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Author Topic:   Fake Power on Ebay
Tha Gunslinga
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posted May 24, 2013 05:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-JET-MTG-NM-RARE-GORGEOUS-/290905768207?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item43bb55c10f

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-PEARL-MTG-NM-RARE-GORGEOUS-/290905771202?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item43bb55ccc2

Dark Beta. Watch out.

stab107
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posted May 24, 2013 05:41 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for stab107 Click Here to Email stab107 Send a private message to stab107 Click to send stab107 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View stab107's Have/Want ListView stab107's Have/Want List
I'm looking at those and something is telling me to be suspicious (other than 'slinga's post). After a bit I realized the inner border is too dark. I also think the colors are too rich. Is this correct or is there another indicator? Asking because it is nice to know when these things crop up.
 
dwiz
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posted May 24, 2013 12:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-JET-MTG-NM-RARE- GORGEOUS-/290905768207?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item43bb55c10f

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-PEARL-MTG-NM-RARE -GORGEOUS-/290905771202?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item43bb55ccc2

Dark Beta. Watch out.


Did you alert the seller? He has thousands of alphas and betas. He should be able to detect fakes.

 
Magicmasonry
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posted May 24, 2013 08:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magicmasonry Click Here to Email Magicmasonry Send a private message to Magicmasonry Click to send Magicmasonry an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hello, this is the seller of the item in question. The item belongs to my father who has owned it since the mid 90's. When I took on the task of selling off his collection I myself looked at this card and thought it seemed strange, the colors on the back are rich. However, when my father purchased the card back in the day, along with all his other power, all the cards passed all the tests of the time including the bend test. Since I have started selling his collection I have had several people from dealers and serious collectors over my house to thoroughly examine them as well use the flashlight test. Nick Vallas, a big time collector who recently bought a sealed starter box of Alpha/Beta, was interested in buying my entire collection and had concerns about some of the power as well, so I allowed him to thoroughly examine the cards and he concluded that everything was indeed legit. He made me a respectable offer for everything but I declined as I can get much more individually with some time and effort. Matt Daigle from CTcon has also been over to see my stuff and hasn't seen any problems. I have sold over 20K worth of Alpha and Beta alone from this collection so far and have had no complaints, hence my perfect feedback. So, as it stands, the cards are indeed real and I'd appreciate if you would delete this thread unless you intend to amend it, I could always use the publicity
 
thror
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posted May 24, 2013 08:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
not to say its fake, but if slinga says its fake, it probably is.

__________________
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<@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
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Tha Gunslinga
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posted May 25, 2013 08:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
Those particular cards are fake, and if you sell them, the buyer will most likely file a claim and Paypal will have the buyer destroy the cards.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45345.msg626397#new

Look, someone who told you they were fake!

Magicmasonry
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posted May 25, 2013 07:11 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magicmasonry Click Here to Email Magicmasonry Send a private message to Magicmasonry Click to send Magicmasonry an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Yeah, that's Nick Vallas who I mentioned. He said he thought they looked sketchy, then he examined them. They passed both the light test and the bend test. If he wasnt convinced then ask him why he was working out a deal with me for the collection. Tell you what, I'm going to take them down, and buy a blacklight and see if they pass the blacklight test. Then, if they pass that I will even try the water test one of them, just to be sure.
 
thror
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posted May 25, 2013 07:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Vallas on The Mana Drain:
I looked at his collection in person and warned him several were definitely fake.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

<@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
<@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

<@Anusien> Pretty sure New Zealanders are the sheep shaggers
<KIP_NZ> Anusien: I'm a kiwi and I've shagged a sheep



[Edited 1 times, lastly by thror on May 25, 2013]

 
coolio
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posted May 25, 2013 07:38 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Magicmasonry:
Yeah, that's Nick Vallas who I mentioned. He said he thought they looked sketchy, then he examined them. They passed both the light test and the bend test. If he wasnt convinced then ask him why he was working out a deal with me for the collection. Tell you what, I'm going to take them down, and buy a blacklight and see if they pass the blacklight test. Then, if they pass that I will even try the water test one of them, just to be sure.

funny, NV just posted today, on that same thread that he still thought it was sketch

quote:
I looked at his collection in person and warned him several were definitely fake. He arrogantly told me I was wrong. He tried to tell me there are several alpha/beta variations. They seemed to pass the light test. How is this possible?

the fact that he thinks it looks sketch, but doesnt know why, means he's not as well informed on the area of dark beta.. there were a lot of this stuff floating around when you claimed your father bought them.. there are several of us on here who are very familiar with these.. slinga owns several pieces last I recall.. I've handled more than my share over the years as someone who others go to to verify this stuff.. there's a few others on the site that are also very well versed on the topic

these cards will pass any test any of the real alpha/beta stuff passes.. so your point of, I did the blah-blah-so-and-so test is meaningless.. but if you want to check yourself over to the rarities forums at magiclibrarities.net most of the collectors there will agree with slinga's assessment. doesnt mean they arent legit.. these were not part of the wotc commissioned print run last I recall..

