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Author Topic:   M13 Prerelease Sealed Prize Pools...
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 12:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
So this weekend was obviously the M13 prerelease weekend. My store had 1 midnight sealed on Friday and a regular prelease on Saturday. Each had a $30 entry fee, and both had 20-25 people, 5 rounds Friday, 4 Saturday. I was able to squeeze out first both nights. For my hard work and effort, I was awarded 4 boosters each night. In total I spent $60 to get 20 boosters, prizes and sealed pool combined, which to anyone else who plays this game partially for value, is actually a worse value than buying a booster box. Basically, for kicking ass both nights I got a swift kick in the ass.

Down to the questions: 1) What kind of setup does your LGS have? Entry fee? Prize pool? Player numbers? And 2) If anyone here has any ties with Wizards, what kind of support does Wizards send out to the LGS for this?

I asked question 1 in Tom Ma's stream and most people were saying for first in tournaments of similar costs/numbers people were getting a half of a box to an entire box, which is extremely irritating to me. Thanks in advance for your input.

EDIT: It was a midnight sealed, not draft. Was super tired when typing.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by WeeJiggler on July 08, 2012]

 
JoshSherman
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posted July 08, 2012 01:32 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JoshSherman Click Here to Email JoshSherman Send a private message to JoshSherman Click to send JoshSherman an Instant MessageVisit JoshSherman's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View JoshSherman's Trade Auction or SaleView JoshSherman's Trade Auction or Sale
You paid $30 for a draft? Why?

Start with the base sealed-- 2 packs per player for prize at $25 entry. For a $30 sealed, I would do 3.5 packs per player for the prize pool. Each player that plays every round gets one pack for each match win. Then the rest of the prize pool is split up among top X, where X is the number of rounds.

I am aware that this system can penalize you for the number of players in the event, especially around the line for another round, but I think it's the best way to go about a prerelease.

25 to 35 players would have netted you somewhere between 5 and twelve packs plus your match win packs.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by JoshSherman on July 08, 2012]

 
seraphfire
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posted July 08, 2012 01:38 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for seraphfire Click Here to Email seraphfire Send a private message to seraphfire Click to send seraphfire an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Pre-releases are among the lowest EV formats are there. Variance is high, mainly because no one has figured out the set yet, so trying to outplay people is somewhat difficult. Because pre-releases tend to attract casual players, a lot of stores go for a flat prize structure instead of going top-heavy. Mix it all together, and you have an awesome money-sink (or money-maker for stores if you want to look at it from the other side).
 
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 01:49 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
@seraphire For 21 people he gave out about 18 packs.
 
junichi
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posted July 08, 2012 01:57 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
Your store is a rip off. Reflect the situation to Wizard's customer service/DCI, and have them investigate to see if the store is pocketing the prize packs for their own gain.

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TimeBeing
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posted July 08, 2012 01:58 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
WOTC doesn't give much to the stores and they want them to spreed it out. Some stores add prizes to the pool some don't.

Mine gives out a good payout if you go undefeated (like half a box but you only get half of it now the rest you get when the set comes out) x-1 and lower it like 3 packs then 2 then 1

[Edited 1 times, lastly by TimeBeing on July 08, 2012]

 
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 02:10 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
All of the people saying sometimes stores distribute the packs evenly: Only the top 1/3 or MAYBE 1/2 even get packs. First place 4, second and third 3, 4th 5th and 6th get 2, and then a couple 1's.

[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b377/Eksor/th_doublefirstprereleaseedi ted.jpg[/IMG]

There was 23 and 21 people at the tournaments, and less than that many packs were given out.

EDIT: And thanks junichi, I'll talk to the owners myself, and if they don't do anything, I will.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by WeeJiggler on July 08, 2012]

 
coolio
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posted July 08, 2012 07:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
WOTC doesn't give much to the stores and they want them to spreed it out. Some stores add prizes to the pool some don't.

