quote:

---

Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Good luck with this. Once it gets started up I might check it out. It looks sort of ghetto right now though (especially the forums ).

---

Ha! I know. You're right. Sorry about that. We're operating at a huge loss right now, so we have to use free sites like FreeForums.org and stuff. Thanks for being patient with the design.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LaysanRail:

Where did they come from? They came from MOTL.

---

Ah yes.. because you're illegally spamming our members. Real nice way to start a business.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

At present, no more than 200 people in total can ever rip off the system for 9.99

Over time, the amount each other user is carrying as risk approaches 0 as those "starter points" cycle around the system.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LaysanRail:

Where did they come from? They came from MOTL.

---

Good point. My vote is to have you banned for spamming. Have this thread deleted so you don't get free advertising. Also, have you reported to your web host for spam emails.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Devonin:
The most a person can rip off the system for is 9.99

At present, no more than 200 people in total can ever rip off the system for 9.99

Over time, the amount each other user is carrying as risk approaches 0 as those "starter points" cycle around the system.

Add in a requirement that your points earned : points spent ratio has to stay above 1, and require at least one sending out of cards before you're able to receive, and it's certainly no MORE prone to scamming and ripping than MOTL is.

---

God forbid, if the website do grow, more points will be required in circulation for the system to run effectively, and what will he do then? give people more free money that he is not even liable for?

Seriously, go take some basic accounting course, then come back and tell me how this is going to work.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

We have currency, such as the USD, which is used to store value so people can get what they need without having to rely on bartering. If I want a mox jet, and i have 6000 bulk rares, I don't want to have to find the person who wants to make that trade, it is easier to use USD as a middleman.

This idea of using currency is pretty popular, and has caught on pretty much all around the world.

Now if I understand this right, the idea of using Pucapoints is exactly the same as using USD. You can trade your cards for pucapoints, and then people will send you cards for your puca points. Seems to work just like selling your cards for $$, and then buying cards with them, except instead of being able to deal with everybody in the world (usd is easily transferable to euro, etc), you can only deal with people who have signed up on your website.

You can also earn pucapoints by being a beta tester, or by making a donation to the site. This is a way of transferring USD into pucapoints, which sort of makes sense. However, what exactly is happening to the money? USD goes into the site, and it gets spent on bandwidth or whatever. However, the person who donated the USD gets pucapoints anyway.

Where is this money coming from? The same place as where the pucapoints the betatesters get are coming from: nowhere.

Now, we are creating value out of nowhere. Seems great for the people getting the points, for you, since you don't actually give anything up for the donations.

So let's say I donate 100 bucks to your site, and I get the equivalent of 100$ worth of pucabucks. Somebody else sends me 100 dollars worth of magic cards, and he ends up with my points. I paid 100 dollars for 100 dollars worth of cards, and I am happy. You got 100 dollars of donations free, and you are happy. The other guy who sent out his cards, he has these pucapoints that you created out of thin air. However, what's the worth of these pucapoints?

You cannot redeem your pucapoints back into the site for cash.

You can only give your pucapoints to another user for cards. Pucapoints can only be created, once they are in the system they stay there.

If trades are happening, and all the pucapoints are moving around along with cards, it seems fine and it seems to be working. However, the total worth of pucapoints must be equal to the total amount that all the users are negative, in cardboard. Each point was gained by giving away that much worth of cardboard, so each point was paid for in cards.

So, if trading is going on, the total amount of pucapoints is representative of the total deficit of users of the site (people who send cards in for points, not those who get free points). This is all assuming that the site works PERFECTLY and lots of people join and trade.

If there is no way to ever transfer the pucapoints to USD again, won't the community as a whole always be negative that total quantity of cards, if trades are happening?

Who is left holding the bag?

