Click Here!
         

Thread Closed  Topic Closed
  Magic Online Trading League Bulletin Board
  Articles
  Across the Board, June 15: A Bit of Repect, Eh?

Post New Topic  
profile | register | preferences | faq | rules | memberlist | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!   next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Across the Board, June 15: A Bit of Repect, Eh?
iakae
Banned
posted June 15, 2000 06:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iakae Click Here to Email iakae Send a private message to iakae Click to send iakae an Instant MessageVisit iakae's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I can’t believe that I actually have to do this, but it seems to me that someone has to bring up the subject. First off, I’d like to thank TemptingElf and SerraAngel, who have acted as consultants for today’s Across the Board (although I doubt that Serra actually knows that her input helped tremendously with this). All right, gentleman, time to dive into the subject of female Magic players. That’s not all that I’m going to be ranting about, uh, I mean discussing maturely today, but it’s certainly the main topic.

How many times has this question been asked: Where are all the female Magic players? Trust me, gents; they’re out there, and there are more than you think. However, the average male Magic player doesn’t seem to be equipped mentally to accept that fact when he is actually confronted with one. That’s because, as a group, we male Magic players are a bit on the immature side. Yes, I'm including myself in there as well, because I can be a raving lunatic at times. However, being intimately involved (and no, I don’t mean that statement in a dirty way) with a female Magic player for almost a decade now has given me a keen insight into the female Magic player psyche that most guys never get the chance to examine. Harken, my friends, to my tale.

First off, as an example of what NOT to do, take a look at a certain post in MOTL’s General Discussion forum entitled “Magic babes”. Hell, just the subject is a step in the wrong direction. Do you really think that a woman likes to be called a “babe” like that? Sure, there are certain times when calling a woman a babe is appropriate, most of the time when said as a half-joke, but used in that context it’s just insulting. It’s all about common sense people, and common sense dictates that you not say something that stupid. Once you find that post, I encourage you to take a look at some of the replies to it, then come back here and tell me that quite a few of the “gentlemen” aren’t treating women like pieces of meat. I believe that my dear TemptingElf put it best when she said that a lot of the guys on MOTL are talking but not actually saying anything.

Please, don’t argue with that by saying that not every guy on MOTL acts like that. I’m well aware that the majority of the male players that frequent the site are true gentlemen (in the case of how they treat women, anyway). I’m talking about that minority that seems to think (or not think, as the case may be) that they can say just about anything without insulting a lady. It may seem a bit archaic, maybe even a shade of medieval, but I believe that a woman should be treated with the greatest courtesy (opening doors for her, pulling out her chair, etc.), and topics like the one mentioned about are NOT showing that courtesy. I may not be the most eloquent guy out there, but that’s the way I feel.

Let’s face it, gents: We’ve got no idea how the female mind works. Throughout time, men have been absolutely baffled by the workings of the female mind, and whether we like it or not, we’re not going to get an answer any time soon. I don’t need to explain this to those of us that have been in long term relationships (Neo Darkside, I’m sure that you of all people get what I’m saying), but I’m going to speak in nice slow sentences for those members of the male MOTL population that can’t seem to catch a break with the ladies. If you want to be respected by a member of the opposite sex, guys, you’re going to have to use some common sense. That’s leads me into my next series of points.

Don’t treat female Magic players as outcasts. Just because they’re not as common as male players doesn’t mean that they are spectacles for us guys to observe. It doesn’t work that way. I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve snuck a few glances at a few women Magic players in my time, which is to be expected because I’m only human, but I have never sat there with a dumbfound look on my face and thought the equivalent of “Duh…pretty…”. What’s that equivalent to? Any thought or comment that makes mention of body parts, lewd actions to perform, and anything else that is just disrespectful. I don’t expect every male Magic player to act that way, as everyone’s system of beliefs is different, but at least you can show an outward respect for women players. Don’t check them out, don’t stare at their chests during matches, and for the love of God don’t make sexual innuendoes.

On the flip side of the coin, though….

Ladies, please, be patient with us guys. We can’t predict what you’re thinking. Talk slowly and use small words, because frankly you’re enigmas to us. Don’t take things personally if we slip up and say something that you might see as offensive. Those of us that actually respect women will try to use some common sense in our dealings with those of your sex, but we’re going to screw up. This is true in all of life, not just Magic. Try not to be too sensitive about that sort of thing, although there’s definitely a line that shouldn’t be crossed.

