Click Here!
         
  Magic Online Trading League Bulletin Board
  Articles
  My Views on Torment

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | rules | memberlist | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!   next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   My Views on Torment
Tha Gunslinga
Moderator
posted January 24, 2002 01:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
After reading countless threads entitled “Why Torment Sucks” or something similar, I thought I’d look through the spoiler and see for myself.
Here’s what I got out of it:
First of all, Torment is indeed “The Black Set.”
Out of 141 cards in the set, 40 are black, 28 Blue, 28 Red, 21 Green, 21 White, 5 Land, and 0 Artifact. A total of 62 cards either are black, have black-using abilities, or relate to black or Swamps somehow.
Second, there’s a load of Threshold in Torment. I’d guess that over 75% of the creatures in Torment have Threshold.
After looking over the spoiler (available from Brainburst.com), sorting out what I felt to be good or bad, and then sifting through the list for the extra-special cards, I found a total of 17 cards that I felt sucked totally. Either they were useless, powered-down versions of older cards, examples of poor design, or just cards that don’t have an obvious use yet but may be good someday. However, I feel that the majority of the cards that I labeled as “loser” will be tossed in junk boxes or will plummet like Volley of Boulders to the bottom of the value list.
As for good cards, I found 62 cards that I thought were seriously good for one reason or another. That’s right, nearly half the set. Some of these, like Juzam Djinn or Necropotence, may be ignored at first, but eventually someone will find a use for them and they’ll dominate like Academy/Memory Jar decks did. Even better, a fair portion of these good cards are commons or uncommons.
Just so you know, cards that would be viable in draft but not in regular gaming, like Invasion’s Glimmering Angel, are left off.
Each card’s stats are in regular type, and my opinion is in bold.

Particularly Good Torment Cards:

Equal Treatment
U, Instant , 1W
If any source would deal 1 or more damage to a
creature or player this turn, it deals 2 damage to
that creature or player instead.
Draw a card.

It’s only 2 mana, and a cantrip at that. Yet it can turn your opponent’s 20-point Ghitu Fire into 2 damage. It can double the damage your army of 1/1 weenies can do. It can knock 5 points off a Thorn Elemental’s Damage. I’m not sure whether it can hurt a kickered Rage, since it does lower damage, but since it’s replacing damage, it might get around it. We’ll have to see.

Major Teroh
R, Creature - Bird Soldier Legend, 3W, 2/3
Flying
3WW, Sacrifice Major Teroh: Remove all black creatures
from the game.

A color-hoser from hell. Black has more recursion than any other color, and removing its creatures from the game is brutal. Like several other vicious Torment cards, it can also be Sleighted with Alter Reality to any other color.

Morningtide
R, Sorcery , 1W
Remove all cards in all graveyards from the game.

A poor version of Tormod’s Crypt, but it’s all we’ve got. Vicious against Reanimator, Flashback, Threshold, and a lot of other Odyssey block cards. Too bad it hurts you too.

Mystic Familiar
C, Creature - Bird, 1W, 1/2
Flying
Threshold - Mystic Familiar gets +1/+1 and has
protection from black.

A 1/2 flyer for 2 mana is decent. A nice threshold makes this playable in some decks.

Pay No Heed
C, Instant , W
Prevent all damage a source of your choice would deal
this turn.

One mana to prevent that 20-point Ghitu Fire or Penumbra Wurm? Nice! It can nullify a Voracious Cobra’s damage, allowing it to be killed. A sweet card that I’ve been waiting a long time for.

Reborn Hero
R, Creature - Soldier, 2W, 2/2
Attacking doesn't cause Reborn Hero to tap.
Threshold - When Reborn Hero is put into a graveyard
from play, you may pay WW. If you do, return Reborn
Hero to play under your control.

Let’s see, you can Wrath and bring it back to life. You could probably set up an infinity loop. Even without threshold, it’s a 2/2 that doesn’t tap for 3 mana. With threshold, it’s almost unkillable. A VERY sweet card.

Stern Judge
U, Creature - Cleric, 2W, 2/2
T: Each player loses 1 life for each swamp he or she
controls.

I like Karma Better, but I’ll take what I can get. It can be Hacked as well to a different land type, but who cares? Like Morningtide, it could be better, but it helps in the T2 environment.

Teroh's Vanguard
U, Creature - Nomad, 3W, 2/3
You may play Teroh's Vanguard any time you could play
an instant.
Threshold - When Teroh's Vanguard comes into play,
creatures you control gain protection from black until
end of turn.

Another black-hoser. It can be Sleighted with Alter Reality as well, and the instant play allows it to nullify creature-kill spells like Dark Banishing or Inferno. It also can make your creatures unblockable. It’s not even a rare.

Transcendence
R, Enchantment, 3WWW
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
When you have 20 or more life, you lose the game.
Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1
life you lost.

You can pay life with Necropotence, then bounce it, pay more life, then replay it at 1 life or so. It’s a toughie, but like Necropotence, I think it’ll rule once someone figures out how to use it.

Vengeful Dreams
R, Instant , WW
As an additional cost to play Vengeful Dreams, discard
X cards from your hand.
Remove X target attacking creatures from the game.

A nasty mean white card from hell. Not fair by any means, this can wipe your opponent instantly, and for only 2 mana (and a few cards).

Alter Reality
R, Instant , 1U
Change the text of target permanent or spell by
replacing all instances of one color word with
another. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
Flashback 1U

A Sleight of Mind with flashback. Unbelievably vicious in combination with half a dozen Torment cards.

Ambassador Laquatus
R, Creature - Merfolk Legend, 1UU, 1/3
3: Target player puts the top three cards of his or
her library into his or her graveyard.

Cruel and unusual. With enough mana, it can be game in a few turns. Try it with Traumatize and Millstone. A 1/3 Merfolk for 3 isn’t half bad either. This may see major play.

False Memories
R, Instant , 1U
Put the top seven cards of your library into your
graveyard. At end of turn, remove seven cards in your
graveyard from the game.

Instant threshold. It combos. Also good for getting a few Calls and Roars into the graveyard. You can remove junk like Giant Growth and False Memories itself.

Hydromorph Guardian
C, Creature - Guardian, 2U, 2/2
U, Sacrifice Hydromorph Guardian: Counter target spell
that targets one or more creatures you control.

A 2/2 for 3 that can protect a creature of yours. Not bad for a common.

Llawan, Cephalid Empress
R, Creature - Cephalid Legend, 3U, 2/3
When Llawan, Cephalid Empress comes into play, return
all blue creatures your opponents control to their
owners' hands.
Your opponents can't play blue creature spells.