According to wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

People are pumping money (or cards) into this website in exchange for the promise of getting back cards of equal worth in the future. However, these cards always have to come from more and more people. The way this system works, the net effect of this scheme will ALWAYS be losses. There is just absolutely no way for things to come to an equilibrium, where everybody gets back what they put into it. The last person to send cards will always be down.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LemonMeringue:
We have magic cards, which are worth a certain amount of money. It's not too difficult to transfer magic cards to USD, euro, etc.

We have currency, such as the USD, which is used to store value so people can get what they need without having to rely on bartering. If I want a mox jet, and i have 6000 bulk rares, I don't want to have to find the person who wants to make that trade, it is easier to use USD as a middleman.

This idea of using currency is pretty popular, and has caught on pretty much all around the world.

Now if I understand this right, the idea of using Pucapoints is exactly the same as using USD. You can trade your cards for pucapoints, and then people will send you cards for your puca points. Seems to work just like selling your cards for $$, and then buying cards with them, except instead of being able to deal with everybody in the world (usd is easily transferable to euro, etc), you can only deal with people who have signed up on your website.

You can also earn pucapoints by being a beta tester, or by making a donation to the site. This is a way of transferring USD into pucapoints, which sort of makes sense. However, what exactly is happening to the money? USD goes into the site, and it gets spent on bandwidth or whatever. However, the person who donated the USD gets pucapoints anyway.

Where is this money coming from? The same place as where the pucapoints the betatesters get are coming from: nowhere.

Now, we are creating value out of nowhere. Seems great for the people getting the points, for you, since you don't actually give anything up for the donations.

So let's say I donate 100 bucks to your site, and I get the equivalent of 100$ worth of pucabucks. Somebody else sends me 100 dollars worth of magic cards, and he ends up with my points. I paid 100 dollars for 100 dollars worth of cards, and I am happy. You got 100 dollars of donations free, and you are happy. The other guy who sent out his cards, he has these pucapoints that you created out of thin air. However, what's the worth of these pucapoints?

You cannot redeem your pucapoints back into the site for cash.

You can only give your pucapoints to another user for cards. Pucapoints can only be created, once they are in the system they stay there.

If trades are happening, and all the pucapoints are moving around along with cards, it seems fine and it seems to be working. However, the total worth of pucapoints must be equal to the total amount that all the users are negative, in cardboard. Each point was gained by giving away that much worth of cardboard, so each point was paid for in cards.

So, if trading is going on, the total amount of pucapoints is representative of the total deficit of users of the site (people who send cards in for points, not those who get free points). This is all assuming that the site works PERFECTLY and lots of people join and trade.

If there is no way to ever transfer the pucapoints to USD again, won't the community as a whole always be negative that total quantity of cards, if trades are happening?

Who is left holding the bag?

According to wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

People are pumping money (or cards) into this website in exchange for the promise of getting back cards of equal worth in the future. However, these cards always have to come from more and more people. The way this system works, the net effect of this scheme will ALWAYS be losses. There is just absolutely no way for things to come to an equilibrium, where everybody gets back what they put into it. The last person to send cards will always be down.

If you put your money or cards into this, you might get it back. But as a whole, the community will lose money.

---

Spot on.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

---

Originally posted by LemonMeringue:
We have magic cards, which are worth a certain amount of money. It's not too difficult to transfer magic cards to USD, euro, etc.

We have currency, such as the USD, which is used to store value so people can get what they need without having to rely on bartering. If I want a mox jet, and i have 6000 bulk rares, I don't want to have to find the person who wants to make that trade, it is easier to use USD as a middleman.

This idea of using currency is pretty popular, and has caught on pretty much all around the world.

Now if I understand this right, the idea of using Pucapoints is exactly the same as using USD. You can trade your cards for pucapoints, and then people will send you cards for your puca points. Seems to work just like selling your cards for $$, and then buying cards with them, except instead of being able to deal with everybody in the world (usd is easily transferable to euro, etc), you can only deal with people who have signed up on your website.

