffycow Click Here to Email fluffycow Send a private message to fluffycow Click to send fluffycow an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View fluffycow's Have/Want ListView fluffycow's Have/Want List
Sir, I will sign your petition! I think you should take price into account as well, because since I don't want to pay $25 for a tolarian academy, that means other people shouldn't be allowed to with it either!
 
Undomian
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posted April 07, 2012 07:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Undomian Click Here to Email Undomian Send a private message to Undomian Click to send Undomian an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
The problem here is that you're talking about 60 card casual, not vintage. Go ahead and implement this new format within your playgroup. Banning the most powerful cards in Magic in the only constructed format where people can play with the most powerful cards in Magic seems like a grand idea. Honestly, if you think you can break the meta with your 'totally original' deck, by all means do so.
 
GenghisTom
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posted April 07, 2012 08:15 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for GenghisTom Click Here to Email GenghisTom Send a private message to GenghisTom Click to send GenghisTom an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm going to be as nice as possible...

It seems you don't understand there's two kinds of magic, completely different - the only thing they have in common is they happen to be based on the same cardboard.

Competitive and casual.

YOU, belong in the latter.

Sorry, but all of us in the former category actually enjoy the fact there's only 4 or 5 "effing" decks to choose from in each format. At that point its more about your own preference on which deck to play, how to pilot it, and what tweeks if any you put on it.

THIS, lends itself well to good players.
Everyone else, and by that I mean the not-so-good players, can enjoy their casual format (IE. the names, pictures, and flavors of their decks and cards).

Sorry, this game is competitive and it's a wild jungle out there. Survival of the fittest, the best decks rise to the top and it becomes a game of skill at that point.


There, I said it. Someone had to.

 
Zeckk
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posted April 07, 2012 08:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
Uh, Vintage has faded away. It's dead. Legacy is next, although it will take a few years.

Legacy will stay relevant and viable the instant WotC prints dual lands that become viable replacements for the original duals. Perhaps snow-duals, perhaps something akin to SOM fast-lands with basic land types.

Nothing else on the reserved list impacts legacy to such a degree.

 
coolio
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posted April 07, 2012 09:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
my argument will go the following way.

i suggest you google menendian martell
read up on the rambling of a thread that menendian posted, and subsequently got fired from scg as a columnist for.. you are basically being menendian

you outright say you have zero tournament experience, your arguments are auto-invalidated.

constructive criticism.. play a tournament, understand why the top tier decks are top tier, try going to a host of tournaments and "be creative" and build your own deck.. my friends do, I know people who had hands in building oath, stax, noble fish (btw, it's called that cus my friend's last name is noble). If you believe you can fix tournament vintage, feel free to come with a brew, and dominate, otherwise, your kitchen countertop is where you should keep your play.. leave the competitive scene to those who win good prizes.. k?

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by coolio on April 07, 2012]

 
crusader_ff3
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posted April 07, 2012 09:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for crusader_ff3 Click Here to Email crusader_ff3 Send a private message to crusader_ff3 Click to send crusader_ff3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View crusader_ff3's Have/Want ListView crusader_ff3's Have/Want List
I'm sorry I thought vintage players were about the old school game and not a prize or glory in someone else's deck. I don't see much skill in a game that's already laid a path for you. I never said the top tier decks weren't top tier, I said based upon what I've read on other threads over the past few years points at the fact that seeing these same decks day to day is boring and people don't want to spend 4k to play a deck that's already been designed. And based upon that of which I specifically stated stated, I've proposed what I think is a solution. Then you all started being ignorant. I'll admit I should have left the level up and split cards out of this, bc they really don't see play. That was just an opinion of how the game has lost its foundation.

Long story short, you were all worthless and only further proved my point that magic has lost its creativity, skill, vintage tournament scene, and that douche bags took over.

 
simbayu
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posted April 07, 2012 10:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for simbayu Send a private message to simbayu Click to send simbayu an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.C:
Uh, Vintage has faded away. It's dead. Legacy is next, although it will take a few years.

Legacy will be fine as long as SCG continues to hold legacy tournaments.

 
choco man
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posted April 07, 2012 10:36 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by crusader_ff3:
I'm sorry I thought vintage players were about the old school game and not a prize or glory in someone else's deck. I don't see much skill in a game that's already laid a path for you. I never said the top tier decks weren't top tier, I said based upon what I've read on other threads over the past few years points at the fact that seeing these same decks day to day is boring and people don't want to spend 4k to play a deck that's already been designed. And based upon that of which I specifically stated stated, I've proposed what I think is a solution. Then you all started being ignorant. I'll admit I should have left the level up and split cards out of this, bc they really don't see play. That was just an opinion of how the game has lost its foundation.

Long story short, you were all worthless and only further proved my point that magic has lost its creativity, skill, vintage tournament scene, and that douche bags took over.