And Kworb, I don’t want to hear it. ANY of it. Do us all a favor and just stay away from this Across the Board. There will be plenty of other issues for you to comment on at a future date.

 
cradleguard
Member
posted June 15, 2000 07:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for cradleguard Click Here to Email cradleguard Send a private message to cradleguard Click to send cradleguard an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Praises to you Iakae for your sensible solution to a common problem.

__________________
Commander cradleguard
Cobalt Team
MOTL Moderator
cradleguard@magictraders.com

"I see you Baby, shakin' dat ...!"
- Cradleguard speaking to Conan

 
Goblin_Snowman
Member
posted June 15, 2000 07:46 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Goblin_Snowman Click Here to Email Goblin_Snowman Send a private message to Goblin_Snowman Click to send Goblin_Snowman an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thank you iakae for having the writing capability that sums it up all so appropriately. Article well written especially the we will never understand women aspect. My fiance stills makes me scratch my head and that is just from ordering dinner lol.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Goblin_Snowman on June 15, 2000]
 
Ashlie
Unregistered
posted June 15, 2000 07:53 PM   Click to send Ashlie an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thanks, iakae, for bringing up the subject which scares women away from Magic. For this purpose, I will list some simple steps to help men/boys treat women properly.

1. Bathe frequently. All too often, male gamers do not understand the importance of good hygeine. This includes showering, shaving, using deodorant, and brushing your teeth.

2. Do not refer to us as "babes" or use other condescending terms.

3. Do not cuss or scream when we beat you. If you lose, that does not mean we are whores, sluts, *****es, or *insert derogatory female slang word here*. Just becuase we're of the "lesser" sex, doesn't mean we suck at Magic. Lose gracefully.

4. Do not ogle us. If you haven't seen a woman before, you really need to get out more often. This includes pointing, and whispering to friends.

Basically, we just ask to be treated with respect. I personally don't want anyone to jump up and grab the door for me, or pull my chair out or anything else. I just want to go to a tournament and not be stared at like I'm an alien just landed from another planet.

And ladies, be patient. They eventually grow out of it. I got married because of a Magic dork.

__________________
Ashlie

"Have you ever noticed that people who see things are always crazy?" Ving Rhames to Nick Cage in Bringing Out the Dead

ashlie@davidbowie.com

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Ashlie on June 15, 2000]

 
Zadok001
Member
posted June 15, 2000 08:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zadok001 Click Here to Email Zadok001 Send a private message to Zadok001 Click to send Zadok001 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
First of all, a minor thing for Ashlie, your point 4. The last time I saw a group of male players doing that, they had good reason; the female in question was playing a rather unique deck that was doing suprisingly well. Therefore, I would ask that you not immedietely assume such attention is generated purely due to the sex of a player, there are other reasons.

On the topic of this Across the Board in general, I simply would like to add my voice to those of the others who have already expressed their gratitude to iakae for writing this. Excellent work.

Finally, a personal note. I am of a rare breed, a male feminist (no, I am not gay, that's simply a political statement). Having female players around is absolutely no different from having a male player around. Treat them identically. The only difference is in your head.

"Return friendly fire."

__________________
--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic
CPA Founder
"We have more sprouts than they have hands."
http://www.casualplayers.org/

 
SerraAngel
Member
posted June 15, 2000 08:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for SerraAngel Click Here to Email SerraAngel Send a private message to SerraAngel Click to send SerraAngel an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm glad I could be a help to you in this article, Iakae. This topic really needed to be addressed. All of your NOT to do suggestions were very good. Calling a woman a "babe" or a "chick" is offensive unless it's used in the right context- which is not when you're playing a total stranger. Women just want to be treated courteously. You don't need to go out of your way for us, but it helps I don't mean to sound so bitter about the way men mistreat women at Magic events, but I believe it's justified because when you go to play a game that's supposed to be fun and you get burned while you're there it really sucks. I hope article will help male memebers of MOTL figure out the enigmatic female Magic playing population

Also, in responce to what Ashlie said, hygine is so fital. I've been to tournys where I've wished for a CoP: BO.