You can also earn pucapoints by being a beta tester, or by making a donation to the site. This is a way of transferring USD into pucapoints, which sort of makes sense. However, what exactly is happening to the money? USD goes into the site, and it gets spent on bandwidth or whatever. However, the person who donated the USD gets pucapoints anyway.

Where is this money coming from? The same place as where the pucapoints the betatesters get are coming from: nowhere.

Now, we are creating value out of nowhere. Seems great for the people getting the points, for you, since you don't actually give anything up for the donations.

So let's say I donate 100 bucks to your site, and I get the equivalent of 100$ worth of pucabucks. Somebody else sends me 100 dollars worth of magic cards, and he ends up with my points. I paid 100 dollars for 100 dollars worth of cards, and I am happy. You got 100 dollars of donations free, and you are happy. The other guy who sent out his cards, he has these pucapoints that you created out of thin air. However, what's the worth of these pucapoints?

You cannot redeem your pucapoints back into the site for cash.

You can only give your pucapoints to another user for cards. Pucapoints can only be created, once they are in the system they stay there.

If trades are happening, and all the pucapoints are moving around along with cards, it seems fine and it seems to be working. However, the total worth of pucapoints must be equal to the total amount that all the users are negative, in cardboard. Each point was gained by giving away that much worth of cardboard, so each point was paid for in cards.

So, if trading is going on, the total amount of pucapoints is representative of the total deficit of users of the site (people who send cards in for points, not those who get free points). This is all assuming that the site works PERFECTLY and lots of people join and trade.

If there is no way to ever transfer the pucapoints to USD again, won't the community as a whole always be negative that total quantity of cards, if trades are happening?

Who is left holding the bag?

According to wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

People are pumping money (or cards) into this website in exchange for the promise of getting back cards of equal worth in the future. However, these cards always have to come from more and more people. The way this system works, the net effect of this scheme will ALWAYS be losses. There is just absolutely no way for things to come to an equilibrium, where everybody gets back what they put into it. The last person to send cards will always be down.

If you put your money or cards into this, you might get it back. But as a whole, the community will lose money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
Spot on.

---

I think you guys are putting way too much thought into this, don't think of this as money disappearing, think of it more like magic as a whole. All your cards are worth anything because wizards exist and continue to support the game and make new cards and be profitable. If for any reason they stop, your cards are gonna be with what the card board is worth.

Same thing as this site, as long as there are enough people trading then eventually, the owner can make a profit by allowing ads or whatnot and make money out of that instead of donations.

And if you really want to get into it, if the site does get big enough, there will be enough people that quit, forgot their passwords or got hit by a truck that there leftover pucapoints will sit in oblivion to debit against anything the owner gave away

quote:

---

Originally posted by bstrom213:

But back on top, where are my free points

---

Or the part where he's said he's basically -going- to stop selling points for money, and work out another system?

Yeesh.

As for how to get points into the system without making them completely arbitrary, how about this?

You list a card in your haves, you get 1 point, to a max of 500 points (or 1000, whatever).

You de-list a card, you lose a point.

You un-list a card by virtue of sending it to someone, you keep your point

So 500 points per person enter into the system (Multiplied by enough people, and that's a lot of points)

You can't clear the cards out and still receive cards, because you lose the points you got.

By the time you're "keeping" the 500 points (5 whole dollars!) you did so by sending out 500 cards to people (On average, all worth WAAAY more than a penny each)

So basically you're awarded a penny for listing a card as available, and you don't get to keep that penny until you send a card to someone.

You have to realize that the site is just getting started and so has to have a way to put some points into the system to get it going. And just like the currency you all work for there has to be some trust in the system to get it going as well. MOTL could have been a giant flop when it started out as well but members put trust into the system and put effort into making it work and look at what it has grown into.