I'll put it this way: have you ever watched a competitive sporting event? You will notice that the players all share vey common atheletic motions (ie golf players swing the same way with the same clubs, basketball players mostly shoot he same, etc).

This is bc over the course of time, players/coaches have already discovered the most effective methods to accomplish the end goals of their sports. A basketball team isn't any less creative because they adopted similar strategies (alley-oops, pick-and-roll, zone/man defense). In all sports/disiplines/businesses certain strategies have just proven so effective, it's just a fact. If you fail to understand those tactics, you will fail.

But knowledge doesn't substitute for execution. Each team/player still has to be effective in deploying those strategies. Ferrari isn't creative bc it knows it must make appealing car products. I bet you don't think ferrari is uncreative bc they simply make cars. They didnt invent he car, but they sure did invent the individual model of cars they make.

Why do you insist on saying players who take advantage of powerful cards uncreative? Mtg is a game and you can only do what the cards say. Why not have the powerful cards. It's pretty common knowledge which ones they are. I bet you didn't find out which ones they are all on your own. A some level you found out bc you were told/shown their effects on the game. Each netdeck that you talk about was completely original at one point. So how exactly do you reconcile that fact? How about the decks with snapcaster mage, they obviously can't be but 1 year old (pretty new and original since mtg is 20 yrs old).

If you ask me, your points system is quite unoriginal and uncreative. Your argument from the pts system perspective has been brought up numerous times already.

 
crusader_ff3
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posted April 07, 2012 11:27 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for crusader_ff3 Click Here to Email crusader_ff3 Send a private message to crusader_ff3 Click to send crusader_ff3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View crusader_ff3's Have/Want ListView crusader_ff3's Have/Want List
Thank you for your constructive points. What you are saying does make sense, that's all I wanted.

One thing I would like to point out, however, is that you really can't compare a physical skill to knowledge. I see your point in the example, it's just a little uncomparible to that extent.

I was also unaware that this point system was already thought of.

To add to what I am really trying to get across, I personally don't like that it is so obvious which cards are the most powerful. Maybe not so much that, but that they are all used in every deck. It just limits variety. I hate to see the thousands of cards in this game be limited to about 90 different cards, all of which share so many of the same. I guess that's never going to change unless some drastic new ruling like a point system would enter the game. I feel like that would be a whole new format rather.

Anyways, thanks for being civil. Gives a little hope to the players of the game.

 
Havoc Demon
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posted April 07, 2012 11:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Havoc Demon Click Here to Email Havoc Demon Send a private message to Havoc Demon Click to send Havoc Demon an Instant MessageVisit Havoc Demon's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
You complain about Magic lacking skill and your solution is to ban one of the most skill intensive mechanics ever printed?

And then you complain about Magic lacking creativity and your solution is to massively shrink the card pool with a salary cap and banning whole chunks of design.

Sorry, but you're ideas are terrible and have no reflection of the actual Vintage format or anything past your playgroup. Go ahead and waste countless hours trying to apply a completely arbitrary system and see how creative it turns out to be.

Or play pauper. That sounds way better than your capped format.

But don't mind me, I'm just one of those douchebags that's unknowingly ruining the game of Magic.

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bawitheba
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posted April 08, 2012 02:09 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for bawitheba Click Here to Email bawitheba Send a private message to bawitheba Click to send bawitheba an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View bawitheba's Have/Want ListView bawitheba's Have/Want List
Vintage a path layed for you. Are you serious?

Have you ever even watched a vintage game?
Basically the higher you get in formats the better the player is and understanding the rules.
Most vintage players are Judges should be have been or could be.
When turs take 15 minutes a piece to properly kill someone one single mistake and you chain is broken and you lost.
I have a lot of respect for vintage players. I would love to see it as big as it once was. Vintage tournaments always gave out the best prizes.

I miss old school vintage days

 
Jazaray
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posted April 08, 2012 04:39 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Jazaray Click Here to Email Jazaray Send a private message to Jazaray Click to send Jazaray an Instant MessageVisit Jazaray's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
You say this:

quote:
Originally posted by crusader_ff3: I would like this idea to take off and not just be something this site shuts the thread down for because people can't be civil.

And follow up it with THIS?

quote:
Originally posted by crusader_ff3:
[..]Then you all started being ignorant. [...]

Long story short, you were all worthless and only further proved my point that magic has lost its creativity, skill, vintage tournament scene, and that douche bags took over.



It seems as though you're the one who cannot be civil. I don't see anyone calling you an ignorant, or worthless, even though your idea wasn't... so well thought out. In fact, you've been insulting the site throughout the whole thread. If you don't like how this site operates, why do you come here? Why are you posting?

Let me make this perfectly clear. This thread is being closed down because YOU can't be civil.

Thanks,
Jazaray

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