Mine gives out a good payout if you go undefeated (like half a box but you only get half of it now the rest you get when the set comes out) x-1 and lower it like 3 packs then 2 then 1


you understand that the product sent out to stores account for this.. that the min required payout is 2 packs in the pool per player right? this is actually required for PRs

ę

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by coolio on July 08, 2012]

 
mm1983
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posted July 08, 2012 07:47 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
Store I play at for prereleases charges $25 to play and for prizes they do 8 packs for 4 and 0, 3 packs for 3 and 1 or 3 0 and 1 and 1 pack for everyone else just for playing. Out of 36 people that there were yesterday it was possible for 3 people to go undefeated and win 8 packs with probably about 9 other people winning 3 packs and everyone else getting 1 pack which means the store gave out about a total of 75 packs for prizes
 
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 08:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I guess my next question is: is it ok for a store to take money as entry fee beyond the cost of boosters and not turn it around into prize pool? As an example my store charges sixdollars per person more than the cost of boosters. Are they allowed to only use the wizards prize support and pocket the six bucks? That seems like it's them making money off of something that wizards is doing for the players and they are just hosting for wizards. I could be wrong though.
 
Hooskdaddy
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posted July 08, 2012 09:00 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Hooskdaddy Click Here to Email Hooskdaddy Send a private message to Hooskdaddy Click to send Hooskdaddy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
No its not wrong for them to charge that much. Some stores charge $25, some $30, some $30 then $25 on the next flight you enter. Stores have to make money too.
If done right stores are paying roughly $2.05 per pack and wizards mandates a minimum of 2 packs per person in the prize pool. So for each entry theres 8 total packs used (6 for sealed pool and 2 for prize support). So roughly $16.40 is what they have in a prerelease pool for each player. Some stores add more prize support especially if they dont feel they will run out, some dont. It really just comes down to whether or not your LGS owner is good or not.
Also prereleases are basically a thank you for the store owners from wotc for carrying there product and providing an environment for their product to flourish through gameplay. As a former store owner theres not an amazing profit margin in selling sealed product. For ever one box i would sell as packs, i would sell 10 sealed boxes and only make like $15 profit on a sealed box. So wizards "allows" LGS owners to essentially double up during prereleases to help compensate them. The other big gift to LGS are the FTV sets but thats a whole other story.
 
nderdog
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posted July 08, 2012 09:03 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by WeeJiggler:
All of the people saying sometimes stores distribute the packs evenly: Only the top 1/3 or MAYBE 1/2 even get packs. First place 4, second and third 3, 4th 5th and 6th get 2, and then a couple 1's.

[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b377/Eksor/th_doublefirstprereleaseedi ted.jpg[/IMG]

There was 23 and 21 people at the tournaments, and less than that many packs were given out.

EDIT: And thanks junichi, I'll talk to the owners myself, and if they don't do anything, I will.


Yes, that is very against WotC rules. Even the Prerelease website notes that prize support must be 2 packs per person entering the tournament. There's no specifics on how those packs should be awarded, but they must all be given out, if not more at the store's discretion.

edit:

quote:
Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
No its not wrong for them to charge that much. Some stores charge $25, some $30, some $30 then $25 on the next flight you enter. Stores have to make money too.

I disagree. There's a huge difference between stores making money and flat-out ripping people off. If a store charges $30 for a draft, unless they're in a country where the cost of packs is significantly more expensive than the US, unless they're adding a ton of extra prize support, they are taking advantage of their customers.
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[Edited 1 times, lastly by nderdog on July 08, 2012]

Hooskdaddy
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posted July 08, 2012 09:59 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Hooskdaddy Click Here to Email Hooskdaddy Send a private message to Hooskdaddy Click to send Hooskdaddy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Nderdog

I agree $30 is way too high for a draft. I used to charge $15 with the standard 8-4 or 4-3-2-2 payouts.
i was more speaking just as a sealed event and not drafts. As far as those i charged $30 for first flight and $25 for the second one but i also gave out 3 packs per person for prize support

 
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 11:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Alright. My LGS was way under the mandated amount. So regardless of anything else they jacked over 40 packs
 
B14ckM4g3
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posted July 08, 2012 01:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for B14ckM4g3 Click Here to Email B14ckM4g3 Send a private message to B14ckM4g3 Click to send B14ckM4g3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
a friend and I tied for first at one of my LGS.

We split a box of m13. 18 packs each. this place got 8 packs. 4th through 6th got 6 packs, and everyone else got 1 pack per match win.

Your store sucks.

