__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

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Originally posted by chaos021:
I find that take on Iran interesting. They have the money and weapons and seem to building a sphere of influence. Feels much more of a cause for concern than anything North Korea is doing. Not gonna lie though. Kim Jong-Un is scary crazy. It just seems like the only folks feeling his "crazy" are his own people. Why hasn't someone just tossed him out of a window?

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Originally posted by Gawain:

What I'm really interested by right now is the situation in Syria and elsewhere, with the Kurds essentially pressing a successful campaign against ISIS. Seems to me that there has been no shortage of powers in the region interested in keeping the Kurds suppressed for decades now, and here comes ISIS and the only guys who seem able to do much about them are the Kurds!

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The region seems to be re-drawing its boundaries along more natural lines, and one of those lines is a state belonging to the Kurds. I expect that a big part of why they've been successful is that Kurdish people have something to fight for, whereas Iraqis feel betrayed by their own government (which disbanded the militias that were so effective in re-taking Iraq with American troops a few years ago, to say nothing of Maliki trying to form a government despite losing the election--and doing so with full US backing.) and Syrians have no reason to help Assad's government (which is killing them with WMDs).

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Originally posted by Gawain:
Basically, it's because Iran is not run by crazy people (just intensely dogmatic), they don't have any reason to be truly desperate right now, and they are not really all that close to "having the bomb," regardless of what mass media outlets might proclaim to the contrary.

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I completely agree. Despite the propaganda we're fed, Iran is not a failed-state, and it isn't run by suicidal maniacs and terrorists. They seem to want to become a regional power, a kind of counterweight to Israel. So they're trying very hard to extend their sphere of influence (which is why Israel is flipping its lid). But nothing more.

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Ha ha, I wish I got more news than just snippets of NPR while cleaning the barn and whatever I pick up on Facebook, but it does make new developments somewhat more interesting!

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Looks to me like you get more than enough!

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

RIP Ari

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
The region seems to be re-drawing its boundaries along more natural lines, and one of those lines is a state belonging to the Kurds. I expect that a big part of why they've been successful is that Kurdish people have something to fight for, whereas Iraqis feel betrayed by their own government (which disbanded the militias that were so effective in re-taking Iraq with American troops a few years ago, to say nothing of Maliki trying to form a government despite losing the election--and doing so with full US backing.) and Syrians have no reason to help Assad's government (which is killing them with WMDs).

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"More natural lines," meaning, cultural lines and the geographic regions they have traditionally occupied as cultures, as opposed to what was mapped out in the creation of Iraq and post-Ottoman Turkey? Because I tend to agree, and that's why I think it's really interesting. I'm actually pulling for the Kurds, plus I think it's the kurdish women just as much as the men who are sticking it to ISIS

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I completely agree. Despite the propaganda we're fed, Iran is not a failed-state, and it isn't run by suicidal maniacs and terrorists. They seem to want to become a regional power, a kind of counterweight to Israel. So they're trying very hard to extend their sphere of influence (which is why Israel is flipping its lid). But nothing more.

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Actually, we may be more in agreement than you think, and I may have just worded my original position incorrectly. Now, this may sound insane, but I don't actually mind the notion of Iran with nukes. Anymore than I mind the notion of anybody having them, anyway; I really wish the world existed free of the threat of nuclear war entirely. Since it doesn't however, I really don't necessarily think that countries who DO have nuclear technology have the right to tell countries who DON'T that they can't have it, not if they are not simultaneously scaling back use of nuclear power and weapons as well anyway. I don't specifically FEAR a nuclear Iran either, because indeed they are not a failed state, therefore they have something to lose if they were to use a nuke, and much to gain by using nuclear technology responsibly. I merely meant to point out that most of what Westerners believe about Iran is propaganda, what we should really be doing is examining why our leaders want us to feel the way we do about Iran, instead of meddling in their ability to advance themselves as a nation. It's all about Israel though, and lord knows if I start going off about that sacred cow somebody will call me an anti-Semite so I better can it right there :P

And that gets me back to North Korea....they're like that kid Jeremy in that Pearl Jam song, and they're gonna speak in class one day and nobody is gonna like it. I mean, ya know, if any nation does something of the sort anyway. And China? Well, it would suit Chinese temperament to conquer the world economically instead of doing it with their military, but a strong economy can fund a strong military, so, I guess we'll see where they go!