This site seems like a good idea and has advantages over MOTL. I joined and started using it and have already sent out cards and have cards coming to me.
-It is very easy to make trades as I just send what I have and receive things for my points. As soon as I got points I had a large chunk of my wants list on the way to me. Then I can go in and see what all I have to send and send out for a big chunk of points back to me.
-It is easier to get a lot of cards quickly as I don't have to comb peoples lists and make offers and haggle. Also I don't have to make matches of they have cards I want but I have nothing they want and vice versa.
-There isn't anyone lowballing me or valuing there cards more than mine or unfair trades.
-The owner is responsive and wants to make the site better and is involved.

quote:

---

Originally posted by enduringideal:
I think everyone is way overreacting to this. You are all afraid of the Pucapoint system in that they can put points into the system and about the "value" of them but don't even realize you already participate in the same system everyday. We all work for currency which our government has the power to print everyday which is putting "points" into the system. The value of the currency you work for fluctuates constantly and if your government crashes you lose all that value as well. He has already said he likes the idea of users being able to buy and sell points to each other so that nullifies the argument of you won't have value from left over points.

You have to realize that the site is just getting started and so has to have a way to put some points into the system to get it going. And just like the currency you all work for there has to be some trust in the system to get it going as well. MOTL could have been a giant flop when it started out as well but members put trust into the system and put effort into making it work and look at what it has grown into.

This site seems like a good idea and has advantages over MOTL. I joined and started using it and have already sent out cards and have cards coming to me.
-It is very easy to make trades as I just send what I have and receive things for my points. As soon as I got points I had a large chunk of my wants list on the way to me. Then I can go in and see what all I have to send and send out for a big chunk of points back to me.
-It is easier to get a lot of cards quickly as I don't have to comb peoples lists and make offers and haggle. Also I don't have to make matches of they have cards I want but I have nothing they want and vice versa.
-There isn't anyone lowballing me or valuing there cards more than mine or unfair trades.
-The owner is responsive and wants to make the site better and is involved.

among many more. I like the site and am giving it a chance as it is a great idea. If you don't like it or are afraid of the level of risk then don't use it, simple.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by caquaa:
if you believed any of what you said, you wouldn't be asking for free points. You would trust in the site and send off your cards to others who have points and earn them that way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LemonMeringue:

Where is this money coming from? The same place as where the pucapoints the betatesters get are coming from: nowhere.

Now, we are creating value out of nowhere. Seems great for the people getting the points, for you, since you don't actually give anything up for the donations.

So let's say I donate 100 bucks to your site, and I get the equivalent of 100$ worth of pucabucks. Somebody else sends me 100 dollars worth of magic cards, and he ends up with my points. I paid 100 dollars for 100 dollars worth of cards, and I am happy. You got 100 dollars of donations free, and you are happy. The other guy who sent out his cards, he has these pucapoints that you created out of thin air. However, what's the worth of these pucapoints?

You cannot redeem your pucapoints back into the site for cash.

You can only give your pucapoints to another user for cards. Pucapoints can only be created, once they are in the system they stay there.

If trades are happening, and all the pucapoints are moving around along with cards, it seems fine and it seems to be working. However, the total worth of pucapoints must be equal to the total amount that all the users are negative, in cardboard. Each point was gained by giving away that much worth of cardboard, so each point was paid for in cards.

So, if trading is going on, the total amount of pucapoints is representative of the total deficit of users of the site (people who send cards in for points, not those who get free points). This is all assuming that the site works PERFECTLY and lots of people join and trade.

If there is no way to ever transfer the pucapoints to USD again, won't the community as a whole always be negative that total quantity of cards, if trades are happening?

Who is left holding the bag?

According to wikipedia: A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

People are pumping money (or cards) into this website in exchange for the promise of getting back cards of equal worth in the future. However, these cards always have to come from more and more people. The way this system works, the net effect of this scheme will ALWAYS be losses. There is just absolutely no way for things to come to an equilibrium, where everybody gets back what they put into it. The last person to send cards will always be down.

If you put your money or cards into this, you might get it back. But as a whole, the community will lose money.