 
Lord Crovax
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posted July 08, 2012 01:13 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeeJiggler:
Alright. My LGS was way under the mandated amount. So regardless of anything else they jacked over 40 packs

Long run, find a new store, as odds are if you speak up at all, you'r being doing so anyways as you will get banned, least that what happened when my LGS ran a 30 person Pre-release and gave out 21 packs total.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by Lord Crovax on July 08, 2012]

 
mtglover
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posted July 08, 2012 01:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mtglover Click Here to Email mtglover Send a private message to mtglover Click to send mtglover an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mtglover's Have/Want ListView mtglover's Have/Want List
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stu55
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posted July 08, 2012 05:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for stu55 Click Here to Email stu55 Send a private message to stu55 Click to send stu55 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
The more I read this, the more I think the OP just doesnt know what is going on..

1) He got 20 packs, or at most 40% of the what was allowed to be given out for the 2 packs per person. That leaves only 60% for the rest of the ppl in both events

2) He is complaining about stores having to make money to pay their employees or run the store in general

 
Hooskdaddy
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posted July 08, 2012 05:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Hooskdaddy Click Here to Email Hooskdaddy Send a private message to Hooskdaddy Click to send Hooskdaddy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stu55:
The more I read this, the more I think the OP just doesnt know what is going on..

1) He got 20 packs, or at most 40% of the what was allowed to be given out for the 2 packs per person. That leaves only 60% for the rest of the ppl in both events

2) He is complaining about stores having to make money to pay their employees or run the store in general


Stu. If you go back and read the OP he states he was awarded 20 packs between his prize pool and sealed pools over both nights 6 packs per pool and 4 packs per first place finish for a total of 20 packs.

 
thror
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posted July 08, 2012 05:28 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
He wasnt 'awarded' 20 packs. He got twelve for playing, and EIGHT for WINNING TWO EVENTS. Unless each event was a four man (16 prize packs available minimum overall), he got ripped off.

Basically, he played in two 20 man 4-3-2-2's.....
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[Edited 1 times, lastly by thror on July 08, 2012]

 
blackmoon74x9
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posted July 08, 2012 07:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for blackmoon74x9 Click Here to Email blackmoon74x9 Send a private message to blackmoon74x9 Click to send blackmoon74x9 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I feel spoiled with my shop that I play at cause it's $30 to play and first place always walks away with a box and a bunch of other stuff. Then it goes half a box, a bunch of goodies he finds then it goes down from there even last place gets a few packs. The best part about it is that only if 16 people show first is still getting a box and a bunch of goodies.

 
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 07:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Yeah, what the previous two had said. I got my 6 sealed boosters each night, totaling 12, and then for first place each night I got 4, totaling 8, for 20 total. Which means I was given 4 packs per night, or less than 10% (9.6% to be exact) of the prize pool. With 21 people, this means -at minimum- the top 50% of the people should have gotten my -exact same prize- but only 2 people even got 3, and 3 people got 2. And a couple got 1.

As far as complaining about a store making money? I'm a business management student graduating in 4 months, and I am planning on opening my own store when I'm done. I've done my research, I know how LGS make money. 21 people, 2.10c per pack is what they pay, 1.90 is what they make. 6 packs per person is 11.40$ they are making per person, so about 250$ off sales -just for the 6 packs needed to even play.- per day. Not to mention if they did 1.5 more packs per person for prize support, it would be another 60$ in product sales, plus the random boosters and pop/chips. They make almost $500 a day on this, and they have no employees. yes, they need to make a living, but $1000 on a weekend -after variable costs- but before fixed costs is pretty dang good.

You should try reading before insulting me next time. =\

[Edited 1 times, lastly by WeeJiggler on July 08, 2012]

 
Zeckk
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posted July 08, 2012 10:54 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
Any business operating on $1k a weekend is in the dumps. The most successful LGSs in Vegas run MTG and other card games as supplemental income, while comic books bring in the majority of the revenue. The situation you brought up is definitely shady in terms of the prize payout, but it's not like this is the first time a LGS has been skimpy with the prize support. Deal with the owner or go somewhere else.
 
WeeJiggler
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posted July 08, 2012 11:23 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeeJiggler Click Here to Email WeeJiggler Send a private message to WeeJiggler Click to send WeeJiggler an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I understand that, Zeckk, but the city my LGS is in (about 40 minutes from me) is also such a low-income level city that you can rent a halfway decent apartment for only $250 a month. So 1000 a weekend actually isn't all that bad. But yeah, I intend on dealing with one of the owners.
 

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