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
-Seneca the Younger

 
Magicmasonry
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posted May 25, 2013 08:05 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magicmasonry Click Here to Email Magicmasonry Send a private message to Magicmasonry Click to send Magicmasonry an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Okay, he never said to me, "these are definitely fake". As he even said, he tested them, and they passed, and that was good enough for the guy who arrogantly said he "already owns all this stuff". Why else would he offer me money for them if he thought they were fake. At no point in our dealings did he say, "okay I'll take everything here, except these moxes cuz I think they're fake". Nope, he wanted it all. So really, I think he's only saying he said this now because I turned down his offer for everything. As for me "arrogantly" saying there are different versions of alpha/beta cards, there are. I just now grabbed a handful of beta cards and found several commons and uncommons that have darker backings. Also, some beta cards have a darker inner border which someone tried pointing out, but this is known and not that uncommon. There were tons of inconsistencies in the early print runs of magic. I'm an honest dealer and have no intentions of selling fake cards, and my judgement of these particular cards has been based on several dealers looking at them as well as Nick doing the flashlight test on them and then proceeding to offer me money for them, thus solidifying the idea of them not being fake. However, since you guys dont seem convinced it has got me wondering again, so I am going to investigate them even further to be certain. If they don't pass the blacklight test then I guess we'll know for sure. In my experience though, I've NEVER seen fakes from back then pass both the bend test and the light test. There was a run of fakes in '98 that were very convincing but they all failed the bend test.
 
coolio
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posted May 25, 2013 08:11 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Magicmasonry:
Okay, he never said to me, "these are definitely fake". As he even said, he tested them, and they passed, and that was good enough for the guy who arrogantly said he "already owns all this stuff". Why else would he offer me money for them if he thought they were fake. At no point in our dealings did he say, "okay I'll take everything here, except these moxes cuz I think they're fake". Nope, he wanted it all. So really, I think he's only saying he said this now because I turned down his offer for everything. As for me "arrogantly" saying there are different versions of alpha/beta cards, there are. I just now grabbed a handful of beta cards and found several commons and uncommons that have darker backings. Also, some beta cards have a darker inner border which someone tried pointing out, but this is known and not that uncommon. There were tons of inconsistencies in the early print runs of magic. I'm an honest dealer and have no intentions of selling fake cards, and my judgement of these particular cards has been based on several dealers looking at them as well as Nick doing the flashlight test on them and then proceeding to offer me money for them, thus solidifying the idea of them not being fake. However, since you guys dont seem convinced it has got me wondering again, so I am going to investigate them even further to be certain. If they don't pass the blacklight test then I guess we'll know for sure. In my experience though, I've NEVER seen fakes from back then pass both the bend test and the light test. There was a run of fakes in '98 that were very convincing but they all failed the bend test.

you do realize, they will pass the tests, because they were printed at carta mundi, after hours, on actual card stock right? but they're not part of the wotc commissioned run.. these'll pass all those card stock etc tests, but they're blurry on sight, and held next to a real beta card. good luck researching more on this, there's only a handful of people in the country that are familiar/knowledgeable on it, and two of us have already posted here. none of the people you've referenced are amongst those I'd consider to be in that group.

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
-Seneca the Younger

 
Magicmasonry
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posted May 25, 2013 08:27 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magicmasonry Click Here to Email Magicmasonry Send a private message to Magicmasonry Click to send Magicmasonry an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
No I was not aware of this. How do you know where and how they were printed? What is the way to test them then?
 
anklbreka20
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posted May 25, 2013 08:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for anklbreka20 Click Here to Email anklbreka20 Send a private message to anklbreka20 Click to send anklbreka20 an Instant MessageVisit anklbreka20's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View anklbreka20's Trade Auction or SaleView anklbreka20's Trade Auction or Sale
http://classic.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/024923.html

Post about dark beta from a couple years ago.

 
thror
Member
posted May 25, 2013 09:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Magicmasonry:
What is the way to test them then?