Use Alter Reality to wipe out any deck with creatures. I can’t believe this card exists, since it can be played 3rd or 4th turn and will shut down White Weenie (counter their Swords to Plowshares, though), Green Stompy (Call can be Syncopated or Dissipated), Sligh (Divert the burn, or maybe Diplomatic Immunity the Empress), and pretty much anything else. I want these badly.

Plagiarize
R, Instant , 3U
Until end of turn, if target player would draw a card,
instead that player skips that draw and you draw a
card.

Pretty decent. Your opponent’s Brainstorm turns into an Ancestral Recall for you and 2 draw steps wasted for them. Usable with Prosperity, and a few other things. The rarity and casting cost hurt, but someone’ll find a use for it.

Retraced Image
R, Sorcery , U
Reveal a card in your hand, then put that card into
play if it has the same name as a permanent in play.

Unbearably unfair. Use it with 2 Hypnoxes. Get one in the graveyard fast and Exhume it. Then use this to play the other one. Since it’s in from your hand, your opponent’s hand is now out of the game. You have a pair of 8/8 Flyers. This can be accomplished by 4th turn or so. A nice way to slap big creatures in play fast. It can get around Meddling Mage, too.

Cabal Ritual
C, Instant , 1B
Add BBB to your mana pool.
Threshold - Instead add BBBBB to your mana pool.

It’s no Dark Ritual. Dark Rit was for combos, this is just a nice late-game card to improve a Drain Life or something similar. If you want, however, you can use it with False Memories for instant threshold. I can see a turn 3 or 4 Hypnox. Not as good as Dark Ritual, but it’s not too bad.

Carrion Rats
C, Creature - Rat, B, 2/1
Whenever Carrion Rats attacks or blocks, any player
may remove a card in his or her graveyard from the
game. If a player does, Carrion Rats deals no combat
damage this turn.

Like Jackal Pup, but with a less painful drawback. The graveyard removal will probably hurt your opponent, too.

Carrion Wurm
U, Creature - Zombie Wurm, 3BB, 6/5
Whenever Carrion Wurm attacks or blocks, any player
may remove three cards in his or her graveyard from
the game. If a player does, Carrion Wurm deals no
combat damage this turn.

A much bigger Carrion Rats. A 6/5 Zombie for 5 mana isn’t too bad, and the graveyard removal not only will hurt your opponent but will be hard for them to do for very long.

Chainer, Dementia Master
R, Creature - Minion Legend, 3BB, 3/3
All Nightmares get +1/+1.
BBB, Pay 3 life: Put target creature card from a
graveyard into play under your control. That creature
is black and is a Nightmare in addition to its
creature types.
When Chainer, Dementia Master leaves play, remove all
Nightmares from the game.

Very powerful, and very risky. The leaves-play ability is painful, though I suppose you could use it with Donate and Conspiracy to wipe your opponent’s creatures out. A decently powerful card, but more coolness than playability. A Nightmare deck is possible, but not probable.

Chainer's Edict
U, Sorcery , 1B
Target player sacrifices a creature.
Flashback 5BB

One of the most anticipated cards in Torment, a Diabolic Edict with Flashback is a nasty card. True, Diabolic Edict was an instant, and the flashback for Chainer’s Edict is quite high, but it’s nice to have Edict back in Type 2.

Dawn of the Dead
R, Enchantment , 2BBB
At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose 1 life.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may return target
creature card from your graveyard to play. That
creature gains haste until end of turn. Remove it from
the game at end of turn.

Similar to Reya Dawnbringer, you get haste and a cheaper casting cost, but you’re saddled with disappearing creatures and life loss. It combos nicely with Buried Alive and will kick in the right deck.

Gloomdrifter
U, Creature - Minion, 3B, 2/2
Flying
Threshold - When Gloomdrifter comes into play,
nonblack creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn.

Neat come-into-play effect. Painful for your opponents, and the right deck can work it with Massacre or something like that to wipe your opponent’s creatures out. You even get a 2/2 flyer after the effect wears off.

Grotesque Hybrid
U, Creature - Zombie, 4B, 3/3
Whenever Grotesque Hybrid deals combat damage to a
creature, destroy that creature. It can't be
regenerated.
Discard a card from your hand: Grotesque Hybrid gains
flying and protection from green and from white until
end of turn.

Without the discard ability it would suck. Fairly powerful with it. A decently powerful creature. Pro-white and green and flying is a lot for one discard.

Hypnox
R, Creature - Nightmare Horror, 8BBB, 8/8
Flying
When Hypnox comes into play, if you played it from
your hand, remove all cards in target opponent's hand
from the game.
When Hypnox leaves play, return the removed cards to
their owner's hand.

A huge, cool creature. I can see some people playing it, but most will ignore it because of it’s casting cost and the fact that it’s ability is only if played from the hand. Still, it’s one of the biggest black flyers ever, and its ability is insane. Very cool, but somewhat hard to play. Nice trader bait.

Insidious Dreams
R, Instant , 3B
As an additional cost to play Insidious Dreams,
discard X cards from your hand.
Search your library for X cards. Then shuffle your
library and put those cards on top of it in any order.

A Vampiric Tutor for multiple cards. Sweet. It hurts, but a U/B deck with this could kill nicely, especially with Madness.

Laquatus's Champion
R, Creature - Nightmare Horror, 4BB, 6/3
When Laquatus's Champion comes into play, target
player loses 6 life.
When Laquatus's Champion leaves play, that player
gains 6 life.
B: Regenerate Laquatus's Champion.

A 6/3 regenerative for 6 mana, Laquatus’s Champion is a nice black creature. The ability can shred an opponent, taking on average about 1/3 of their life. Incidentally, if you give it phasing, like with Teferi’s Curse, you lose 6 life, then gain 6 life every other turn. Not incredible, but U/B doesn’t usually have much life-gaining, and it can pay for a Necropotence or Bargain nicely.

Last Laugh
R, Enchantment , 2BB
Whenever a permanent other than Last Laugh is put into
a graveyard from play, Last Laugh deals 1 damage to
each creature and each player.
When no creatures are in play, sacrifice Last Laugh.

If your opponent has a 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, and 6/6 in play, you can kill the 6/6 and Last Laugh will kill the rest. A nice row-of-dominoes effect that I can see being used somehow. I like Pestilence better, since it doesn’t die till end of turn and you can control it better, but this card begs to be comboed.

Mind Sludge
U, Sorcery , 4B
Target player discards a card from his or her hand for
each swamp you control.

Raw power for discard. Later in the game against an Ivory Tower deck it’s quite nice, and while Mind Twist is generally better, that’s Restricted in T1 and doesn’t exist in T2.