__________________
I feel just like a local god when I'm with the boys

Have/Want Forum Moderator

 
Imagenyuss
Member
posted June 15, 2000 09:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Imagenyuss Click Here to Email Imagenyuss Send a private message to Imagenyuss Click to send Imagenyuss an Instant MessageVisit Imagenyuss's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thank you for taking your time to adress that, yes I did respond to Kworb's post but look at what i wrote before you judge me. (not you would) I too have noticed that this subject, at times, has gotten out of hand. So once again thank you.

__________________
shut up because Im a genyuss.

 
Fooath
Member
posted June 15, 2000 09:48 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Fooath Click Here to Email Fooath Send a private message to Fooath Click to send Fooath an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hell, being a guy I have on many occasions wished for CoP: BO. These people must have some idea they smell like crap.

Oh, and in these circumstances being truthful is not a very bright thing. Telling someone they smell like feces is not a very nice thing to do, but sometimes it must be done. And take it from me, people dont like being told, it leads to violence...

 
Orinn
Member
posted June 15, 2000 10:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Orinn Click Here to Email Orinn Send a private message to Orinn Click to send Orinn an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm probably going to wind up defending this statement, but one of the reasons there is sexism in the game is the disproportionate number of adolescent males. I'm not saying every male between 13 and 18 is totally immature, but they are usually young, immature, and will speak out without thinking first. I was the same way when I was young, and i will admit it. Boys grow up. Hopefully, this type of behavior can be controlled while at MOTL, and while playing in general.

__________________
This is my signature.

 
squizz
Member
posted June 15, 2000 11:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for squizz Click Here to Email squizz Send a private message to squizz Click to send squizz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Great article Iakae! If more male magic players treated female magic players with the respect they deserve, we might see a lot more of them.

An interesting note: I recently directed a friend of mine (a female magic player) to your article "Disgusted at Judging". She lives in an area where there are almost as many female players as males and she has never seen any female player being harrassed by a member of the opposite sex, nor has she experienced this problem herself. Go figure.

 
Superbeast
Member
posted June 16, 2000 01:07 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Superbeast Click Here to Email Superbeast Send a private message to Superbeast Click to send Superbeast an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Personally I have never viewed such actions. My girlfriend plays, and has always been treated with respect, if not extra respect. Course it may not hurt that she is by my side, and though I am 25, I would have no problems using myself as an intimidation factor...or an intervening member.

I will say this, people at FNM treat her real well, often helping her by pointing out things she would miss...like blocking, then tapping to do something. She appreciates it, and so do I as it makes her better competition for me. I guess I have to say Kudos to the people in my area, even though they are young, they show some maturity.

I would like to point out, that to me the word "babe" does not seem out of line. Just as if a woman called me "hun" or "honey". However, I do use it rarely if ever with people I don't know, and also more as a name, then a description. I do choose appropriate times to use it, and never has a woman seemed offended by it. Just my 2 pennies worth.

 
Trinistand
Banned
posted June 16, 2000 04:32 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trinistand Click Here to Email Trinistand Send a private message to Trinistand Click to send Trinistand an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hmm...seems maybe I should add my input into this forum. Well, I agree that us magic players tend to be on the immature side once in a while ("DIE DIE DIE!!! I BEAT YOU SO BAD, WHAAHHAHAHAHAHA! etc.) Believe me, it's happened to me before (tourney finals). But as to female magic players, there ARE a lot of us guys that have the respect needed to treat women properly. But most of the time, the guys treat the ladies just like they would a fellow magic player.

Ah...now to address what some of the others wrote. COP: BO would be such a broken card it's not funny. But I haven't had much problem with the guys around where I am. Also, I do think it's offensive to other ladies when guys call them "babes" or "chicks". Face it guys, calling a complete stranger a "babe" or a "chick" doesn't cut it. Try to address them by their names.

Hmm...well, that's about it.