there isnt a good way, you just have to know it when you see it. these are printed on authentic card stock, at the actual print facility wotc used at the time. the only issues are:
1) they're darker than normal
2) they we're printed illegally

beyond that, they are real cards and will pass all the tests real cards pass. however, they were never supposed to get printed in the first place.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

<@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
<@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

<@Anusien> Pretty sure New Zealanders are the sheep shaggers
<KIP_NZ> Anusien: I'm a kiwi and I've shagged a sheep

 
Magicmasonry
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posted May 25, 2013 09:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magicmasonry Click Here to Email Magicmasonry Send a private message to Magicmasonry Click to send Magicmasonry an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Wow, thank you for posting that. I honestly didn't know "dark beta" was a thing. I guess you learn something everyday. I just thought they were darker, like I have several cards with darker backs like commons and stuff. After looking at these moxes and comparing with that moat though, it's identical on the back. Now it makes sense why they've passed all the tests. Technically these ARE real cards. I've already closed the listings and will certainly not be selling these. Sucks, but at least I know how to identify these now. Upon closer inspection I'm noticing a pinkish outline that appears to follow the left side of the purple "oval" on the back of the card, this is the most identifiable inconsistency I've been able to find, other than that it just looks a bit dark. Best fakes I've ever encountered or even heard of. Unbelievable.
 
LandDestroyer
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posted May 29, 2013 01:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
So, since these aren't legal for play and basically just the best possible proxies you could get what would be reasonble values on dark beta cards?
 
dwiz
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posted May 29, 2013 01:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
So, since these aren't legal for play and basically just the best possible proxies you could get what would be reasonble values on dark beta cards?

Best possible value? Be like the ebay seller and don't say they're fake.

 
LandDestroyer
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posted May 29, 2013 01:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by dwiz:
Best possible value? Be like the ebay seller and don't say they're fake.

Lol, I meant if someone was buying these as a present for someone's collection and/or use in 10 proxy tournaments. What would be the appropriate value on stuff like this?

 
Devonin
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posted May 29, 2013 02:18 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
Lol, I meant if someone was buying these as a present for someone's collection and/or use in 10 proxy tournaments. What would be the appropriate value on stuff like this?

Nothing. These are illegal counterfeit products, and purchasing them is against the law. Wizards of the Coast could actually have you arrested for selling them or knowingly buying them.

 
dwiz
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posted May 29, 2013 02:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
Nothing. These are illegal counterfeit products, and purchasing them is against the law. Wizards of the Coast could actually have you arrested for selling them or knowingly buying them.

As could the government for putting 51 cents into those machines and turning a penny into a souvenir by destroying it....

They have value, you just have to have no morals to sell them without the other party knowing. If they're sold online, the seller will probably lose the cards and the money on a chargeback.

 
Devonin
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posted May 29, 2013 02:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by dwiz:
As could the government for putting 51 cents into those machines and turning a penny into a souvenir by destroying it....

They have value, you just have to have no morals to sell them without the other party knowing. If they're sold online, the seller will probably lose the cards and the money on a chargeback.



Except that if you show up to any WOTC run events and anybody sees you with them, at minimum they're going to confiscate them on you.

 
dwiz
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posted May 29, 2013 02:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:

Except that if you show up to any WOTC run events and anybody sees you with them, at minimum they're going to confiscate them on you.

Cause it happened once in 20 years?

 
Devonin
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posted May 29, 2013 02:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
Okay, so pay a fortune for illegal fake cards, and then see what happens if WOTC decides to take them away from you because you had them out at something official.

Sure, it will -probably- never happen, but it's a pretty stupid risk for several thousand dollars.

 
LandDestroyer
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posted May 29, 2013 02:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
Okay, so pay a fortune for illegal fake cards, and then see what happens if WOTC decides to take them away from you because you had them out at something official.

Sure, it will -probably- never happen, but it's a pretty stupid risk for several thousand dollars.


That's assuming you pay a fortune. What I'm asking is what's a fair price based on situation. I figure less than CE cards. How much less. Example if this wasn't MOTL and you ran into someone selling similiar stuff in person how much is max you'd pay? Also, what about for cheaper cards? I think it'd be neat collection wise to own lightning bolts like this even if not legal.

 
nderdog
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posted May 29, 2013 03:09 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
That's assuming you pay a fortune. What I'm asking is what's a fair price based on situation. I figure less than CE cards. How much less. Example if this wasn't MOTL and you ran into someone selling similiar stuff in person how much is max you'd pay? Also, what about for cheaper cards? I think it'd be neat collection wise to own lightning bolts like this even if not legal.

Discussion of values of illegal items is not allowed on MOTL. Take it elsewhere.

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