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Originally posted by ryanghall:
1) If you won't take that hit as a seller, why will you as a trader?

2) If the responsibility of risk is supposed to be on the part of the receiver, then why do MOTL rules state that it is the sender's responsibility to get the cards there?

It's pretty obvious why. The people in this thread have made condescending comments but have skirted around the main points I came up with.

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1) I don't. I rarely trade for this reason. If I do, I make it worth enough that I'm willing to pay for proper shipping

2) Because the seller is the only one that can purchase the proper shipping, but why should they purchase proper shipping if you're only wanting to give them $1?

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Originally posted by Louisboy:
What's your definition of "more"? Ebay you pay the fees and such so I have doubts to your claim since you seem to be on some kind of agenda to prove this point.

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More, because no one on here wants to pay Ebay prices for cards, they want to pay less. Sure there are Ebay fees that eat up that extra, but if you are either having to lose money on shipping, lose money on paypal fees or accept the risk of losing everything, you are easily making more selling on Ebay even after fees.

Last time I sent out to Canada it cost 6.55. It is another 13.65 to get tracking and insurance. When Canadians expect free shipping or 1.00 shipping, it is much easier to just sell on Ebay or to people in the US. Now that I answered your question, how about you answer mine (or should I say Junichi's since he first asked it). Why are you too cheap to pay for proper shipping?

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Originally posted by rats60:
More, because no one on here wants to pay Ebay prices for cards, they want to pay less. Sure there are Ebay fees that eat up that extra, but if you are either having to lose money on shipping, lose money on paypal fees or accept the risk of losing everything, you are easily making more selling on Ebay even after fees.

Last time I sent out to Canada it cost 6.55. It is another 13.65 to get tracking and insurance. When Canadians expect free shipping or 1.00 shipping, it is much easier to just sell on Ebay or to people in the US. Now that I answered your question, how about you answer mine (or should I say Junichi's since he first asked it). Why are you too cheap to pay for proper shipping?

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If I post on a member trade/ sales thread I would follow his/her rules. If someone posted on my sale/ trade thread I would want them to follow my rules.

When trading cards are the same as cash to me. On my trade list, I had point based list that had a lot of interesting cards and a point system that was fair for both sides. Most of my trades were $20 to $40 in cards and sending with tracking from Japan is an extra $5.00. I stated in my trade post that my point system was based on that I was sending via normal mail and if you want me to send with insurance add more cards to your side, All trades sent with normal airmail I had people coming to me wave their responsibility, For the most part it was easy to get people to do this,

I once did a $600 - $1,00 deal via registered mail that got lost. It was a buyer who did a few deals in the past and I was relaxed about the waiver,, didn't ask for one, He thought registered was the same as insured mail, it wasn't. He also wanted me to write a low value, which I did. He could of easily got MOTL to make me send again. I offered to reimburse half the cost in cards in a future a deal. From that point on I wanted full insurance or a waiver.

As a buyer YOU are asking them to cut corners and save YOU money on shipping, that is why YOU will be responsible for it every time.

I personally would never waive it either, unless I have done business with the person several times. But I simply don't order overseas unless it's large enough to warrant the high shipping costs and when I order domestically I always get tracking as it's only 2-3 bucks if available (unless it's from other websites as they are on the hook for it regardless thru PayPal if I don't get all the stuff I ordered).

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Originally posted by ryanghall:
First of all, junichi, too cheap? I'm sorry but I don't know what to tell you if you pay $15 tracking on $50 cards.

Others, I guess I don't understand two things:

1) If you won't take that hit as a seller, why will you as a trader?

2) If the responsibility of risk is supposed to be on the part of the receiver, then why do MOTL rules state that it is the sender's responsibility to get the cards there?

It's pretty obvious why. The people in this thread have made condescending comments but have skirted around the main points I came up with.

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Originally posted by junichi:
Why do sellers have to take the hit? They can just sell it to others who are willing to pay for proper shipping, such as buyers who are within US. If paying $15 shipping for a $50 purchase is too much, then either buy more at once, or go buy from a Canadian supplier where tracking is $7.

Complaining about someone unwilling to take on the risk and send you cards internationally using PWE is just plain stupid.

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Sellers don't have to take the hit, but the buyers, as rational beings, are going to go elsewhere. If the choice is:

$50 without waiver
$50 with waiver (+ risk)
$65 without waiver

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Originally posted by totalkaoz:

When trading, people have no issue sending first and don't ask for the waiver.

Isn't selling just a trade but with cash instead of cards?

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Yes. I wanted to buy something from a new member and they insisted on payment first. I asked them if they would send first in a trade and they said yes. I was kind of dumbfounded. The ref system should apply equally to trading and selling, it's really not different.

I've learned over the years not to trust everyone on MOTL.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Sellers don't have to take the hit, but the buyers, as rational beings, are going to go elsewhere. If the choice is:

$50 without waiver
$50 with waiver (+ risk)
$65 without waiver

The obvious pick is $50 without waiver.