---

Wow.. I think you missed one exceptionally important thing. Magic Cards have value. And it is this value in which you are converting to PucaPoints to then trade to either receive PucaPoints or other Magic Cards. If you wish to turn your Magic Cards into USD, use Ebay, or a Card Shop, but there are fees involved and you don't get full value. Thats the jist of it all.

So where is all of this magically created PucaPoints coming from? The Owner's Library of tens of thousands of cards in which he is trading away to get the points back from the Beta Testers. I've already exhausted the gracious bank of points donated to me being a tester in return for Magic Cards to complete my deck. Most of which came from LaysonRail himself.

Now to address your matter of putting in $100 to get then 10,000 PucaPoints worth of Cards, you are happy, but what about the poor schmuck who is left with 10,000 points? Well, he goes and gets 10,000 points worth of cards from people... now he can receive Dual Lands and such. Doesn't hurt to have those lying around. But what if he doesn't want 10,000 PucaPoints as its just Uncommons he wants... well, don't trade off 10,000 points worth of cards! all goes back to my point in my previous post of not expecting this site to protect you from yourself.

PucaTrade isn't here to hoard cash and make millions, its a community tool to further the progress of Magic. If you have hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars in cards right now, you have NO need to BUY points. Just trade for the amount that you feel comfortable and moreover for the amount you need to receive the cards you want. In my beta testing, I noticed that there was no conversion back to USD... but not for the end user, for the Owner. I asked him how he expects to make a profit under the circumstance that no one really needs to BUY any points, just trade to accumulate what they need. I even drew up a plan to create a slight tax between transactions (when you give a card, the person receiving is charged more than you will receive, to which the owner could then accumulate cards and then turn the cards into cash via sale) but he humbly declined as this was a passionate project for him to help a community, not raise a dozen kids in a mansion on main.

You call it a Scheme, and even go as far as to quote wikipedia (nice touch) for a Ponzi Scheme, but you've clearly described to us how little you understand of this process. Its okay. I, nor the owner could ever expect everyone to openly accept a communal form of operating. Instead of thinking about USD going to Euro going to Rupee, think bread for eggs for labor for a tool. Just a different way of thinking/living that many in this world have simply let go of.

As any community, it needs members in order to function. Everyone with a role and purpose. In this case, we all share the same role and purpose, of trading cards and wanting cards in return. If this isn't you, well, good luck to you on your ventures. If it is, well, you should give this a shot as I see no other place out there as sophisticated or thought out with the intent of providing a venue (and monitoring it) without taking something in return. AOL had a chat room where you can discuss the details of a trade for days, weeks, years... I could list plenty of those around (as you all have already done) but nothing where its done as effortlessly as PucaTrade, and without the hassle of dealing with someone else's personality to just make a trade that is in his best interest anyways (so we want them to think).

Props to you LaysonRail, may your efforts be replied with gratitude.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

quote:

---

Originally posted by xORIONx:
Wow.. I think you missed one exceptionally important thing. Magic Cards have value. And it is this value in which you are converting to PucaPoints to then trade to either receive PucaPoints or other Magic Cards. If you wish to turn your Magic Cards into USD, use Ebay, or a Card Shop, but there are fees involved and you don't get full value. Thats the jist of it all.

So where is all of this magically created PucaPoints coming from? The Owner's Library of tens of thousands of cards in which he is trading away to get the points back from the Beta Testers. I've already exhausted the gracious bank of points donated to me being a tester in return for Magic Cards to complete my deck. Most of which came from LaysonRail himself.

Now to address your matter of putting in $100 to get then 10,000 PucaPoints worth of Cards, you are happy, but what about the poor schmuck who is left with 10,000 points? Well, he goes and gets 10,000 points worth of cards from people... now he can receive Dual Lands and such. Doesn't hurt to have those lying around. But what if he doesn't want 10,000 PucaPoints as its just Uncommons he wants... well, don't trade off 10,000 points worth of cards! all goes back to my point in my previous post of not expecting this site to protect you from yourself.

