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Originally posted by rockondon:
I'd rather take a good proxy over a foreign real card that has to be explained what it does to everybody.

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Originally posted by rockondon:
I'd rather take a good proxy over a foreign real card that has to be explained what it does to everybody.

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-1

Honestly, where I am at, proxies are pretty much frowned upon, no matter what the situation, unless you are testing for something that doesn't exist yet (like Gatebrash) or try it before you buy it.

I had a concept and I proxied every single card just because of the way our playgroup is.

__________________
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Originally posted by keywacat:
Even they are proxies of cards he owns, and can prove, on the spot, that he owns at least one copy of?

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Part of it is that I have gone through an effort to acquire the cards I use. It cheapens the experience when the person I'm playing with didn't go through the same effort.

If I only own 1x of a useful card, say Sol Ring, and I want to use it in all my commander decks I move it from sleeve to sleeve before starting the game. It makes it easier for everybody because I don't have to explain or justify anything. I hope that people I meet will go through the same level of effort to make the game enjoyable for me.

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Originally posted by rockondon:
after adding the last two posts who scored me it looks like I'm breaking even and I'm pretty comfortable with that.

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Isn't this really a discussion for your playgroup?

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+1

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Originally posted by ermabwed:
I own literally every card, and I prefer to play real games. Bringing a gun to a stick fight is only funny a couple times. I much prefer my opponents using proxies and playing real decks, whatever the format.

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Originally posted by frankenskid:
Except for a few grossly overpriced items, I am the same way.
I would rather play a real game with proxies than club baby seals because they can't afford a force of will.

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If you're the kind of person who thinks you need Force of Will to not be playing 'baby seal' magic, I'd rather play you without it, because winning will be that much more fun.

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Originally posted by Devonin:
If you're the kind of person who thinks you need Force of Will to not be playing 'baby seal' magic, I'd rather play you without it, because winning will be that much more fun.

Expensive cards are highly overrated. I once took 2nd place at a standard FNM with a deck containing 3 rares, 0 mythics and 0 planeswalkers. Fun times.

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Good for you... so you can choose not to proxy Force of Will if you don't want to. That doesn't necessarily mean someone else that can't afford it shouldn't have the option of proxying it in his deck.

Yes, it can be fun to challenge yourself to build a deck that doesn't include expensive cards and do well with it. It can also be frustrating to be forced to do that because you simply don't own and/or can't afford the expensive (or dififcult to find) cards. Regardless of whether you can or can not do well with or without those cards, having the option to play with them certainly makes Magic life easier.

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Originally posted by daner:
Considering the wide range of responses.....this seems like the most logical answer. What does YOUR playgroup think?

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As I'm the organizer / most experienced player the core of my playgroup fairly well goes along with what I suggest.

After reading the responses here I am going to push for them to proxy away, as it is frustrating to play against a lower-power deck and crush it before anything really gets going. The obvious 'well switch decks / lower the power of yours!' doesn't help as my friends also have multiple decks and I don't always know if they want to play their flagship commander or something more experimental.

Not everyone has the time, money or inclination to go chasing after all the cards to really tune a deck out. In my opinion that shouldn't limit someone in a casual format, especially among good friends. The thing I wonder about is how will their proxies be received if they play outside the group? If say my friend running Mayeal has a proxy Maze of Ith, Craterhoof Behemoth and two or three other random expensive / hard to find cards that make the deck run better how will other people react? Refuse to play any further? I don't know.

But,

using proxies has been brainwashed into me that its dirty/wrong. I feel like I'm cheating if I'm using proxies, even if they other players gave me the go ahead.

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Originally posted by mcelraca:
I just thought I would add, and this isn't to judge anyone else. And I think I put my actual opinion on proxies earlier.

But,

using proxies has been brainwashed into me that its dirty/wrong. I feel like I'm cheating if I'm using proxies, even if they other players gave me the go ahead.

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Eh, like ermabwed, I also own every card, save for the P9 and obscure rarities. I could build any EDH deck. I don't care if the dude is proxying Nethr Void and Imperial Seal; not all decks need it, and I buy the cards because I like having them around. I don't want lack of money/willingness to spend prevent me from playing a good game of Magic.

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Originally posted by frankenskid:
It's not just FoW, but alot of other stuff, many people in my area can't afford 75$ for a majority of the dual lands.... Hell I give away alot of commons and uncommons for people's decks, but that's just for simplicity's sake. Unless it's a sanctioned tournament, and then I still wouldn't care even if wizards does, proxies should be no problem. It's pure arrogance to try and apply a "don't have it, can't play it" mentality, and tends to shut people out that are interested in the format. I know everyone knows "that guy" that takes advantage of the proxies rule, but it's really not a big deal for the most part.

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You also don't need original dual lands or even shocklands to be competitive in the "it's casual lets just have fun" way. In fact, there are all kinds of ways you can give yourself the advantage using basic lands.

Coastal Tower and even Wizards' School can support some sort of deck, I guess, but once you don't have real duals the fetch lands don't play the same at all, and the game is very different. With duals a true five-color deck is quite reasonable; without them you have to think hard about mana costs in a 3 color deck.

And although I'm generally easy-going when it comes to proxies, I felt that the guy who proxied mana drain and other high-priced cards that he didn't own was going too far. I wouldn't bat an eye if someone had good proxies of duals and fetchlands, but cards like drain, grim tutor, imperial seal, etc - that's a different story.

I have a nm workshop in one of my edh decks. I wonder if people would care if I proxied it so that I could preserve its condition and keep it at home. Probably not.

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Originally posted by rockondon:
I remember one game where I played an underground sea and one of the other players jokingly called me a noob and said watch this....he played a FOIL underground sea. It had snazzy art that covered the entire card and we all had a big laugh. I don't think that the idea that he should not be allowed to proxy a $100 card crossed anyone's mind.

And although I'm generally easy-going when it comes to proxies, I felt that the guy who proxied mana drain and other high-priced cards that he didn't own was going too far. I wouldn't bat an eye if someone had good proxies of duals and fetchlands, but cards like drain, grim tutor, imperial seal, etc - that's a different story.

I have a nm workshop in one of my edh decks. I wonder if people would care if I proxied it so that I could preserve its condition and keep it at home. Probably not.

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It's slightly annoying when people proxy 10 cent uncommons, especially when they do it poorly and you can't tell what it is.

I have 2 Nether Void. They are currently in (and out of) my Legacy Pox. If I'm going to play EDH with my black general, and want to put NV in it, why shouldn't I be able to make a proxy for it instead of pulling out of another deck? People are bringing up tournaments and hell, if it's a no proxy tournament, you are bring the one deck you want to play anyway. So, of course you will put all the real cards in it for that reason.

If it's not for a tourny, and the person does own the card, why should they not be able to proxy for other decks?

To push them on it I decided to make some proxies of cards I own and would like to see different art for or want to play in multiple decks. I started with Command Tower: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Card%20Images/EDH%20Comm and%20Tower.pdf?w=AADlEtXHJDMacqyBk7eQ9sBGDWT1Vil3-5PPsZyAaBINEQ

(original image courtesy of 'Shunma': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8625828)

The original image has all 5 mana symbols on the card, ironically making it illegal for EDH.

Cheers to you lot for the discussion and civility during it.

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Originally posted by keywacat:

The original image has all 5 mana symbols on the card, ironically making it illegal for EDH.

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Unless you're using a 5-color general

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Originally posted by Devonin:
Unless you're using a 5-color general

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