Author
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Topic: New School VS. Old School, How can they compete?
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Atreides Member
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posted June 28, 2000 07:25 AM
Hello again, all. I've been writing up some articles on some problems Magic players can expect to see. Today my focus is on new players who are just outmatched by out of print cards.I happen to be somewhere between old and new school in Magic. I started when the Dark, which is widely considered the last "Old School" set had just been phased out in favor of Fallen Empires. There is no dispute that "old school" cards are a lot more powerful than many of their "new school" counterparts. We will never see another card as mighty as the Maze of Ith, or as useful as dual lands. Even the commons back then were more powerful. (More on that later) New players have only limited access to old school cards, since they're mostly out of print. Good, out-of-print rares are all being hoarded by their owners, so trading is limited. Bringing up Mazes of Ith aain, trading on MOTL, it took me NEARLY 2 YEARS to acquire 4. New players have the Type 2 environment to play in, but the environment is restricting. In Type 1 you can see any number of things that are impossible in Type 2. The whole game is changed. How can new school Magic players compete in the much better Type 1? THE BLATANTLY OBVIOUS: Get old cards. Sure, but how? 1- MOTL. It may take a while, but it is an outlet for OOP rares, and OOP commons and uncommons can be found in stacks. 2- Frequent LARGE cardstores. My area (Montreal suburbs) don't house large cardstores. To get to one I'd have to drag myself downtown and since my parents won't give me lifts for anything Magic-related, it's not good for me. For all the rest of you, though: Large cardstores have large stocks, including large boxes stuffed with commons and uncommons. A great many out-of-print. Large cardstores also have OOP rares in their display cases. A person you all may want to speak to about cardstores is Adam Sutherland, whose MOTL tag is "argoth" though I haven't heard from him in a good long while. He was working in a large cardstore that was at a time liquidating several Berserks. He can probably give you very good information on tracking down OOP rares, and possibly cards in trade as well. His e-mail address is: palidor@pacificcoast.net 3- Attend tournaments, Pre-Releases, and Card shows. At these events, many a player knows there are going to be players looking for OOP rares, and you'd be amazed at what you see in those binders. 4- As a last resort, you can always try mail order.
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Yawgmoth's Lackey Member
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posted June 29, 2000 05:34 PM
I started playing during ice age and I have just as many old(alpha-dark) as I do Type 2. All from MOTL basically, MOTL is the place to trade for anything,just have to have a will and a way __________________ cmoore@visi.net
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Master Member
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posted June 29, 2000 05:39 PM
you newbies ( 95 and up) have it good, all your combo cards your foils, bah, back in my day, the best combo decks that you would see were the enchantress/wombat decks and the channel fireball decks. none of this newfangled necro crap. all we had was beat down and card drawing. thats it. no remove this, remove that. it was beat or be beaten. why one of the best decks was the white weenie deck. and i can remember when moat was 10 bucks. __________________ •·.÷.·•- ----•[ im tha masta]•---- -•·.÷.·• To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target im me at: Mr Jingle Jangle
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Greven_volrath_killer Member
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posted July 02, 2000 02:59 PM
I get that problem at school, there are people that have cards from Unlimited, Revised, and other old stuff like that. They beat everyone and most of the decks I make can barely touch them unless they get mana-screwed. I make all of my decks Type II, and there are a couple of us around here that do, but(probably because we have no tournies, for now) most people find a good card and put it in. I used to be like that, but now (partly because of MOTL) I think Type II constantly. Master, I believe your post was a bit abrasive, if you were serious.__________________ Do ya bury me when I'm gone Do ya teach me while I'm here Just as soon as I'm alone Then it's time I disappear ~Metallica "I Disappear"
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Notherin Member
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posted July 02, 2000 07:09 PM
Well, well, well, it seems like my good real life friend here believes that oldschool can dominate new school without a hitch. Well, the main reason for this is the fact that new school players have problems making decks that don't revolve around combos or a killer card. Thats why they get blown away.I have rarely used old school cards and it hasn't hurt my decks one bit. The best way to make a deck is to invent one. It is easy to copy a deck and then change it, but it is much more difficult to make a one-of-a-kind deck. That is what i try to do. And it works very well if i do say so myself. So it really isn't the cards that matter, it is the players using them.