PucaTrade isn't here to hoard cash and make millions, its a community tool to further the progress of Magic. If you have hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars in cards right now, you have NO need to BUY points. Just trade for the amount that you feel comfortable and moreover for the amount you need to receive the cards you want. In my beta testing, I noticed that there was no conversion back to USD... but not for the end user, for the Owner. I asked him how he expects to make a profit under the circumstance that no one really needs to BUY any points, just trade to accumulate what they need. I even drew up a plan to create a slight tax between transactions (when you give a card, the person receiving is charged more than you will receive, to which the owner could then accumulate cards and then turn the cards into cash via sale) but he humbly declined as this was a passionate project for him to help a community, not raise a dozen kids in a mansion on main.

You call it a Scheme, and even go as far as to quote wikipedia (nice touch) for a Ponzi Scheme, but you've clearly described to us how little you understand of this process. Its okay. I, nor the owner could ever expect everyone to openly accept a communal form of operating. Instead of thinking about USD going to Euro going to Rupee, think bread for eggs for labor for a tool. Just a different way of thinking/living that many in this world have simply let go of.

As any community, it needs members in order to function. Everyone with a role and purpose. In this case, we all share the same role and purpose, of trading cards and wanting cards in return. If this isn't you, well, good luck to you on your ventures. If it is, well, you should give this a shot as I see no other place out there as sophisticated or thought out with the intent of providing a venue (and monitoring it) without taking something in return. AOL had a chat room where you can discuss the details of a trade for days, weeks, years... I could list plenty of those around (as you all have already done) but nothing where its done as effortlessly as PucaTrade, and without the hassle of dealing with someone else's personality to just make a trade that is in his best interest anyways (so we want them to think).

Props to you LaysonRail, may your efforts be replied with gratitude.

---

My god, do you wipe his ass too?

This thread has gone on long enough. I'm getting sick of the blatant advertisement of his scam...err site.

Here are the last points that will be made on this thread.

1. He went against MOTL rules and spammed a lot of people here to start his site. He can't even follow our rules and you expect him to follow ones that he set? You expect him to be honest, when he wasn't an honest member here?

2.He had his shill come on here and practically ask for everyone to worship him. If that doesn't leave a bad taste in your mouth, I don't know what to tell you.

3. The way this site is set up, just doesn't make any sense. You all feel that MOTL has too many rules and regulations, and yet you're all already to have this person tell you who you can send cards to? I've heard people say that MOTL is becoming a dictatorship... no, THAT site is a dictatorship. You can't even send cards unless he tells you that you can.

4. The point system also MAKES NO SENSE. A lot of people have posted, and shown why it doesn't. It's not a good concept, not for Magic.

5. Donations for points (and YES I know he's rethinking that.. should have never done it in the FIRST place). It's a horrible, horrible idea.

Regardless, I know that some of you will join it, or already have. I wish you the best of luck and I hope you don't get screwed too badly. Remember, MOTL will always be here for you, and it's Mom will too. I love you guys and I don't want to see you all taken in by this. Be careful. Be very careful. <3

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

I was contacted by one of my MOTLers about a trade that PucaTrade assigned to him. I guess he hadn't thought of looking through our CBTL and checking names against that. So, after he sent the card out, I guess he found out the guy was banned here and asked why. When I said he was banned for ripping, my MOTLer was quite upset.

Just remember everyone who is using this site, it's NOT as safe as MOTL, the users that were banned here are free to roam that site and rip off whomever they want. PLEASE make sure you still check our BTA and CBTL.

Pucatrade is still in it's infancy and you need to treat it as such. I have no idea how they handle their BTA-type cases, or how they handle ripping (I do have an email in to their owner, requesting the info, don't know if he'll respond.)

Please be careful. I'd hate for my MOTLers to get ripped off on another site just as much as I hate it happening here.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.