__________________
"One man alone cannot forge a nation from a world of chaos."
-Commander Trinistand
of the GAB Starlight Blue Team

 
muddlethorpe
Member
posted June 16, 2000 07:26 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for muddlethorpe Click Here to Email muddlethorpe Send a private message to muddlethorpe Click to send muddlethorpe an Instant MessageVisit muddlethorpe's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
i completely agree with you, female deserve to be treated as equals, not spectals, and if you are beat, there is no reason to feel bad you were beat by a lady, as im sure most "gentlemen" do, or make any unnecessary comments.

but also, if the ladies want to be treated as equals, some of them dont show it. one female who played my brother in a tourney did everything but take her top off to distract him( such as lifting her breasts, leaning over in his face to "see cards on his side"[note: she was wearing a very revealing shirt], licking her finger in a quite unappropriate way, and other things as well. and the next time we saw her, she had her legs up on a table applying lotion, FOR ABOUT 10 MINUTES!!! i mean come on. im not saying all players act like this, in reality very few do, but those females like the one above dont help them achieve magic equality.



[Edited 1 times, lastly by muddlethorpe on June 16, 2000]

 
Jigglypuff62166
Banned
posted June 16, 2000 07:46 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Jigglypuff62166 Click Here to Email Jigglypuff62166 Send a private message to Jigglypuff62166 Click to send Jigglypuff62166 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It seems to me that Iakae is addressing this issue quite a bit. Ok twice, but that's not the point. The point is that...Well, there is no point, but that's not the point. Ya see, Iakae, the kids listen to the rap music these days, which rots the brains! With the hippin' and the hoppin', and the pippin' and the poppin', so they don't know what the Jazz is all about! Ya see, Jazz is kinda like a Jell-O pudding pop. No, no. It's more like Kodak film. Wait! No, no. It's more like the new Coke, it'll be around forever *Hehehe.
 
wayne
Member
posted June 16, 2000 07:56 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for wayne Click Here to Email wayne Send a private message to wayne Click to send wayne an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View wayne's Have/Want ListView wayne's Have/Want List
Well, I've yet to encounter a female Magic player in Singapore. When other Magic players do bring their girlfriend/wife to the trading place, some Magic players will then huddle together and crack a lewd joke or two. Their ogling(if it's a pretty female) sometimes causes the female to shift around uncomfortably. Perhaps this is why there're either very little or no female Magic players in Singapore. Also, someone should create a CoP: BO as the local trading area has no air-con and the humidity here is horrible.
 
Archreaper
Member
posted June 16, 2000 08:02 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Archreaper Click Here to Email Archreaper Send a private message to Archreaper Click to send Archreaper an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Nice article, Iakae. I agree with you on every point. Me being one who dosen't get enough time to play Magic as I used to, I either play against my friends (all guys), or at a booster draft (I have yet to see a woman there too). I do have the fullest respect for anyone who plays Magic. God knows it's hard enough to read that little rule book I got in my 5th Edition starter.
 
Deranged Dad
Member
posted June 16, 2000 08:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Deranged Dad Click Here to Email Deranged Dad Click to send Deranged Dad an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It was a nice article! I fully support women in Magic. Wittness the fact that I play Magic with my daughter all of the time.
In further support of women in Magic, please check out my back columns at magiccampus.com, where you will find many interviews with top women players! In a couple of weeks, I'll also have an interview with the winner of the women's invitational.

I'm the Deranged Dad columnist at magiccampus.com

Thanks for writing such a nice and timely article and keep up your fine work...

 
djinn38
Member
posted June 16, 2000 11:55 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for djinn38 Click Here to Email djinn38 Click to send djinn38 an Instant MessageVisit djinn38's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I fully agree with your topic! I am pretty amazed to see a female player every now and then, but I don't call them babes or chicks or anything stupid like that... At one Point, which was the best point for my magic playing career, My Father, My father's Female Roomate, My father's Male Roomate, And My sister all played magic! (As did I of course ) We all played every weekend that I was at my father's house from around lunch until around dinner, which was like the best thing I have ever done with my family members!) And About the "female mind" thing, I think I know one thing! they are gonna like you a whole lot less if you act like they are the only girl player on earth! LOL!
NE ways..... Just wanted to say that this subject is talked about between my IRL friends and that we try to make them feel as welcome as possible, and eveyone who doesn't make them feel comfortable about it, should try it! L8z!