Mortal Combat
R, Enchantment , 2BB
At the beginning of your upkeep, if twenty or more
creature cards are in your graveyard, you win the
game.

Begs to be comboed. Another win condition for a Battle of Wits deck. Traumatizing yourself is now an even better idea. Anything that lets you automatically win is just plain unfair.

Mutilate
R, Sorcery , 2BB
All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn for each
swamp you control.

A black Wrath of God. Fourth turn it can give –4/-4, which will kill pretty much anything. Giant Growth can get around it, but it’s still nice for Black.

Nantuko Shade
R, Creature - Insect Shade, BB, 2/1
B: Nantuko Shade gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

This is way better than Frozen Shade. Same ability, but a 2/1 for 2 mana beats a 0/1 for 3 mana any day. Too bad it’s a rare, but it’ll see play in a lot of black weenie decks that use pumpable creatures.

Organ Grinder
C, Creature - Zombie, 2B, 3/1
T, Remove three cards in your graveyard from the game:
Target player loses 3 life.

A 3/1 Zombie for 3 mana is already good. The ability may hurt your graveyard, but “target player loses 3 life” is just insane. A very nice common.

Sengir Vampire
R, Creature - Vampire, 3BB, 4/4
Flying
Whenever a creature dealt damage by Sengir Vampire
this turn is put into a graveyard, put a +1/+1 counter
on Sengir Vampire.

Sengir Vampire is one of the top “bargain” creatures in that it’s a 4/4 flyer with a nice ability for 5 mana. Yes, a Prophetic Bolt or Flametongue Kavu can kill it, but it’ll rule in Draft and may do nicely in Type 2. I don’t like the picture much myself, but I do like the fact that they’re bringing Sengir back, and not even in a base set.

Shade's Form
C, Enchant Creature , 1BB
Enchanted creature has "B: This creature gets +1/+1
until end of turn."
When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard,
return that creature to play under your control.

The pumping ability is nice, but the second is nicer. Most creature-stealers (Animate Dead, Ashen Powder) are gone from T2, and this is a nice addition with pumping built in. It’s even a common!

Sickening Dreams
U, Sorcery , 1B
As an additional cost to play Sickening Dreams,
discard X cards from your hand.
Sickening Dreams deals X damage to each creature and
each player.

It combos. Try it with Prosperity to replace Cadaverous Bloom. I can see this being used in a few ways, and it’s great for clearing the board early. Not incredibly playable, but someone’ll figure it out. Nice that it’s uncommon.

Zombie Trailblazer
U, Creature - Zombie, BBB, 2/2
Tap an untapped Zombie you control: Target land
becomes a swamp until end of turn.
Tap an untapped Zombie you control: Target creature
gains swampwalk until end of turn.

A 2/2 Zombie for 3 mana that has a nice built-in Opposition/Mishra’s Helix effect. With enough Zombies (Tombstone Stairwell, Zombie Infestation, a decent Zombie Deck) you can lock down your opponent’s lands during their upkeep so they can’t play anything. It even lets your creatures become unblockable. I can see Lord of the Undead/Phyrexian Scuta decks making a comeback with some of the Torment Zombies.

Balthor the Stout
R, Creature - Dwarf Legend, 1RR, 2/2
All Barbarians get +1/+1.
R: Target Barbarian gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

A Barbarian booster is somewhat odd, but I’m not complaining. It works beautifully with Kamahl, since a 7/2 with firebreathing is much more dangerous than a 6/1. A few other decent Barbarians in the Odyssey block, too.

Crackling Club
C, Enchant Creature , R
Enchanted creature gets +1/+0.
Sacrifice Crackling Club: Crackling Club deals 1
damage to target creature.

The permanent boosting isn’t bad, and the pinging ability is something your opponent will forget about until it finishes off their best creature. A versatile card that will be nice in Draft and may see a bit of play in Sligh decks.

Crazed Firecat
U, Creature - Cat, 5RR, 4/4
When Crazed Firecat comes into play, flip a coin until
you lose a flip. Put a +1/+1 counter on Crazed Firecat
for each flip you win.

Nice for an uncommon. Use it with Chance Encounter, and maybe Recurring Nightmare to get even more flips. Could backfire as a 4/4 for 7, but with a few nice flips it’s a 7/7 for 7 or even better. An interesting card.

Grim Lavamancer
R, Creature - Wizard, R, 1/1
R, T, Remove two cards in your graveyard from the
game: Grim Lavamancer deals 2 damage to target
creature or player.

I’ve seen a lot of interest in this card. A 1/1 pinger for 1 is nice, and the 2 damage is even better. The 2 cards can hurt, but a decent deck can keep a nicely filling graveyard, and a Timmy on steroids on turn 1 can wipe out most weenie decks. Too bad it’s a rare, but still a nice card.

Hell-Bent Raider
R, Creature - Barbarian, 1RR, 2/2
First strike, haste
Discard a card at random from your hand: Hell-Bent
Raider gains protection from white until end of turn

A nice Barbarian for Balthor to boost. A 2/2 first-striker with haste for 3 mana is already nice, and the discard ability is pretty fine too. Shouldn’t be a rare, though.

Overmaster
R, Sorcery , R
The next instant or sorcery spell you play this turn
can't be countered by spells or abilities. Draw a
card.

Turns an x-damage spell into a kicked Rage. You even get a card. If it gets countered, then just do nothing and laugh at the counter your opponent just wasted. Use Overmaster with Kaervek’s Torch for an uncounterable, hard-to-Divert x-damage.

Pardic Collaborator
U, Creature - Barbarian, 3R, 2/2
First strike
B: Pardic Collaborator gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

A pumpable first-striker. Very nice.

Petradon
R, Creature - Nightmare Beast, 6RR, 5/6
When Petradon comes into play, remove two target lands
from the game.
When Petradon leaves play, return the removed cards to
play under their owners' control.
R: Petradon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

I thought it sucked until I saw it had firebreathing. A big red firebreathing creature with a nasty 187 effect. This may see major play. Reanimate it and lock your opponent down.

Radiate
R, Instant, 3RR
Choose target instant or sorcery spell that targets
only a single permanent or player. For each other
permanent or player that spell could target, put a
copy of the spell onto the stack. Each copy targets a
different one of those permanents and players.

Probably the most talked-about Torment card. Like a Mirari that’s out of control, Radiate can be used with cantrips for major card advantage. You can use it with Vindicate to wipe out everything. You can make your opponent’s Rage hit them, too. With pro-red creatures you can turn a fireball into a selective Inferno. Very playable, just like Mirari. We’ll see if anyone actually uses it.