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Atreides Member
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posted July 02, 2000 09:04 PM
Well, my real-life friend Notherin has finally decided to join up here. Good for you.I'm not flagrantly suggesting that old cards will dominate new cards flat out. It all depends on a number of factors like player intelligence and so on. But, old cards are cards that new players may well never see, and are damn good. If Dark Ritual doesn't get re-printed in the next basic set, new players are screwed for speedy black decks, for example. I happen to partially agree with your last statement: Sure, you're a success with new-school. So am I. Sure a lot of people copy old school decks when they have old school cards. BUT the same will happen regardless because you'll get idiots who just go to thedojo.com to get type 2 decks and copy them out entirely. What I'm saying, basically is that there is a huge disproportion of good vs. crap cards between old and new school. As Noth and I examined, among new school sets Exodus has the best good-crap ratio: 45% I believe old school can hit MUCH higher ratios.
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KIP_NZ Member
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posted July 08, 2000 01:17 AM
Hi I come in the middle of this as I played in Beta ( have full P9 still) and gave up at the tempest pre-release and started playing again just b4 Nemsis and I hardly know any cards from the sets in between. I don't agree that you need the big T1 stuff to play cards and you also don't need the 4 Morphlings and 4 Masticores. At the end of the day you and I play the game for one reason to have fun. I have to say i carry a P9 deck around with me and 9 out of 10 times i don't play with it as I just get picked on when I go first turn Mox, Mox Lotus Morphling and a land just cause I can. So the deck doesn't get alot of play, I normaly end up playing my T2 Draw go most of the time, remember T1 only get a good start about 1 in 4 and you can pick on them the other 3 times. Just some rambling Adrian
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Orinn Member
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posted July 08, 2000 11:31 PM
I started playing when the Dark came out, and I don't play too much of the older cards, mainly because I play casual games with my friends. I CAN build decks that just wipe out the newer decks, but I mostly play T2 or extended to keep things nice. It wouldn't be any fun to drop duals and Candleabra,Archaeologist, Fork, whatever in every deck. In tournaments, I go for advantage. in casual play, I mostly experiment with new, original decks that have a low- to medium- win percentage. When they win, I know it's because the deck is good, not because it's worth $200 and has a lot of cards my opponents will NEVER own.__________________ We see only in part, and thus is the mirror of prophecy darkened.
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Magic1264 Member
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posted July 23, 2000 11:59 AM
EXCUSE ME!!!! Old school beating new school... HA!!! That is the biggest joke i have ever heard. People at my school that have been playing since beta and so on, they have trouble competing with new school. Me and my friends started playing with them, and they straight out beat us down. So we started building decks to screw around with combo decks. It was tough, but the best way to screw combo decks it through the new blue. The new alternative play cost spells are my besssst friends. I especially win with my blue/black avatar control deck. They got nothing to defend an avatar of woe coming out 2nd turn. Then i have spells such as foil, force of will, daze, thwart, and misdirection to protect against it. I guess it is how you use new school and your intelligence level.