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Yes, they can always go find someone who is not aware of the waiver requirement and buy it from them, and that is why we have all those PWE BTA case.

Besides, the same reason could be used on the seller as well. They can either:

1.) Sell it for $50 to someone who is willing to waive.
2.) Sell it for $50 + proper shipping cost without waiver.
3.) Sell it for $50 and take on the risk him/herself.

Honestly, I am not sure what you are trying to prove here, other than both buyers and sellers have the same bargaining power.

As I've said before, Ryan has a choice to not buy it from that particular seller, and find one who can offer tracking for a lower cost, such as a Canadian seller. Opening a thread and bitching about how he was mistreated because someone was trying to protect themselves is dumb, as he likes to put it.

On MOTL, we DO NOT encouraged people to send without tracking.

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(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

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Originally posted by junichi:
Yes, they can always go find someone who is not aware of the waiver requirement and buy it from them, and that is why we have all those PWE BTA case.

Besides, the same reason could be used on the seller as well. They can either:

1.) Sell it for $50 to someone who is willing to waive.
2.) Sell it for $50 + proper shipping cost without waiver.
3.) Sell it for $50 and take on the risk him/herself.

Honestly, I am not sure what you are trying to prove here, other than both buyers and sellers have the same bargaining power.

As I've said before, Ryan has a choice to not buy it from that particular seller, and find one who can offer tracking for a lower cost, such as a Canadian seller. Opening a thread and bitching about how he was mistreated because someone was trying to protect themselves is dumb, as he likes to put it.

On MOTL, we DO NOT encouraged people to send without tracking.

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Originally posted by ryanghall:
One big question has STILL gone unanswered in this thread.

Which sea is Canada over?

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Would you be satisfied with a global substitution of the word "International" for "Overseas"? When our American friends say overseas they obviously mean international, as technically Guam/Hawaii/USAFPO could be considered "overseas".

edit: Just wanted to state that I believe this is the most salient answer to the original issue.

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Originally posted by drex3739:
The reason why traders don't ask for the waiver is THEY are paying for their own shipping. THEY are cutting the corners to save on shipping, there for THEY are on the hook if you say you didn't get them and they can't prove it was delivered.

As a buyer YOU are asking them to cut corners and save YOU money on shipping, that is why YOU will be responsible for it every time.

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For instance, while 3oz in a package to Canada is like $9 something, that purchase now comes with tracking from what I understand.

$9 is still too much to pay on a $50 card for shipping.

Ryan G. I have dealt with you recently, and didn't ask a waiver because of your ref count. I'm fine with it, but also I think a buyer has a right to that.

Like, you have a right to decline too at the end of the day. The system works so long as everything is written clearly. I generally don't ask for waivers from guys I've dealt with a bunch, or guys that have a butt-ton of refs, but that's just me.

As Heresy has explained, it is totally possible for some prick to cash out and steal your stuff. I've been reverse ripped without the waiver before as well. It infuriates me.

I am against your notion to go against the waivers as I don't think that rule needs to exist. It's a case by case thing and each deal has unique circumstances. You have taken exception to it obviously, but there are plenty of copies of just about everything. I'm sure you have good relationships with some members who will forego the waiver.

I totally get that Canadians get hosed by the costs of shipping, and I try to offer reasonable options to counter that, but still. It's really tough because there's actually no way to ensure your safety.

As a Canadian with a very low ref count (I only really buy cards here when I really need them or when I can't find them in my LGS);

I've asked a seller a few weeks ago about the shipping options on a few cards totaling ~16$; It would've cost me 14$ for registered/6$ for a bubble mailer, which is ridiculous. Let's not forget that the CAD/US exchange rate is terrible for us these days, too. I end up buying singles at my LGS at the SCG price more often these days.

As to the waiver issue, it makes perfect sense to me with how things have happened lately. If the deal isn't worth it for you to pay for better shipping, then the deal is

1. either small enough you can risk agreeing to a waiver (if you're buying from someone with plenty of refs, recent activity, etc)

2. something you can get from another seller who is willing to eat the risk himself

3. something you can instead get from a local lgs b/c the premium you're paying is cheaper than shipping from elsewhere

etc etc. I don't see any reason to rant about people saying 'either pay better shipping, sign a waiver that I'm not responsible for the post office losing stuff, or buy from somewhere else'.

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Originally posted by marvinc023:
With the current exchange rate and the shipping I've started buying from local players unloading cards instead of MOTL. It works out to almost the same money and I'd rather give the money to a local seller that I know and play at the LGS' I frequent.

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Yup. As shipping costs go up, buying locally makes more and more sense. Unfortunately it makes selling stuff online a bigger pain.