Skullscorch
R, Sorcery , RR
Target player discards two cards at random from his or
her hand unless that player has Skullscorch deal 4
damage to him or her.

A red Hymn to Tourach with a painful escape for your opponent. Sucks that it’s a rare, but a red discard card is just unbelievable. This will see major play, possibly in Sligh.

Temporary Insanity
U, Instant , 3R
Untap target creature with power less than the number
of cards in your graveyard and gain control of it
until end of turn. That creature gains haste until end
of turn.

A red Ray of Command with a drawback. Thankfully, it’s not a rare. Like Skullscorch, it’s nice because it’s something red doesn’t get normally.

Anurid Scavenger
U, Creature - Beast, 2G, 3/3
Protection from black
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Anurid
Scavenger unless you put a card from your graveyard on
the bottom of your library.

A 3/3 pro-black for 3 with a slow-going Feldon’s Cane effect. Very nice.

Basking Rootwalla
C, Creature - Lizard, G, 1/1
1G: Basking Rootwalla gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Play this ability only once each turn.
Madness 0

A decent weenie with an insane madness cost. Use it with another semi-broken card, Wild Mongrel. +1/+1 AND a free creature. Rootwalla’s boosting ability is nice, too. The new Wild Mongrel, for its cost and commonality.

Centaur Chieftain
U, Creature - Centaur, 3G, 3/3
Haste
Threshold - When Centaur Chieftain comes into play,
creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain trample until
end of turn.

A 3/3 haste for 4 is insane for a green creature, and it’s not even a rare. With threshold it’s a mini-Overrun for less mana. This should see a lot of play. Now where’s a centaur booster when you need one?

Far Wanderings
C, Sorcery , 2G
Search your library for a basic land card and put that
card into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Threshold - Instead search your library for three
basic land cards and put them into play tapped. Then
shuffle your library.

Decent first ability, but with threshold it can thin your library out and provides nice fodder for a variety of cards, from Last Stand to Ghitu Fire. Pretty slick for a common.

Gurzigost
R, Creature - Beast, 3GG, 6/8
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Gurzigost
unless you put two cards from your graveyard on the
bottom of your library.
GG, Discard a card from your hand: You may have
Gurzigost deal its combat damage to defending player
this turn as though it weren't blocked.

A Rhox the size of Island Fish Jasconius that even recycles your graveyard for you. Nice and cheap, too. Yeah, it dies when your graveyard runs out, but it combos with some blue Torment creatures that Mill you every turn. I wish it could regenerate, but that would be a little too much.

Insist
R, Sorcery , G
The next creature spell you play this turn can't be
countered by spells or abilities. Draw a card.

A very nice green cantrip that can save your butt. Green has always hated blue, and this is just another nice card to add to the rivalry. Nice counter-bait, and its cheap cost means you can play a few in a row if the first ones get countered.

Krosan Restorer
C, Creature - Druid, 2G, 1/2
T: Untap target land.
Threshold - T: Untap up to three target lands.

A slightly improved Ley Druid with a really nice threshold. My poor Ley Druids are headed for the junk box. It’s even a common. Provides a flood of mana later on.

Nantuko Blightcutter
R, Creature - Insect Druid, 2G, 2/2
Protection from black
Threshold - Nantuko Blightcutter gets +1/+1 for each
black permanent your opponents control.

A nice anti-black creature. Hard to kill, and even Mutilate will have a hard time killing this creature. Darkest Hour, anyone? A cheap, effective anti-black card that’s huge and virtually unblockable and unkillable against black.

Nantuko Cultivator
R, Creature - Insect Druid, 3G, 2/2
When Nantuko Cultivator comes into play, you may
discard any number of land cards from your hand. Put
that many +1/+1 counters on Nantuko Cultivator and
draw that many cards.

A fast creature that could get huge real fast. With Land Tax and Spellbook it can be a 10/10 on turn 4 that nets you 10 cards as well. Once someone builds a deck around it, the Cultivator will see major play.

Narcissism
U, Enchantment , 2G
G, Discard a card from your hand: Target creature gets
+2/+2 until end of turn.
G, Sacrifice Narcissism: Target creature gets +2/+2
until end of turn.

Pretty decent. Could work in a Prosperous Bloom-style deck. Use it with Nantuko Cultivator for a load of cards that get pitched next turn to boost the Cultivator to a 20/20.

Nostalgic Dreams
R, Sorcery , GG
As an additional cost to play Nostalgic Dreams,
discard X cards from your hand.
Return X target cards from your graveyard to your
hand. Remove Nostalgic Dreams from the game.

OK, this is not fair at all. Recall cost XX as well as the discard, and it was so useful that it got restricted. This is cheaper to play and could be insane in Green Stompy. Pitch your extra creatures to grab your Giant Growths and Briar Shields back.

Seton's Scout
U, Creature - Centaur Druid, 1G, 2/1
Seton's Scout may block as though it had flying.
Threshold - Seton's Scout gets +2/+2.

A nice green alternative to Longbow Archers. It’s best with Threshold (duh!), but it’s not too bad without it. May see play in Green Stompy.

Cabal Coffers
U, Land
2, T: Add B to your mana pool for each swamp you
control.

Insanely unfair. It’s like a black Cradle or Academy. Late-game it practically doubles a Drain Life, and it makes big black creatures playable earlier. It’s not even a rare. Cabal Coffers will replace Lake of the Dead in my Pestilence deck as soon as I can get a set.

Especially bad Torment cards:

Aven Trooper
C, Creature - Bird Soldier, 3W, 1/1
Flying
2W, Discard a card from your hand: Aven Trooper gets
+1/+2 until end of turn.

A 1/1 flyer for 4 mana with a really expensive Wild Mongrel ability. Maybe if it were 3 mana and the ability didn’t cost mana. Weak.

Frantic Purification
C, Instant , 2W
Destroy target enchantment.
Madness W

]Madness isn’t too bad, but Erase is way better. The regular cost is too much, too. Even Disenchant beats this.

Coral Net
C, Enchant Creature , U
Coral Net can enchant only a green or white creature.
Enchanted creature has "At the beginning of your
upkeep, sacrifice this creature unless you discard a
card from your hand."

A better Apathy, but it’s got a major drawback in that it can only hit 2/5 of the creatures out there, not counting Artifacts. It sucks.

Stupefying Touch
U, Enchant Creature , 1U
When Stupefying Touch comes into play, draw a card.
Enchanted creature's activated abilities can't be
played.

A poor Bind. Bind is a surprise card, and this isn’t. No one in their right mind would really worry about activated abilities anyway. Might see a bit of play as a cheap cantrip, but it’s an uncommon. Poor.