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Davidian Member
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posted July 25, 2000 02:40 PM
I am not going to pass judgement on which is better... new school or old school. The truth of the matter is that both schools have their strong points. And basically it comes down to the fact that if you build a deck with the right cards in mind you are going to win. Old School may have broken cards like P9 but new school has Yawgmoth's Will, Stroke of Genius, Tradewind Rider, Abeyance, etc. Make a deck out of both and you will win hands down. Just look at this Type 1 LD deck: Note: OS - Old School, NS- New School 5C Land Destruction 1x Black Vise OS 1x Gorilla Shaman NS 1x Yawgmoths Will NS 1x Serra Angel OS 2x Swords to plowshares 2x Disenchants 1x Regrowth OS 3x Wall of Blossoms NS 3x Fireball 1x Braingeyser OS (but NS has stroke so...) 3x Tradewind Riders NS 1x Soul Feast NS 1x Demonic Tutor OS 4x Stone Rains 3x Avalanche Riders NS 4x Pillage NS 4x Sinkhole OS 1x Ice Storm OS 2x Rain of Tears NS All OS: 1x Sol Ring 1x Mox Diamond (except this one - NS) 1x Mox Sapphire 1x Mox Jet 1x Mox Pearl 1x Mox Ruby 1x Mox Emerald 1x Black Lotus 2x Volcanic Island OS 2x Reflecting Pools NS 2x Bayou OS 1x Savannah OS 2x Badlands OS 3x Wastelands NS 2x Plateau OS Outside of the P9 it is about even...11 OS, 10 NS (the numbers switch when the Braingeyser gets changed for Stroke)... So my point is, why bicker about which school is better when clearly its the card not the school that dominates. __________________ "It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive."
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Davidian on July 25, 2000]
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axel Gunarson Member
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posted July 26, 2000 12:20 PM
hey Atreides i live in montreal i could get you out of prints and trade em to you if you would like to! just let me know at assmaster27@hotmail.com btw old school can be powerfull but is harder to play and win just my thoughts seeya__________________ NoFX is the best band in the world if your not listening to punk then your not listening to music at all
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zabagabe Member
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posted August 15, 2000 04:26 PM
Access to good OOP cards also varies depending on where you live, in a broad, geographic sense. I live in the Northwest, (Oregon/Washington), where Magic started, and as a result we've got a /lot/ of the older stuff. You'd be surprised how common it is to get it. And because there's such availability, people are more likely to trade them, since they know they can get them back. Anyone else living here experienced this? As to old school being better than new school, OS has better cards for their cost, but NS has potentially more powerful cards. Sure, a Black Lotus is awesome, but it by itself doesn't do much. Some of the NS stuff I read about (I don't play anymore, and haven't for two years, although I'm debating getting back into it) is just insane. I can't believe it ever got by R&D. :P-David
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Ertai4 Member
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posted August 17, 2000 08:06 PM
Well both "New AND Old School" have advantages and disadvantages as Davidian said. My personal opinion is that Old School will win most of the time but it all depends on the person who is playing with the cards. I also STRONGLY agree that decks don't need to be packed with rares to be really good. Infact I try to keep rares to a minimum in most of my decks. This is the reason I think "Old School" is better since it has powerful commons and uncommons. As for "New School" it has better combo cards, etc. __________________ "If "if's" and "buts" were candy and presents we would all have a very merry Christmas" Ertai4's Refs Ertai4's H/W-Check this out!!
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phoenix Member
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posted August 19, 2000 08:00 PM
Well I would have agreed with Atredian about 3-4 years ago.....the next couple of years starting with fallen empires after all the big sets"old school" came out were a lot weaker than there ancestor sets. But you've gotta remember to that this was a time that Magic was really starting to lose popularity. Also i'm notsaying that sets like alliances/fallen empires/ visions etc. were bad but they just couldn't compete in standardized play! It was divided in casual. You either play T1or the current block and if the 2 worlds collided then the new set gets snuffed out. Not true any longer. It began with the Urza's block when Magic really started up again and there was a set full of powerhous broken cards!! every set since Saga keeps adding cards that would never have left the playtest trials during the rath cycle and earlier (cept "old school") Now you can make a great deck combining the best of both generations to create some really interesting and powerful decks!! It seems that WotC is reverting back to its good ol days when gold cards were GOOD and the set was full of great cards that aer listed as commons in newer sets but would definetly be uncommons and some even rares during the middle ages if you will. So I think that your topic is outdated by a couple of years and no longer has the meaning it used to.....Oh yeah and Master do you have that reply copied ive seen like 3 other places before listen gramps (LOL i guess i am too for MTG)the decks you describe were never that strong*no major role at all* and Necro has been gone since umm 96' black summer right??? right well bye for now
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