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Originally posted by Devonin:
Almost nobody is willing to pay the actual value of original art.

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
If no one wants to pay it, it's not worth that much then. Magic art is unique, yes, but ultimately supply and demand are what price an item, and the demand really isn't there. Until more people want to put Magic art on their walls and are willing to pay to do so, it's not going to go too much higher.

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It's not a supply/demand proposition. The point I was trying to make is that, from experience, many people simply fail to appropriately value art as a trade. They'll ask an artist to spend several hours creating a piece of art on their behalf and then expect to pay 10 bucks for it.

Musicians get the same raw deal.

Try getting a plumber or a carpenter to work for 10 or 15 hours on something and see what they charge. As a trade, Art or Music take no less training, practice and skill to execute well, but society has decided it doesn't need to value those skills despite obviously wanting to benefit from them.

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Originally posted by Devonin:
It's not a supply/demand proposition. The point I was trying to make is that, from experience, many people simply fail to appropriately value art as a trade. They'll ask an artist to spend several hours creating a piece of art on their behalf and then expect to pay 10 bucks for it.

Musicians get the same raw deal.

Try getting a plumber or a carpenter to work for 10 or 15 hours on something and see what they charge. As a trade, Art or Music take no less training, practice and skill to execute well, but society has decided it doesn't need to value those skills despite obviously wanting to benefit from them.

If you aren't a professional or semi-professional musician or artist, you probably don't get what I mean, but surely everybody knows "that art kid". Just ask them how many times they've been asked to do something for free, or for an amount that works out to worse than minimum wage. I bet the answer is "All the frigging time"

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Part of the problem with valuation of Art and Music versus deliverables produced by a Plumber or Carpenter lies in the fact that you can objectively state how long it takes to frame a basement, install a shower, change a faucet/valve or construct a chest of drawers, as examples. It could take 5 minutes or 5 months to compose a song, 1 hour or 1 year to create a painting/sculpture. It really depends on the creative process, which is much more enigmatic than the actual quantifiable physical labor that goes into a trade (Plumber, Carpenter, Mechanic, Welder etc.).

A Plumber or a Welder can leave a jobsite and not think about it whereas generally an Artist is always composing to some degree, as ideas percolate in the back of the mind. I am not saying that tradespeople do not consider their work. I am saying that the creative process cannot be turned off. Are we to pay them for every hour that the project has been with them or only for the time on which they worked on it?

I'm a financial analyst. People occasionally ask me to do their finances for them for less than minimum wage. I do this thing where I say "no."

The biggest expensive I have that most people don't understand is the cost of making something from wood, I have about 20k-25k in machinery and hand tools, then there's needing space to store and use the machines. And that's all out of pocket before anything is even cut, when things are being made I have to pay for new blades, sand paper, and electric.

So I have to charge 5-8 dollars per hour just to pay for the shop, then I need to pay myself which I charge a modest $20 per hour, then add in some % for profit that helps buy new tools.

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Originally posted by Schwingzilla:
Things aren't "worth" the hours someone spent on doing it. Things are worth what someone will pay for them.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
QFT. Art is cheap for many reasons, none of which is the number of hours it takes to create the work.

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Originally posted by Devonin:
It's your estimation that art is cheap generally? That actually proves the point rather than counters it. Most people seem to think that most commercially available art is -too- expensive.

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The desirable MTG art pieces can cost quite a lot. Chris Rahn listed a few of his recent pieces on eBay and got:

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Originally posted by Devonin:
It's your estimation that art is cheap generally? That actually proves the point rather than counters it. Most people seem to think that most commercially available art is -too- expensive.

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Originally posted by Timmyhill:
As a woodworker/furniture maker I know first hand people don't understand the cost of making things.

The biggest expensive I have that most people don't understand is the cost of making something from wood, I have about 20k-25k in machinery and hand tools, then there's needing space to store and use the machines. And that's all out of pocket before anything is even cut, when things are being made I have to pay for new blades, sand paper, and electric.

So I have to charge 5-8 dollars per hour just to pay for the shop, then I need to pay myself which I charge a modest $20 per hour, then add in some % for profit that helps buy new tools.

If anyone thinks $20 an hour is a lot just remember, as a creative person you really need to charge enough to help cover your living expenses between jobs. One month you might get 10-15 people who want something made then the next it might be 3-5 people and it all has to even out.

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$20 is not a lot by any means. Based on what you've said, I figure you're probably charging the customer somewhere around $40/hr or so. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. My company bills me out at $200/hr, and that's assuming I don't leave the building. If it's onsite work, it's $2k/day.

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Originally posted by Devonin:
Right, but if an artist estimates that a given commission will take them say, 10 hours of labour, what do you think is a fair hourly rate for that labour?

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I expect this to go for much more then the 900 its at right now. My guess would be closer to the 2000 range which is where much of there paintings go for. Add in Tim died 7 years ago and this is a nice collectors piece.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
If you want a plumber to replace a sink, you'll get pretty much the same end result no matter who you call.

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That's hilariously untrue. It's considered super unprofessional to ask what quotes competitors gave when asked for a quote for a trades job, and I've seen quotes that varied by several hundred percent from each other.

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Originally posted by Devonin:
That's hilariously untrue. It's considered super unprofessional to ask what quotes competitors gave when asked for a quote for a trades job, and I've seen quotes that varied by several hundred percent from each other.

I'm sure some of that has to do with overcharging on jobs you just happen to not want to do, and scaling your quote to how busy you are vs how busy you want to be, but the idea that a sink is a sink or a deck is a deck is actually quote untrue from my experience.

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