Turbulent Dreams
R, Sorcery , UU
As an additional cost to play Turbulent Dreams,
discard X cards from your hand.
Return X target nonland permanents to their owners'
hands.

A cheaper, but lousier, Distorting Wake. The discard hurts, and it can’t even hit lands. I prefer Wash Out to this, which is one of the lousiest rares in Torment. Boomerang and Unsummon are better early on anyway.

Cabal Surgeon
C, Creature - Minion, 2BB, 2/1
2BB, T, Remove two cards in your graveyard from the
game: Return target creature card from your graveyard
to your hand.

Too expensive. A 2/1 for 4 mana with a 4 mana ability is too much. I much prefer the spellshaper for Raise Dead.

Cabal Torturer
C, Creature - Minion, 1BB, 1/1
B, T: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Threshold - 3BB, T: Target creature gets -2/-2 until
end of turn.

Decent regular ability, but the Threshold costs 5 freaking mana! This creature is way too expensive. Try Avatar of Woe, Minion of Leshrac, or even Minion of Tevesh Szat instead.

Crippling Fatigue
C, Sorcery , 1BB
Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
Flashback-1B, Pay 3 life.

A poor Enfeeblement with a painful flashback. I don’t like it. The flashback-the-same-turn may be possible, but I still don’t like it.

Ichorid
R, Creature - Horror, 3B, 3/1
Haste
At end of turn, sacrifice Ichorid.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Ichorid is in your
graveyard, you may remove a black creature card in
your graveyard other than Ichorid from the game. If
you do, return Ichorid to play.

A poor version of Ashen Ghoul, which wasn’t even a rare. I’ve seen a lot of people praising it, but I don’t see anything good. The EOT sacrifice just plain sucks. Yeah, it can return, but it can only do it a few times, and it’s power, toughness, and casing cost are just the same as Ashen Ghoul, only the Ghoul doesn’t die automatically.

Psychotic Haze
C, Instant , 2BB
Psychotic Haze deals 1 damage to each creature and
each player.
Madness 1B

WAY too much mana, even with madness.

Unhinge
C, Sorcery , 2B
Target player discards a card from his or her hand.
Draw a card.

A sucky cantrip that goes back to Ice Age (Mind Ravel). I didn’t like it then, and I don’t like it now.

Waste Away
C, Instant , 4B
As an additional cost to play Waste Away, discard a
card from your hand.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

Five mana is bad enough, but a discard as well? This can kill black creatures, which is nice, but it’s way too expensive, which is not.

Pyromania
U, Enchantment , 2R
1R, Discard a card at random from your hand: Pyromania
deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
1R, Sacrifice Pyromania: Pyromania deals 1 damage to
target creature or player.

Too much cost for too little effect. Two mana and a RANDOM discard for one damage just sucks. At least it’s not a rare.

Sonic Seizure
C, Instant , R
As an additional cost to play Sonic Seizure, discard a
card at random from your hand.
Sonic Seizure deals 3 damage to target creature or
player.

It’s like Lightning Bolt crossed with Sonic Burst. The problem is that it’s a random discard and that even Shock is better.

Acorn Harvest
C, Sorcery , 3G
Put two 1/1 green Squirrel creature tokens into play.
Flashback-1G, Pay 3 life.

Moderately expensive, and the flashback hurts. If your opponent gained 3 life instead of you losing 3, it would be a bit more playable. Stick to Chatter. May see play in Squirrel decks.

Centaur Veteran
C, Creature - Centaur, 5G, 3/3
Trample
G, Discard a card from your hand: Regenerate Centaur
Veteran.

A 3/3 trampler with a bad regeneration ability for 6 freaking mana. This sucks.

Krosan Constrictor
C, Creature - Snake, 3G, 2/2
Swampwalk
T: Target black creature gets -2/-0 until end of turn.

A weak black hoser. There’s way better stuff out there.

Boogers
Banned
posted January 24, 2002 04:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Boogers Click Here to Email Boogers Send a private message to Boogers Click to send Boogers an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
My god, did you even THINK about how these cards may affect Type 2 or Limited? On some of these you're just wrong.

Ichorid and Cabal Torturer are very nice in constructed and limited respectively, and Acorn Harvest has limited potential as well. It's 4 Squirrels for 1 card and 3 life. It isn't terrible. Think about other formats than extended and Type 1, considering this set very lightly affects those 2 formats.

__________________
"Where are you Jebus??"
-Homer Simpson

 
Tha Gunslinga
Moderator
posted January 24, 2002 06:48 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
Actually, pretty much all my thinking was based off of T2 and Extended play, since usually very little of a new set finds a home in Type 1 very quickly.
As for the Acorn Harvest, it costs a forkload of mana to put these 4 squirrels in. Not only is Deranged Hermit much better, but even in T2 you couldn't use Acorn harvest until the 3rd or 4th turn. I suppose it could be pitched to Wild Mongrel and then flashed back, but 2 squirrel tokens for 2 mana and 3 life is pretty bad too. Chatter is good because it can be played 1st turn and flashed back the next turn. On your 3rd turn it can be played, then flashed back instantly. Acorn Harvest may be 4 squirrels for 1 card and 3 life, but it's also 6 mana and 0 cards toward threshold.
As for Ichorid and Cabal Torturer, I specifically stated that I wasn't reviewing cards based on what would be good in draft or constructed play, because that's a whole different game. Cabal Torturer is a load of mana, and its ability is good early, but it's hard to play early. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why Ichorid is any good. Yes, it can return from the grave, but it dies automatically at end of turn, and you have to empty your graveyard to keep it around.
As for your last comment, I kept my thoughts on T2 for the entire list. Every card was reviewed based on how I think it'll do in T2 tournament play.

__________________
The destruction of everything is the creation of something new. Your new world order is on fire and soon you’ll be too.
Sabotage will set us free. Throw a rock in the machine.

GAB Dark Blue Team
Commander Tha Gunslinga

iakae
Banned
posted January 24, 2002 07:18 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iakae Click Here to Email iakae Send a private message to iakae Click to send iakae an Instant MessageVisit iakae's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:

Carrion Rats
C, Creature - Rat, B, 2/1
Whenever Carrion Rats attacks or blocks, any player
may remove a card in his or her graveyard from the
game. If a player does, Carrion Rats deals no combat
damage this turn.

Like Jackal Pup, but with a less painful drawback. The graveyard removal will probably hurt your opponent, too.


One comment on this. Carrion Rats is, hands down, inferior to Jackal Pup, and the drawback for the Rats is most definitely harsher. Yes, you take damage when the Pup does, but the entire point is that a Pup deals a guaranteed two damage. That is why, as a 2/1 for one, the Pup is completely unmatched in Extended as the most efficient aggressive creature available.