If you're in the US and want to ship to Canada or overseas, you can actually do so with tracking. It'll cost $6.16 for 2 oz. but you can do it. Just gotta sign up for an account on USPS.com and make a shipping label. Pretty sure it includes a customs form so you avoid going to the PO, and it includes tracking. They accept paypal as payment.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
I dunno if this helps anybody, but I just figured it out. It seems like a lot of members were in the same boat as me here though, so maybe it is useful.

If you're in the US and want to ship to Canada or overseas, you can actually do so with tracking. It'll cost $6.16 for 2 oz. but you can do it. Just gotta sign up for an account on USPS.com and make a shipping label. Pretty sure it includes a customs form so you avoid going to the PO, and it includes tracking. They accept paypal as payment.

Price is kinda high, but it's less than half of a Registered package, and could help alleviate some of these overseas shipping issues, along with the need for a waiver all together.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
I dunno if this helps anybody, but I just figured it out. It seems like a lot of members were in the same boat as me here though, so maybe it is useful.

If you're in the US and want to ship to Canada or overseas, you can actually do so with tracking. It'll cost $6.16 for 2 oz. but you can do it. Just gotta sign up for an account on USPS.com and make a shipping label. Pretty sure it includes a customs form so you avoid going to the PO, and it includes tracking. They accept paypal as payment.

Price is kinda high, but it's less than half of a Registered package, and could help alleviate some of these overseas shipping issues, along with the need for a waiver all together.

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That sounds like standard fare for a bubble mailer going internationally. The customs number works as tracking all the way to its destination if it's going to Canada. If it's going elsewhere, the tracking stops at whatever point it leaves the US.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

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Originally posted by chaos021:
That sounds like standard fare for a bubble mailer going internationally. The customs number works as tracking all the way to its destination if it's going to Canada. If it's going elsewhere, the tracking stops at whatever point it leaves the US.

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This gives you something to suffice for the seller's end of the "responsibility" according to our rules here. If you agree with the buyer that a customs numbers is good enough, then yeah sure, but as far as I understand the rules it does not suffice as "Delivered".

Regardless, the cost is actually cheaper than just going to the post office and putting postage on it for a 2 oz. parcel to Canada.

In the past, when the community was smaller, it was easier to make trades with people and not be afraid that it was going to be a scam, there wasn't as much money involved on most cards. As the prices of cards have increased and at the same time become even more liquid you will start to get more shady individuals that just want to make easy money. People report mail being opened and being stolen because it is Magic cards (post on MTGS, haven't seen any here)

If the market cools and trackable shipping gets cheaper, it would be more likely people would be more willing to send internationally, but now it is really worth it to the seller to wait for an in country buyer and sell with cheap tracking or ask the international customer to bear the risk with them.

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Originally posted by totalkaoz:
I agree with ryanghall here and I would NEVER waive responsibility. I would go as far to ask members under 100 refs to send me cards first and then pay for them afterwards. People used to be willing to do this with no issue but nowadays, it seems like even members with under 10 refs want you to pay paypal gift and ask to waive responsibility.

When trading, people have no issue sending first and don't ask for the waiver.

Isn't selling just a trade but with cash instead of cards?

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And as for trading, I would only trade internationally if it was worth shipping or was for a card I really wanted and had been looking for for awhile. I would also ask that it be shipped in a bubble mailer with a Customs form so that I have some reassurance it was actually sent.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Ryang - Yes, it's annoying. That's why I basically never buy or sell on this website anymore. It's cheaper to go to ebay, where shipping doesn't have $15 tacked on to it.

I've learned from experience that you won't get any sympathy here, full stop. Rather you'll get a bunch of condescending answers about how you totally should spend $15 to mail $50 of cards. Because you're a greedy greedster if you don't want to accept risk.

The sellers don't realize that risk is valuable. It is, in fact, worth $15 or whatever they ask. But they also sell their cards at the ebay value, where sellers don't have to take on any risk. So basically their cards are much more expensive.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
I dunno if this helps anybody, but I just figured it out. It seems like a lot of members were in the same boat as me here though, so maybe it is useful.

If you're in the US and want to ship to Canada or overseas, you can actually do so with tracking. It'll cost $6.16 for 2 oz. but you can do it. Just gotta sign up for an account on USPS.com and make a shipping label. Pretty sure it includes a customs form so you avoid going to the PO, and it includes tracking. They accept paypal as payment.

Price is kinda high, but it's less than half of a Registered package, and could help alleviate some of these overseas shipping issues, along with the need for a waiver all together.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
This gives you something to suffice for the seller's end of the "responsibility" according to our rules here. If you agree with the buyer that a customs numbers is good enough, then yeah sure, but as far as I understand the rules it does not suffice as "Delivered".

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It doesn't count, and it shouldn't IMO. It's not extremely consistent in when they update or if they do it at all. I mean this strictly in regards to international mail between the US and Canada. That doesn't get into the issues with looking at other international mail.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon