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Author Topic:   New School VS. Old School, How can they compete?
Atreides
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posted June 28, 2000 07:25 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Atreides Click Here to Email Atreides Click to send Atreides an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hello again, all. I've been writing up some articles on some problems Magic players can expect to see. Today my focus is on new players who are just outmatched by out of print cards.

I happen to be somewhere between old and new school in Magic. I started when the Dark, which is widely considered the last "Old School" set had just been phased out in favor of Fallen Empires.

There is no dispute that "old school" cards are a lot more powerful than many of their "new school" counterparts. We will never see another card as mighty as the Maze of Ith, or as useful as dual lands. Even the commons back then were more powerful. (More on that later)

New players have only limited access to old school cards, since they're mostly out of print. Good, out-of-print rares are all being hoarded by their owners, so trading is limited. Bringing up Mazes of Ith aain, trading on MOTL, it took me NEARLY 2 YEARS to acquire 4.

New players have the Type 2 environment to play in, but the environment is restricting. In Type 1 you can see any number of things that are impossible in Type 2. The whole game is changed. How can new school Magic players compete in the much better Type 1?

THE BLATANTLY OBVIOUS: Get old cards.
Sure, but how?

1- MOTL. It may take a while, but it is an outlet for OOP rares, and OOP commons and uncommons can be found in stacks.

2- Frequent LARGE cardstores. My area (Montreal suburbs) don't house large cardstores. To get to one I'd have to drag myself downtown and since my parents won't give me lifts for anything Magic-related, it's not good for me. For all the rest of you, though:

Large cardstores have large stocks, including large boxes stuffed with commons and uncommons. A great many out-of-print. Large cardstores also have OOP rares in their display cases.

A person you all may want to speak to about cardstores is Adam Sutherland, whose MOTL tag is "argoth" though I haven't heard from him in a good long while. He was working in a large cardstore that was at a time liquidating several Berserks. He can probably give you very good information on tracking down OOP rares, and possibly cards in trade as well. His e-mail address is:

palidor@pacificcoast.net

3- Attend tournaments, Pre-Releases, and Card shows.

At these events, many a player knows there are going to be players looking for OOP rares, and you'd be amazed at what you see in those binders.

4- As a last resort, you can always try mail order.

 
Yawgmoth's Lackey
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posted June 29, 2000 05:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Yawgmoth's Lackey Click Here to Email Yawgmoth's Lackey Click to send Yawgmoth's Lackey an Instant MessageVisit Yawgmoth's Lackey's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I started playing during ice age and I have just as many old(alpha-dark) as I do Type 2. All from MOTL basically, MOTL is the place to trade for anything,just have to have a will and a way

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Master
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posted June 29, 2000 05:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Master Click Here to Email Master Send a private message to Master Click to send Master an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
you newbies ( 95 and up) have it good, all your combo cards your foils, bah, back in my day, the best combo decks that you would see were the enchantress/wombat decks and the channel fireball decks. none of this newfangled necro crap. all we had was beat down and card drawing. thats it. no remove this, remove that. it was beat or be beaten. why one of the best decks was the white weenie deck. and i can remember when moat was 10 bucks.

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Greven_volrath_killer
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posted July 02, 2000 02:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Greven_volrath_killer Click Here to Email Greven_volrath_killer Send a private message to Greven_volrath_killer Click to send Greven_volrath_killer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I get that problem at school, there are people that have cards from Unlimited, Revised, and other old stuff like that. They beat everyone and most of the decks I make can barely touch them unless they get mana-screwed. I make all of my decks Type II, and there are a couple of us around here that do, but(probably because we have no tournies, for now) most people find a good card and put it in. I used to be like that, but now (partly because of MOTL) I think Type II constantly. Master, I believe your post was a bit abrasive, if you were serious.

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Notherin
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posted July 02, 2000 07:09 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Notherin Send a private message to Notherin Click to send Notherin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Well, well, well, it seems like my good real life friend here believes that oldschool can dominate new school without a hitch. Well, the main reason for this is the fact that new school players have problems making decks that don't revolve around combos or a killer card. Thats why they get blown away.

I have rarely used old school cards and it hasn't hurt my decks one bit. The best way to make a deck is to invent one. It is easy to copy a deck and then change it, but it is much more difficult to make a one-of-a-kind deck. That is what i try to do. And it works very well if i do say so myself.

So it really isn't the cards that matter, it is the players using them.

 
Atreides
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posted July 02, 2000 09:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Atreides Click Here to Email Atreides Send a private message to Atreides Click to send Atreides an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Well, my real-life friend Notherin has finally decided to join up here. Good for you.

I'm not flagrantly suggesting that old cards will dominate new cards flat out. It all depends on a number of factors like player intelligence and so on. But, old cards are cards that new players may well never see, and are damn good. If Dark Ritual doesn't get re-printed in the next basic set, new players are screwed for speedy black decks, for example.

I happen to partially agree with your last statement:

Sure, you're a success with new-school. So am I. Sure a lot of people copy old school decks when they have old school cards. BUT the same will happen regardless because you'll get idiots who just go to thedojo.com to get type 2 decks and copy them out entirely.

What I'm saying, basically is that there is a huge disproportion of good vs. crap cards between old and new school.

As Noth and I examined, among new school sets Exodus has the best good-crap ratio: 45%
I believe old school can hit MUCH higher ratios.

 
KIP_NZ
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posted July 08, 2000 01:17 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for KIP_NZ Click Here to Email KIP_NZ Send a private message to KIP_NZ Click to send KIP_NZ an Instant MessageVisit KIP_NZ's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hi
I come in the middle of this as I played in Beta ( have full P9 still) and gave up at the tempest pre-release and started playing again just b4 Nemsis and I hardly know any cards from the sets in between.
I don't agree that you need the big T1 stuff to play cards and you also don't need the 4 Morphlings and 4 Masticores.
At the end of the day you and I play the game for one reason to have fun.
I have to say i carry a P9 deck around with me and 9 out of 10 times i don't play with it as I just get picked on when I go first turn Mox, Mox Lotus Morphling and a land just cause I can.
So the deck doesn't get alot of play, I normaly end up playing my T2 Draw go most of the time, remember T1 only get a good start about 1 in 4 and you can pick on them the other 3 times.
Just some rambling
Adrian
 
Orinn
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posted July 08, 2000 11:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Orinn Click Here to Email Orinn Send a private message to Orinn Click to send Orinn an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I started playing when the Dark came out, and I don't play too much of the older cards, mainly because I play casual games with my friends. I CAN build decks that just wipe out the newer decks, but I mostly play T2 or extended to keep things nice. It wouldn't be any fun to drop duals and Candleabra,Archaeologist, Fork, whatever in every deck. In tournaments, I go for advantage. in casual play, I mostly experiment with new, original decks that have a low- to medium- win percentage. When they win, I know it's because the deck is good, not because it's worth $200 and has a lot of cards my opponents will NEVER own.

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Magic1264
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posted July 23, 2000 11:59 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magic1264 Click Here to Email Magic1264 Send a private message to Magic1264 Click to send Magic1264 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
EXCUSE ME!!!! Old school beating new school... HA!!! That is the biggest joke i have ever heard. People at my school that have been playing since beta and so on, they have trouble competing with new school. Me and my friends started playing with them, and they straight out beat us down. So we started building decks to screw around with combo decks. It was tough, but the best way to screw combo decks it through the new blue. The new alternative play cost spells are my besssst friends. I especially win with my blue/black avatar control deck. They got nothing to defend an avatar of woe coming out 2nd turn. Then i have spells such as foil, force of will, daze, thwart, and misdirection to protect against it.

I guess it is how you use new school and your intelligence level.

 
Davidian
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posted July 25, 2000 02:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Davidian Click Here to Email Davidian Send a private message to Davidian Click to send Davidian an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I am not going to pass judgement on which is better... new school or old school. The truth of the matter is that both schools have their strong points. And basically it comes down to the fact that if you build a deck with the right cards in mind you are going to win.

Old School may have broken cards like P9 but new school has Yawgmoth's Will, Stroke of Genius, Tradewind Rider, Abeyance, etc. Make a deck out of both and you will win hands down. Just look at this Type 1 LD deck:

Note: OS - Old School, NS- New School

5C Land Destruction

1x Black Vise OS
1x Gorilla Shaman NS
1x Yawgmoths Will NS
1x Serra Angel OS
2x Swords to plowshares
2x Disenchants
1x Regrowth OS
3x Wall of Blossoms NS
3x Fireball
1x Braingeyser OS (but NS has stroke so...)
3x Tradewind Riders NS
1x Soul Feast NS
1x Demonic Tutor OS
4x Stone Rains
3x Avalanche Riders NS
4x Pillage NS
4x Sinkhole OS
1x Ice Storm OS
2x Rain of Tears NS

All OS:

1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Diamond (except this one - NS)
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus

2x Volcanic Island OS
2x Reflecting Pools NS
2x Bayou OS
1x Savannah OS
2x Badlands OS
3x Wastelands NS
2x Plateau OS

Outside of the P9 it is about even...11 OS, 10 NS (the numbers switch when the Braingeyser gets changed for Stroke)...

So my point is, why bicker about which school is better when clearly its the card not the school that dominates.

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[Edited 2 times, lastly by Davidian on July 25, 2000]

 
axel Gunarson
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posted July 26, 2000 12:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for axel Gunarson Click Here to Email axel Gunarson Send a private message to axel Gunarson Click to send axel Gunarson an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
hey Atreides i live in montreal
i could get you out of prints and trade em to you if you would like to!
just let me know at assmaster27@hotmail.com
btw old school can be powerfull but is harder to play and win
just my thoughts
seeya

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zabagabe
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posted August 15, 2000 04:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for zabagabe Click Here to Email zabagabe Send a private message to zabagabe Click to send zabagabe an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Access to good OOP cards also varies depending on where you live, in a broad, geographic sense. I live in the Northwest, (Oregon/Washington), where Magic started, and as a result we've got a /lot/ of the older stuff. You'd be surprised how common it is to get it. And because there's such availability, people are more likely to trade them, since they know they can get them back. Anyone else living here experienced this?
As to old school being better than new school, OS has better cards for their cost, but NS has potentially more powerful cards. Sure, a Black Lotus is awesome, but it by itself doesn't do much. Some of the NS stuff I read about (I don't play anymore, and haven't for two years, although I'm debating getting back into it) is just insane. I can't believe it ever got by R&D. :P

-David

 
Ertai4
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posted August 17, 2000 08:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Ertai4 Click Here to Email Ertai4 Send a private message to Ertai4 Click to send Ertai4 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Well both "New AND Old School" have advantages and disadvantages as Davidian said. My personal opinion is that Old School will win most of the time but it all depends on the person who is playing with the cards.

I also STRONGLY agree that decks don't need to be packed with rares to be really good. Infact I try to keep rares to a minimum in most of my decks. This is the reason I think "Old School" is better since it has powerful commons and uncommons. As for "New School" it has better combo cards, etc.

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phoenix
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posted August 19, 2000 08:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for phoenix Click Here to Email phoenix Send a private message to phoenix Click to send phoenix an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Well I would have agreed with Atredian about 3-4 years ago.....

the next couple of years starting with fallen empires after all the big sets"old school" came out were a lot weaker than there ancestor sets. But you've gotta remember to that this was a time that Magic was really starting to lose popularity. Also i'm notsaying that sets like alliances/fallen empires/ visions etc. were bad but they just couldn't compete in standardized play! It was divided in casual. You either play T1or the current block and if the 2 worlds collided then the new set gets snuffed out. Not true any longer. It began with the Urza's block when Magic really started up again and there was a set full of powerhous broken cards!! every set since Saga keeps adding cards that would never have left the playtest trials during the rath cycle and earlier (cept "old school") Now you can make a great deck combining the best of both generations to create some really interesting and powerful decks!! It seems that WotC is reverting back to its good ol days when gold cards were GOOD and the set was full of great cards that aer listed as commons in newer sets but would definetly be uncommons and some even rares during the middle ages if you will. So I think that your topic is outdated by a couple of years and no longer has the meaning it used to.....Oh yeah and Master do you have that reply copied ive seen like 3 other places before listen gramps (LOL i guess i am too for MTG)the decks you describe were never that strong*no major role at all* and Necro has been gone since umm 96' black summer right??? right well bye for now

 

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