Carrion Rats, while good, are nowhere near Jackal Pup's league. Since your opponent can Fog them any turn he/she has something in his/her graveyard, you're not guaranteed to do damage. You can't really burn or otherwise kill blockers to continue to do damage with the Rats, as your opponent can simply remove the dead blocker to Fog. This may not seem like all that big of a deal, but it goes a long way towards completely negating the effect of an early game Carrion Rats. In Standard, there may very well be no better choice, but there's no way to make a sane argument for the Rats drawback being less of a problem than Jackal Pup's.

 
Tha Gunslinga
Moderator
posted January 24, 2002 08:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
Eh, I suppose you're right. The Pup does do a guaranteed 2 pts of damage. I just like the Rats because if you drop them fast your opponent can't remove easily because their graveyard'll probably be almost empty.
I personally prefer Carrion Rats to Jackal Pup, since if an opponent Shocks the Pup you end up with 2 less life and a dead creature, but if they pay the card-removal cost for the Rats they're a card further from Threshold and you've still got the Rats.
Nevertheless, I see your point and agree that Pup would be better than the Rats if you don't worry about collateral damage but are focused on doing your opponent harm.

__________________
The destruction of everything is the creation of something new. Your new world order is on fire and soon you’ll be too.
Sabotage will set us free. Throw a rock in the machine.

GAB Dark Blue Team
Commander Tha Gunslinga

iakae
Banned
posted January 24, 2002 08:22 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iakae Click Here to Email iakae Send a private message to iakae Click to send iakae an Instant MessageVisit iakae's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
Nevertheless, I see your point and agree that Pup would be better than the Rats if you don't worry about collateral damage but are focused on doing your opponent harm.


That's sort of the point of a 2/1 for one.

 
Trnothr
Member
posted January 25, 2002 03:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trnothr Click Here to Email Trnothr Send a private message to Trnothr Click to send Trnothr an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Like said earlier, you're just plain wrong on most of the cards. I stopped reading about half-way, trying to hold back tears.

__________________
Am I the one you think I am, or just the one you didn't expect?

 
Pandeburst
Member
posted January 25, 2002 05:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pandeburst Click Here to Email Pandeburst Send a private message to Pandeburst Click to send Pandeburst an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:

Equal Treatment
U, Instant , 1W
If any source would deal 1 or more damage to a
creature or player this turn, it deals 2 damage to
that creature or player instead.
Draw a card.

[b]It’s only 2 mana, and a cantrip at that. Yet it can turn your opponent’s 20-point Ghitu Fire into 2 damage. It can double the damage your army of 1/1 weenies can do. It can knock 5 points off a Thorn Elemental’s Damage. I’m not sure whether it can hurt a kickered Rage, since it does lower damage, but since it’s replacing damage, it might get around it. We’ll have to see.

[/B]


From the FAQ

Equal Treatment's effect is not damage prevention. It will lower the amount of damage dealt by a kicked Urza's Rage from 10 to 2.


__________________
~Pandeburst

 
Tha Gunslinga
Moderator
posted January 25, 2002 07:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Trnothr:
Like said earlier, you're just plain wrong on most of the cards. I stopped reading about half-way, trying to hold back tears.


So tell me what I'm doing wrong, don't just yell out "article sucks!" and run off.
I'd appreciate some info on why this sucks.

__________________
The destruction of everything is the creation of something new. Your new world order is on fire and soon you’ll be too.
Sabotage will set us free. Throw a rock in the machine.

GAB Dark Blue Team
Commander Tha Gunslinga

Trelocke
Member
posted January 25, 2002 10:21 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trelocke Click Here to Email Trelocke Send a private message to Trelocke Click to send Trelocke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
Retraced Image
R, Sorcery , U
Reveal a card in your hand, then put that card into
play if it has the same name as a permanent in play.

[b]Unbearably unfair. Use it with 2 Hypnoxes. Get one in the graveyard fast and Exhume it. Then use this to play the other one. Since it’s in from your hand, your opponent’s hand is now out of the game. You have a pair of 8/8 Flyers. This can be accomplished by 4th turn or so. A nice way to slap big creatures in play fast. It can get around Meddling Mage, too.
[/B]


I've seen several reviews of this card that basically say, "ho hum". Mana excelleration for blue?! How broken can that be?! Not to mention being able to put card into play without worring about counter backup. IMHO, this card is going to be outstanding. Of course, being a blue player, I'm biased.

__________________
I never said I don't
believe in God. I just
happen to believe he's
an a-hole.

 
Preacher
Member
posted January 25, 2002 11:16 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Preacher Click Here to Email Preacher Click to send Preacher an Instant MessageVisit Preacher's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trelocke:
I've seen several reviews of this card that basically say, "ho hum". Mana excelleration for blue?! How broken can that be?! Not to mention being able to put card into play without worring about counter backup. IMHO, this card is going to be outstanding. Of course, being a blue player, I'm biased.



It costs you a card. It is situational. I think it's a fun card, but it's definately not broken. And notice, you can't play something hugely expensive unless you've already played something hugely expensive, which doesn't equal to mana acceleration in my books.

__________________
Preacher, The Defender of Type 1 and Strange Decks, The Keeper of the Moxen and the Guardian of the Traditions of Casual Play.
There are no bad cards. There are only good ones, interesting ones and challenging ones.
Trade me your Gaea's Lieges, especially BB ones!

 
Trnothr
Member
posted January 25, 2002 11:30 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trnothr Click Here to Email Trnothr Click to send Trnothr an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
So tell me what I'm doing wrong, don't just yell out "article sucks!" and run off.
I'd appreciate some info on why this sucks.


I didn't say your article is bad, did I? I merely said that your way of looking at the cards is horrible. But on second thoughts, your article actually isn't very good. You got spelling and grammar going swell, but by what basis did you pick exactly THOSE cards for review? You're not offering very much insight to them either, and are often plain wrong when evaluating them. (HINT: If you're not sure, don't say anything when you're supposed to give professional feel)

It would be waste of my time to correct everything you got wrong, and that's why my previous reply was short.

Feeling happier?