I mean I worry about these things, but not unduly so, and more I just think it's fascinating.

EDIT

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Originally posted by Gawain:

Ha ha I just realized you said, "I completely agree," not, "I completely disagree." HA! Gotta read a little more closely eh? I will leave everything I wrote though because I think it's relevant to clarify my position anyway :P

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Heh. I admit, I was a titch confused and figured I must have just miscommunicated. FWIW, I still pretty much agree entirely.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

RIP Ari

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:

Heh. I admit, I was a titch confused and figured I must have just miscommunicated. FWIW, I still pretty much agree entirely.

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It's worth a good deal! I take corroboration from a personage such as yourself as a sign I'm not addlepated. Mostly not addlepated. Heh.

But seriously, and this is where most people raise an eyebrow at me, what I really think the world needs is an end to Nationalism. Not, ya know, like all those charming little colloquial peculiarities that make us all unique....those are fine, and they'll happen anyway because people are people. I'm talking about anything that allows "us" to marginalize "them." I mean I realize that's requires addressing things on a much more nuanced and context-specific basis because "us" and "them" is entrenched in our genes and pervades all strata of all societies, but Nationalism really allows for the wholesale industrialization of this instinct and it's a perversion on a scale large enough to alter the nature of our planet. There is no "us" and "them" at this point, there is just us. We need to be thinking globally, ending world hunger because it's an utterly unnecessary disgrace, transitioning to sustainable energy sources because climate science because duh, and focusing on feeding, housing, and educating the world's masses so they'll stop breeding like effin' rabbits DEAR LORD.

Any of you ever read Ishmael?

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and educating the world's masses so they'll stop breeding like effin' rabbits

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Amen to that!

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Originally posted by Gawain:
There is no "us" and "them" at this point, there is just us.

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Unfortunately the masses think/feel otherwise. At least those who are in power.

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We need to be thinking globally,

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Yep.

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ending world hunger because it's an utterly unnecessary disgrace,

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Not gonna happen. See the first line I quoted from you. Also, farmland will become scarce, meaning they will cut even more trees for farmland, meaning more carbondioxide in the air and less oxygen. It will take some time, but we'll get there. Then our planet is getting payback time, one way or the other.

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transitioning to sustainable energy sources because climate science because duh,

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Wholeheartedly agree. Now to convince the Middle East and those oil bosses and we'll be fine! I'm sure they'll co-operate finding another source of energy of which they aren't the supplier and thus not getting any revenue out of it.
Sadly I believe they'll stop at nothing to keep the world on fossil fuels for as long as they can. The race for the oil fields beneath the North Pole has already begun. I fear for what will happen there..

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Any of you ever read Ishmael?

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But no, I haven't. Who is he?

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

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Originally posted by AEther Storm:

Unfortunately the masses think/feel otherwise. At least those who are in power.

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Oh, don't I know it. But "divided we fall," as the old saying goes, and at this point the "we" is the entire human race. Then again, you can't even get people who are countrymen to have empathy for one another so, ya know, long way to go.

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Not gonna happen. See the first line I quoted from you. Also, farmland will become scarce, meaning they will cut even more trees for farmland, meaning more carbondioxide in the air and less oxygen. It will take some time, but we'll get there. Then our planet is getting payback time, one way or the other.

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Now, this is where I think innovation can actually take us pretty far. It's true that with the current system, we cannot possibly feed the future's masses; it's also true that there is enough food in the world today to feed today's population, while we sort out a new system. To me, that looks like 3-D printing reconstituted insect protein meals. Like, the protein is a powder, and then you simply add water and spices and the 3-D printer can "replicate" a bug steak for you or what have you. Insects actually require less food to reach maturation than they produce when mature and ready to eat, so it's an extremely efficient protein source.

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Wholeheartedly agree. Now to convince the Middle East and those oil bosses and we'll be fine! I'm sure they'll co-operate finding another source of energy of which they aren't the supplier and thus not getting any revenue out of it.
Sadly I believe they'll stop at nothing to keep the world on fossil fuels for as long as they can. The race for the oil fields beneath the North Pole has already begun. I fear for what will happen there..

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I mean I basically agree with you, unfortunately. China is working on deal with Ecuador right now to buy 1/3 of it's pristine Amazon rainforest for oil development. It boggles the mind that people are so short-sighted and profit-driven that they don't even realize that destroying our environment means there will be no-one around to BUY the damned oil, but hey, that's the next generation's problem huh? Yeah, I hear you, but some people in some places are getting the hint and that's a start. It's just a bummer because even if oil-hungry American finally weans itself from the petroleum teat, China is just gonna pick up where we left off and take its turn pummeling the ozone, and at four times the population, well.....yeah. That'll be bad.

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Gesundheit!

But no, I haven't. Who is he?

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Ha ha, "he" is a book actually, called Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn. It's sort of hard to explain but basically it sort of explains the world today, how we got here, and starts getting you thinking about what we could do about it. It's done as a fiction though, and the story itself is just remarkable, to say nothing of how thought provoking it really is. Gets you thinking about our culture (the culture of the world, in fact) is inherently destructive in its approach, how it's totally unnecessary, and why. Short read, I would recommend it for anyone.

Regarding the Democrats, I can imagine Hillary becoming the candidate. Though you guys (Americans, that is) are probably better informed than I am, she seems like a solid contender.

And here it comes, I have got to post this as I can't fathom the thought, HOW ON EARTH is it possible that, after 8!! years of G.W. Bush (remember, that guy that even got RE-elected somehow, which is arguably the greatest stunt in political history), I got the news that for the Republican side Mr. Trump has more than 61% support? And all the others got either 10% or less?

Honestly, everyone can see that the guy is nuts beyond all things! G.W. Bush can't hold a candle to this guy.

Thus, for me, either everyone supporting the guy is bought or nuts themselves. Seriously, is there no other candidate the Republicans can offer? Those guys call themselves serious politicians?

Sometimes I really, really wonder about a part of the American people.

One can argue over the use that Obama had the last 8 years. There will always be pro's and cons. I like the guy. He's had the balls to set up tough bills, like Healthcare. Scuffled a bit with the Gun lobby I believe.

I know that Europe is in a dismal state at the moment, don't get me started. I just want to understand how it's possible that such a person becomes 1 of 2 people to run for president of one of the most important countries in the world.

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

That is why voting record is not much of an issue for elections (bernie sanders is a notable exception). Basically, in our system for people to remain bought in to the idea that there is a such thing as ideals in politics often times votes seem to be split and congress can consistently blame the other party for problems. In a controversial bill here in the US, the majority leader will make sure that they have enough votes to pass it (both dems and republicans) then go to the others and specifically ask them to vote against such a bill, usually they try their best to line these up with constituents such that they still seem to be doing what is desired by the people. The bill that All/Most of the politicians wanted but perhaps 50% or less of the people wanted will pass (sometimes with a vast majority of the vote).

So a lot of people are completely disenfranchised with the system. Hillary represents that system. Any Republican Politician who is part of this system will feign conservative values because their electorate tends to have the conservatives views and are generally the most likely to say "hey WTF are you doing with this money?" Naturally Republicans are going to take the "fall" for what is becoming an increasingly Top Down system. That is to say, of course Senators like Ted Cruz are going to tout conservative values even though they themselves don't believe in any of that crap.

Why? Because American values (like it or not) are based off of working and achieving for success. Maybe in another country, constant handouts work. Here they just entrench people. Lawless behavior and "everyone else does, why not me" attitude make America not seem so great. Accomplishments are not celebrated. Instead we celebrate crap here that is given to you or you are born with. Black History Month, LGBT pride...Meanwhile we have this odd 1%er mentality that everyone who is successful must have stomped on the little guy. I think that actually comes from Europe more than the states. Lets face it, if commerce and free enterprise can't get you elevated in society...then only stealing and politics will.

So, you celebrate our Healthcare as some sort of achievement, while most Americans paying into it, see it as an utter failure. Costs are still sky high and no one is held accountable to maintain them.

Immigration is the same way. I live in a "Sanctuary City". What that actually means is that I live where American values are not celebrated. People here refuse outright to learn English. They fly Mexican flags in their lawns. It's disgraceful and with most pandering, it is actually self-defeating.

A lot of what Trump has to say actually isn't that crazy. That's my main problem with him and the Republicrats. What should be legitimate dialogue about problems facing America is just more news about that douche. And any conservative free-thinking person who might agree with some of what he says, just gets thrown into his camp.

So, since Hilary Clinton represents pretty much everything that a conservative person loathes, and because we live in a single party system and we have been presented with a false dichotomy; since the news (one party also) effectively removed all other candidates from the stage, there is an almost obligation to vote for Trump, who represents basically the opposite of Clinton.

Yes a sorry state for America and American values.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
My question Nicks, based on your post (which was a great read BTW), is why then did the Republican party allow Trump to even be involved? Couldn't they have shut him out, and dismissed him as the media circus he obviously is?

You seem to be saying he is an outsider to the group of "Republicrats". Or am I misunderstanding?

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I think American politics is more of a supply/demand issue. Conservatives demand dialogue about our values and the degradation thereof. The Republicarats supply it.

Why he is as popular as he is even though the average American sees through his BS, is because we are so used to being forced to choose the lesser of two evils (and Hilary Clinton is evil incarnate) that it is easy for media to spin him up. In magic terms, in a Blue dominated field of control, sometimes aggro wins.

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Originally posted by AEther Storm:
So we're getting some periodic updates about the president-candidates and everyone running for the position of the side.

Regarding the Democrats, I can imagine Hillary becoming the candidate. Though you guys (Americans, that is) are probably better informed than I am, she seems like a solid contender.

And here it comes, I have got to post this as I can't fathom the thought, HOW ON EARTH is it possible that, after 8!! years of G.W. Bush (remember, that guy that even got RE-elected somehow, which is arguably the greatest stunt in political history), I got the news that for the Republican side Mr. Trump has more than 61% support? And all the others got either 10% or less?

Honestly, everyone can see that the guy is nuts beyond all things! G.W. Bush can't hold a candle to this guy.

Thus, for me, either everyone supporting the guy is bought or nuts themselves. Seriously, is there no other candidate the Republicans can offer? Those guys call themselves serious politicians?

Sometimes I really, really wonder about a part of the American people.

One can argue over the use that Obama had the last 8 years. There will always be pro's and cons. I like the guy. He's had the balls to set up tough bills, like Healthcare. Scuffled a bit with the Gun lobby I believe.

I know that Europe is in a dismal state at the moment, don't get me started. I just want to understand how it's possible that such a person becomes 1 of 2 people to run for president of one of the most important countries in the world.

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Trump is getting support because a large number of conservatives are so obsessed with the "political outsider" (which Trump is) that they'll jump on the bandwagon of the first outsider that comes along and says what they want to hear. What his supporters don't realize is that Trump's past screams liberal. He's pro universal healthcare, he's pro choice, he's supported democrat candidates in the past (including Hillary in 08), and has donated thousands to democratic candidates and left leaning organizations.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
My question Nicks, based on your post (which was a great read BTW), is why then did the Republican party allow Trump to even be involved? Couldn't they have shut him out, and dismissed him as the media circus he obviously is?

You seem to be saying he is an outsider to the group of "Republicrats". Or am I misunderstanding?

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They tried, and have been trying. It isn't working, because our government is utterly broken, and people are ****ed.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:

But conservatives really don't have any horse in the race, almost by definition. We must be FORCED to act, rather than act on a whim like Liberals would. An excerpt from our own Declaration of Independence: "and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed"

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That quote sounds like the context involves something like "enough is enough". You British have found the last straw. Or something like that.

I really don't know too much about politics in general. I try to keep up with it, but there's a lot of BS between what's going on and what you hear about, so it's tough. Or it seems tough I guess. I just know that from when I was going to college, which was a little before Obama came in, my ideas have changed on how things should be. It seemed to be a logical progression looking back, but at this point I have found Democrats, and what they're on about ranging from misguided to childish.

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Originally posted by paragondave:
Trump is dominating because America is stupid. Just ask anyone not from America.

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You and I have disagreed on pretty much everything since I have been here on MOTL, so I'll just add this to the list

Having traveled to 26 countries in various capacities, including working for the Department of State and living abroad...I am convinced that America is way awesome and the media just plays it up as being worse (and in worse shape) than it really is.

People come in droves to be here for the opportunity and freedoms that we represent. Freedoms that were not free by an stretch. I love and respect my wife's home country and would die there if I get the opportunity, but America is where I want to live. It's a no brainer.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
You and I have disagreed on pretty much everything since I have been here on MOTL, so I'll just add this to the list

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then I'm sure a Trump presidency is music to your ears.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:

People come in droves to be here for the opportunity and freedoms that we represent.