__________________
I can't remember, I don't understand ,
Is it malice that makes you this way?
Carry it with you till' someone forgives you,
I laugh cuz' there's nothing to say,
You can't begin to consider the
Palable hate in the air when your here,
none of us wonder what weather your under
your making it perfectly clear.
870621345

 
*Tedman*
Member
posted June 16, 2000 06:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for *Tedman* Click Here to Email *Tedman* Send a private message to *Tedman* Click to send *Tedman* an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Tim, I must say, a rather well-written article, but most of those points have already been made in several General Discussion topics (namely "Magic Babes" and "The Man Thing"). Although this is a fairly important topic, I personally am sick of it and would be glad to see it go away.

__________________
Shrooms: You fool! Shrooms can't talk!
Me: But you're talking to me now!
Shrooms: No we aren't.

My refs: classic.magictraders.com/reflists/*Tedman*.html

ICQ me @ 75688897

 
iakae
Banned
posted June 16, 2000 07:03 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iakae Click Here to Email iakae Send a private message to iakae Click to send iakae an Instant MessageVisit iakae's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
That's what I'm attempting to do, Ted. If everything dealing with this is condensed into a single post, that organizes things a bit. By establishing at least some semblance of a guideline, it should also eliminate a large amount of the comments that actually start the arguments in the first place.
 
Fooath
Member
posted June 17, 2000 09:49 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Fooath Click Here to Email Fooath Send a private message to Fooath Click to send Fooath an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
lol. Your a funny little man.

Are you canadian?

 
swoop ryder
Unregistered
posted June 17, 2000 10:04 PM   Click to send swoop ryder an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I think that Kworb has a very valid point. In real life none of this would happen. I think it has to do with the internet providing so much anonminity. Basically MOTL has turned into a place for us guys to talk about women the way you can always observe groups of girls gossiping about guys.
It kind of reminds me of 900 numbers that you can call to get some sexy voice to talk to you. On the internet you don't need to fear rejection so by talking about "chicks" it all seems harmless. And as we can see here, thanks to the women users, we know what they expect from us guys in the real world. We'll either take their advice or get turned down.
Let's all knock off this "white knight" attitude because we don't really know what our fellow users are really thinking.
 
* Serenity *
Unregistered
posted June 18, 2000 02:04 AM   Click to send * Serenity * an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Dear Iakae,

I am apparently new and am probably responding to a possibly old article,

but I must praise you for giving thought to us females in the magic genre.

Although I think we females don't deserve so much defense on another person's part.

I must say that during my period of playing magic, I have had little complications with males. There are times that they do offend me, but I am not hyper-sensitive to things such as that and I usually simply shrug it off.

As for being called a "babe" or a "hottie" (shrugs at Evangelion's post) - like most women I do take offense in it, but usually if it is a person I know I won't take it so harshly. But I do advise all males out there to please be considerate of our feelings!

If any of you saw that particular post by Evangelion - which i couldn't respond to <was it restricted?> - I took little to no offense from it because i know the writer in real life and I know that he is just joking around with me.

but to posts like the "Magic card babes" or something of that nature - I feel slightly less-important and in a way degraded because of it since it is the opinion of a stranger from somewhere to look upon females as something to drool over all day.


But I see it flattering that at least there are some people out there with a clear <or near clear> understanding of a women's thoughts towards men.

I thank you once more for the delightful article iakae,

hopefully I will have the privilege to talk to you again soon.

__________________
Ally
* Serenity *

I knew when looking back on the times we cried, I would laugh,
but I never thought when looking back on the times we laughed, I would cry.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by * Serenity * on June 18, 2000]

 
mishra400
Member
posted June 25, 2000 08:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mishra400 Click Here to Email mishra400 Send a private message to mishra400 Click to send mishra400 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
good job man, you got this idea well covered.
at the nemisis prerealease tournament, before it started, i met a girl from my home town(the tournament was in another city)and we kept in touch at the tournament. she ended up in an 8 way tye for first place. i never saw her again, and she was the only girl i ever knew who played magic.and i just want to say this: treat them like a normal player.

__________________
"consider this the overture to my symphony.a culling is at hand human, a culling.listen to the screams of your extinction"-cabal,nod A.I.

 

All times are PDT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Open Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic | Make Feature Article
Post New Topic  
Hop to:

Contact Us | MOTL Home Page | Privacy Statement & TOS

© 1996-2012 Magic Online Trading League

Powered by Infopop © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47e