__________________
Am I the one you think I am, or just the one you didn't expect?


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Trnothr on January 25, 2002]

 
AngryPheldagrif
Member
posted January 25, 2002 02:03 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AngryPheldagrif Click Here to Email AngryPheldagrif Send a private message to AngryPheldagrif Click to send AngryPheldagrif an Instant MessageVisit AngryPheldagrif's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by iakae:
[B]One comment on this. Carrion Rats is, hands down, inferior to Jackal Pup, and the drawback for the Rats is most definitely harsher. Yes, you take damage when the Pup does, but the entire point is that a Pup deals a guaranteed two damage. That is why, as a 2/1 for one, the Pup is completely unmatched in Extended as the most efficient aggressive creature available.
B]

You're kidding, right? Jackal is decent if you get it out 1st turn, but all it does is 2 a turn. It may be fine for sligh, but I'll take Raging Goblins and Ball Lightnings over it anyday, and that's just red. Greens Llanowar Elves, Pouncing Jaguars, Albino Trolls, and Wild Dogs will just eat it for dinner. It may be better than Carrion Rats, but in my opinion, neither of them is broken anyways.
'nuff said.
Peace out.

__________________
Give your cards to the Pheldagrif.
-So sayeth the Bey

 
iakae
Banned
posted January 25, 2002 02:43 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iakae Click Here to Email iakae Send a private message to iakae Click to send iakae an Instant MessageVisit iakae's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AngryPheldagrif:
You're kidding, right? Jackal is decent if you get it out 1st turn, but all it does is 2 a turn. It may be fine for sligh, but I'll take Raging Goblins and Ball Lightnings over it anyday, and that's just red. Greens Llanowar Elves, Pouncing Jaguars, Albino Trolls, and Wild Dogs will just eat it for dinner. It may be better than Carrion Rats, but in my opinion, neither of them is broken anyways.
'nuff said.
Peace out.



Um, am I the only one noticing that Ball Lightning, Raging Goblin, Llanowar Elves, and Albino Troll aren't 2/1s for one mana?

Jackal Pup is the definition of aggression. The only 2/1 in Magic that is better is Savannah Lion, which no longer exists in Extended. You actually have to go through opposing defenses with Pouncing Jaguar (which stunts mana growth for a turn) and Wild Dogs (which shifts control, along with Ghazban Ogre, making it unstable in many matches), while you go through the hole your burn creates with Jackal Pup. Notice how Jackal Pup actually makes consistant appearances in Extended Top Eights, while its green equivalents don't.

And the fact that you actually suggested that Raging Goblin is better than Jackal Pup killed any credibility that your argument would have with me anyway. Have you even taken a look at the current Extended environment? The only even comparable creature to the Pup right now is Mogg Fanatic, but that serves a different function than the Pup.

Hell, if we're just guessing creatures here, Morphling is better than Jackal Pup; does that count by your standards? Or is Cloud Sprite a better comparison? Oh, wait, Scarred Puma, there we go.

So no, I'm not kidding, because I know what I'm talking about.

And NO creature, no matter how good it is, is broken. That's including the omnipotent Morphling.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by iakae on January 25, 2002]

 
AngryPheldagrif
Member
posted January 25, 2002 07:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AngryPheldagrif Click Here to Email AngryPheldagrif Send a private message to AngryPheldagrif Click to send AngryPheldagrif an Instant MessageVisit AngryPheldagrif's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by iakae:
Um, am I the only one noticing that Ball Lightning, Raging Goblin, Llanowar Elves, and Albino Troll aren't 2/1s for one mana?

Jackal Pup is the definition of aggression. The only 2/1 in Magic that is better is Savannah Lion, which no longer exists in Extended. You actually have to go through opposing defenses with Pouncing Jaguar (which stunts mana growth for a turn) and Wild Dogs (which shifts control, along with Ghazban Ogre, making it unstable in many matches), while you go through the hole your burn creates with Jackal Pup. Notice how Jackal Pup actually makes consistant appearances in Extended Top Eights, while its green equivalents don't.

And the fact that you actually suggested that Raging Goblin is better than Jackal Pup killed any credibility that your argument would have with me anyway. Have you even taken a look at the current Extended environment? The only even comparable creature to the Pup right now is Mogg Fanatic, but that serves a different function than the Pup.

Hell, if we're just guessing creatures here, Morphling is better than Jackal Pup; does that count by your standards? Or is Cloud Sprite a better comparison? Oh, wait, Scarred Puma, there we go.

So no, I'm not kidding, because I know what I'm talking about.

And [b]NO creature, no matter how good it is, is broken. That's including the omnipotent Morphling.[/B]



Several points have I to make...

#1: Actually, reviewing the top Eight for three recent Extended tourneys, I couldn't help but notice that 4 out of the top 8 were playing with Jackal Pup. They placed 8th, 7th, 6th, and 5th. Out of the top 4, however, the 4th and 2nd place people were both playing with Pouncing Jaguars and Wild Dogs. This quite clearly says something. I have played both Sligh and R/G beatdown before and wouldn't be caught dead playing Jackal Pup. I'm getting angry now so I think I'll grab a beer and go to bed.
Good Night.

__________________
Give your cards to the Pheldagrif.
-So sayeth the Bey

 
juzamdjinn2
Member
posted January 25, 2002 08:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for juzamdjinn2 Click Here to Email juzamdjinn2 Send a private message to juzamdjinn2 Click to send juzamdjinn2 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Jackal Pup is better than albino troll, pouncing jaguar, and raging goblin(UGH). However, the main reason jackal pup and company make more appearances is the cards they have to back them up. Red has Price of Progress, incinerate, pyroblast, fireblast, and countless other burn spells. Green has........Creatures and pump(which is very situational). Also, a single deed or keg does not ruin sligh's day, while it does for stompy. The decks are also very different in another way, Sligh's game plan is to get a few efficient creatures out and burn everything out of their way. Stompy's is: Throw everything I have at you to try to kill you quickly(meaning it almost has to overextend to win any games). And, moving back to the original topic, carrion rats really sucks IMO. All one would have to do is block it with say, llanowar elves, and prevent the damage. So you paid a black mana to remove a card in his graveyard from the game.....Wow. Just use cremate. And another word of advice, never play echo creatures in an aggro deck, the reason being, one way to beat most decks is gaining a lot of tempo in the early game. Its not easy to do that when you play an albino troll and pay the echo, only to have it incinerated or swordsed(4 mana:1-2 mana).
 
Trnothr
Member
posted January 25, 2002 08:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trnothr Click Here to Email Trnothr Send a private message to Trnothr Click to send Trnothr an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AngryPheldagrif:

Several points have I to make...

#1: Actually, reviewing the top Eight for three recent Extended tourneys, I couldn't help but notice that 4 out of the top 8 were playing with Jackal Pup. They placed 8th, 7th, 6th, and 5th. Out of the top 4, however, the 4th and 2nd place people were both playing with Pouncing Jaguars and Wild Dogs. This quite clearly says something. I have played both Sligh and R/G beatdown before and wouldn't be caught dead playing Jackal Pup. I'm getting angry now so I think I'll grab a beer and go to bed.
Good Night.



