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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
So, since these aren't legal for play and basically just the best possible proxies you could get what would be reasonble values on dark beta cards?

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Really guy?

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
if this wasn't MOTL

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Uh, well it is.

And it's not like this is a large market where you can compare prices. Or say, look up completed listings on Ebay.

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Anyway, ok I can understand not wanting to discuss values if considered actually illegal. Brings me to a different question:

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
Really guy?

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I am not your guy, friend!

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
Just asking man as before this post I never heard of these in the 10+ years I've been playing.

Anyway, ok I can understand not wanting to discuss values if considered actually illegal. Brings me to a different question:

Where is the fine line between legal and illegal proxies? I mean, proxies are not illegal to own/create right? There are proxy tournaments all the time. These just happen to be of the highest quality. So, please help me gain perspective on at what point a proxy becomes illegal (a proxy you are NOT trying to pass off as the real thing). Thanks as always, I just like to deepen my understanding of the issue.

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Generally, it's never okay to make realistic proxies. Sharpie + basic land/crap common/etc. is an appropriate proxy, but making a proxy that looks exactly like a real card is breaking copyright laws. Usually it's overlooked, but technically it's not okay. As soon as someone tries to sell a proxy that includes any of Wizards' copyrighted elements (picture, mana symbols, card back, etc.) that's usually when people are liable to get into trouble. This is why the old Gaming Etc. proxies (different art, no mana symbols, different card name) are fine, but most other proxies aren't allowed on MOTL.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Generally, it's never okay to make realistic proxies. Sharpie + basic land/crap common/etc. is an appropriate proxy, but making a proxy that looks exactly like a real card is breaking copyright laws. Usually it's overlooked, but technically it's not okay. As soon as someone tries to sell a proxy that includes any of Wizards' copyrighted elements (picture, mana symbols, card back, etc.) that's usually when people are liable to get into trouble. This is why the old Gaming Etc. proxies (different art, no mana symbols, different card name) are fine, but most other proxies aren't allowed on MOTL.

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Originally posted by Aznopium:
I am not your guy, friend!

( just had to... )

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Originally posted by coolio:
you do realize, they will pass the tests, because they were printed at carta mundi, after hours, on actual card stock right? but they're not part of the wotc commissioned run.. these'll pass all those card stock etc tests, but they're blurry on sight, and held next to a real beta card. good luck researching more on this, there's only a handful of people in the country that are familiar/knowledgeable on it, and two of us have already posted here. none of the people you've referenced are amongst those I'd consider to be in that group.

©

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Coolio's comments raised an interesting (and somewhat scary) point to me.

We have these "dark Beta fakes" which are, by all reliable and non-subjective authenticity tests, identical to "legitimate print run" cards.

These were, from Coolio's post, printed on the same stock and printing facility as the original sets. That's the equivalent of printing fake money at the US Mint.

If only a few more experienced collectors/dealers can distinguish - on a, no offense intended, subjective criterion of "looks blurry next to a beta card" - what makes the Magic/MOTL community believe there aren't other "printed after hours" copies which are 100% undistinguishable?

My point on the "subjective criterion" is not, I should note, to diminish Coolio or Slinga's knowledge or authority on this. It's just that if even THEY only distinguish these by something like the "blurry look", it stands to reason that a similar print run with that aspect corrected would be genuinely undistinguishable, by any means whatsoever, to them and to everyone on Earth.

It also stands to reason that whoever managed to print the "dark Beta" run would be willing (and able) to correct the remaining differences and repeat the process...

Comments VERY welcome.

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Originally posted by yoriagami:
Also, as an appeal to Coolio/Ben/whoever has "dark Beta" cards, would you be willing to post scans online of any "dark Betas" next to one or more genuine card copies, so that the rest of us may have a better shot at distinguishing the fakes in the future?

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Originally posted by Pail42:
As yoriagami points out there are likely indistinguishable fakes in existence that are only considered "fake" because they were unauthorized. If you're in the real facility with the real printing machine using the real cardstock and presumably the real source controls for the machine why wouldn't you end up with a "real" card*. If this crime has happened once you have to expect it has or will happen again.

*I'm not in the business of printing cards, but I can see possible reasons why you might create a bad batch - accident, lack of training on the equipment, out of correct ink.

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Heh, member since 2001, not ref's since 2004, still posting.

I find this perspective interesting and refreshing in the discussion of cards like this. We know there are misprints/miscuts/etc. We know sometimes you can get cards in packs where the color is a little off. Nobody cares if it's a chimney imp but in the case of the cards obviously they'd be scrutinized more.

How do we know they were made after hours anyway? If they pass all the tests and the color is just a little darker how do we know they weren't in the legit print run and just the printers were a little off that day.

I've come across 2 or 3 of these before, and the biggest tip-off for me is the card text tends to be slightly blurry, not sharp and crisp like on real cards. Real cards from A/B sometimes were a little darker than normal, so I wouldn't use that to automatically dismiss a card as fake. I've NEVER seen a real card have fuzzy text like that.