Haha... "Recent tourneys"? Just WHERE?? Those statements were so clearly lies it's not even funny.

Oh, and did you notice that you said about Jackal Pup "It does only 2 damage per turn" and then said that you'd take Raging Goblin over it any day. Am I the only one seeing the contradiction here? The first time Pup attacks, it has done two damage. Raging Goblin has done the same amount. Except it will keep doing half the amount Pup does.

__________________
Am I the one you think I am, or just the one you didn't expect?

 
Vegeta2711
Member
posted January 25, 2002 08:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegeta2711 Click Here to Email Vegeta2711 Send a private message to Vegeta2711 Click to send Vegeta2711 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
"They placed 8th, 7th, 6th, and 5th. Out of the top 4, however, the 4th and 2nd place people were both playing with Pouncing Jaguars and Wild Dogs. "
Your either bull****ting, or you are playing some place where stompy is played. So that means.... everyone plays really crappy decks. Ok here's a clue, look around the net at major tourneys and tell me how many Jaguars and Dogs are played. Then go look at how many pups are played. Then look at place standings.

Oh and just while I'm here, several doesn't mean 1.

Vegeta2711

__________________
"You won't escape my Wrath!(of God)"
"The clock ticks life away, it's so unreal."
"I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it didn't even matter. I had to fall to lose it all, but in the end it doesn't even matter."
Linkin Park- In the End

 
AngryPheldagrif
Member
posted January 25, 2002 08:36 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AngryPheldagrif Click Here to Email AngryPheldagrif Send a private message to AngryPheldagrif Click to send AngryPheldagrif an Instant MessageVisit AngryPheldagrif's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
To juzamdjinn2: Red has burn to back up the Pups. So what; use another burn spell instead. So they can Incinerate or Swords a Troll. They can Lightning Bolt the Jackal Pup, Boom. If you don't know why green stompy is good, then you obviously do not play against them.
To everyone else: I got the listings off of several M:tG sites including Pojo and Wizards.
PS. This is an article about Torment, can we just get back to the topic?

__________________
Give your cards to the Pheldagrif.
-So sayeth the Bey

 
Trnothr
Member
posted January 25, 2002 09:07 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trnothr Click Here to Email Trnothr Send a private message to Trnothr Click to send Trnothr an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Pheldagrif, from what year that stuff you've read is?

__________________
Am I the one you think I am, or just the one you didn't expect?

 
Magic1264
Member
posted January 25, 2002 09:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magic1264 Click Here to Email Magic1264 Send a private message to Magic1264 Click to send Magic1264 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AngryPheldagrif:
To juzamdjinn2: Red has burn to back up the Pups. So what; use another burn spell instead. So they can Incinerate or Swords a Troll. They can Lightning Bolt the Jackal Pup, Boom. If you don't know why green stompy is good, then you obviously do not play against them.


Yeah, we are all playing lightning bolts in extended.

Stompy is teir 2 at best now. I personally think stompy was never good in the first place. Well, i guess it would be good if each game started with 15 life, not 20. Most deck can usually stablize from stompy after their 4-5 turn onslaught.

As for the review:

1st: I would have left Trnothr to his first opinion. He was obviously too tired to rip your review to pieces.

2nd: Your review sucks(look at 3rd for backup)

3rd: Some of your comments on cards were really off the wall:

quote:

Teroh's Vanguard
U, Creature - Nomad, 3W, 2/3
You may play Teroh's Vanguard any time you could play
an instant.
Threshold - When Teroh's Vanguard comes into play,
creatures you control gain protection from black until
end of turn.

Another black-hoser. It can be Sleighted with Alter Reality as
well, and the instant play allows it to nullify creature-kill spells
like Dark Banishing or Inferno. It also can make your creatures
unblockable. It’s not even a rare


who in the heck uses either of those "kill" cards? This is a very inefficient creature for someone who tried to keep their mind on the type 2 envirement. There aren't many decks that have creature standoff with huge armies on either side.

In fact, most of the cards refered to exteneded and type 1 counterparts or how it will fit in that envirment.

4th: Word of Advice, actually compete in real T2 tournies before you start doing reviews on sets that will affect this envirment.

__________________
Magic1264@hotmail.com

Famous Quote:

"Life is like a box of chocolates... A worthless, good for nothing gift that nobody asks for in the first place.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Magic1264 on January 25, 2002]

 
Trelocke
Member
posted January 25, 2002 11:54 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trelocke Click Here to Email Trelocke Send a private message to Trelocke Click to send Trelocke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Preacher:
It costs you a card. It is situational. I think it's a fun card, but it's definately not broken. And notice, you can't play something hugely expensive unless you've already played something hugely expensive, which doesn't equal to mana acceleration in my books.

Hmmm, Wrath of God is situational, what's your point? And by mana acceleration, I'm talking, "Look, I'll play an Island my first turn, then play Retraced Image, and hey, look, I'll put another Island into play." That's mana acceleration.

This card is highly underrated, IMHO, but as I said earlier, I'm biased. I know I'm going to find room for four in my decks, the same way most green players find room for four BoP in their decks. No, I'm not equating it with BoP, but being able to get your counter mana into play a turn early is incredible. The fact that it allows you to put ANY permenant into play is just a late game bonus.

If you pick up any at the Pre-Release, lmk, I'll trade ya for 'um.

__________________
I never said I don't
believe in God. I just
happen to believe he's
an a-hole.

 
Boogers
Banned
posted January 27, 2002 12:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Boogers Click Here to Email Boogers Send a private message to Boogers Click to send Boogers an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Since when has blue needed speed?

Retracted image is not broken. Reason? It's blue and blue would much rather play a card that nets them card advantage. No other explanation needed.

__________________
"Where are you Jebus??"
-Homer Simpson

 
Trelocke
Member
posted January 28, 2002 12:47 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trelocke Click Here to Email Trelocke Send a private message to Trelocke Click to send Trelocke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Needed? I never said it needed speed. Blue isn't always about card advantage, it can just as often be about tempo advantage, which Retraced Image can most definately bring.

You're right though, broken it is not. That was a bad choice of wording in my excitement about this card. It's not going to be replacing Fact or Fiction in Blue decks, but mark my words, it will see more play then most are expecting. If nothing else, I will find a way to abuse it.

__________________
I never said I don't
believe in God. I just
happen to believe he's
an a-hole.

 

All times are PDT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic | Make Feature Article
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | MOTL Home Page | Privacy Statement & TOS

© 1996-2012 Magic Online Trading League

Powered by Infopop © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47e