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By his own words, that will absolutely change if Trump is president.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:

As I said earlier, there actually is a lot of what Trump has said that is just common sense.

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Please enlighten me. Most of what I've heard him say, with my own ears is harmful hateful rhetoric that is diametrically opposed to everything America is supposedly about. But even a broke clock is right twice a day. I don't disagree with 100% of what he says, actually only about 95%

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:

To say an American is stupid for voting for him is likely an overstatement. Probably misguided would be a better choice of a word for the phenomenon.

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I am not known for my tact. You say misguided, I say stupid. Both are acceptable adjectives to me.

But with regard to ideas that I think are fair game that Trump has proposed (for the sake of dialogue): Muslims from certain nations should not be allowed visas to this country without first establishing better vetting. We aren't getting this one right...we need to stop, assess, and move forward. Not see if we can fix it on the fly.

As a person who has traveled to a few of those countries let me be the first to say that Muslim countries don't have their **** together. Almost by definition, seeing as how their messed up (using your word, stupid) religion is directly related to their government. I once got recruited by the CEO of a company working in Saudi Arabia with almost no background info (only because he had heard of my company) simply because the people working for him were so woefully incompetent that almost ANYONE from outside of the region was seen as better. Oh and we plan to try to give them (edit: Muslims generally, not Saudis) more nuclear power.

Anyone from some of those countries that sees us as stupid, I'll call that a compliment.

Our neighbors to the south? Build the wall? While that is ludicrous, raising NAFTA back to the forefront and working to keep jobs in America is something that I guess only stupid Americans believe in?

And amnesty for lawbreakers? No, deportation for law breakers. Plain and simple. Canada once denied me access to their soil, because a passenger of my car had a misdemeanor theft on his record. Did we find an alternate route in? Hell no we didn't. We followed the law.

As far as top economists being elevated to positions of economic authority in the USA. Doesn't sound crazy to me. Someone has to do those jobs. I certainly don't want you or I doing it.

Let's talk healthcare. Obamacare sucks. It's a money grab for insurance companies and hospitals. Oh and I get to pay MORE for less coverage. Add that to my insane tax bill. Oh and don't get me started on Hilary Clinton and healthcare. I'm so glad that big pharma got so many breaks through the years leading up to now. Thanks Direct to Consumer advertising. I'm sure since you think that Americans are stupid, that we can agree on a second thing. That was a misguided call.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
Well as far as Trump being president, we agree on one thing officially.

But with regard to ideas that I think are fair game that Trump has proposed (for the sake of dialogue): Muslims from certain nations should not be allowed visas to this country without first establishing better vetting. We aren't getting this one right...we need to stop, assess, and move forward. Not see if we can fix it on the fly.

As a person who has traveled to a few of those countries let me be the first to say that Muslim countries don't have their **** together. Almost by definition, seeing as how their messed up (using your word, stupid) religion is directly related to their government. I once got recruited by the CEO of a company working in Saudi Arabia with almost no background info (only because he had heard of my company) simply because the people working for him were so woefully incompetent that almost ANYONE from outside of the region was seen as better. Oh and we plan to try to give them (edit: Muslims generally, not Saudis) more nuclear power.

Anyone from some of those countries that sees us as stupid, I'll call that a compliment.

Our neighbors to the south? Build the wall? While that is ludicrous, raising NAFTA back to the forefront and working to keep jobs in America is something that I guess only stupid Americans believe in?

And amnesty for lawbreakers? No, deportation for law breakers. Plain and simple. Canada once denied me access to their soil, because a passenger of my car had a misdemeanor theft on his record. Did we find an alternate route in? Hell no we didn't. We followed the law.

As far as top economists being elevated to positions of economic authority in the USA. Doesn't sound crazy to me. Someone has to do those jobs. I certainly don't want you or I doing it.

Let's talk healthcare. Obamacare sucks. It's a money grab for insurance companies and hospitals. Oh and I get to pay MORE for less coverage. Add that to my insane tax bill. Oh and don't get me started on Hilary Clinton and healthcare. I'm so glad that big pharma got so many breaks through the years leading up to now. Thanks Direct to Consumer advertising. I'm sure since you think that Americans are stupid, that we can agree on a second thing. That was a misguided call.

Again, I wouldn't vote for him. I actually would be forced to give my vote to Bernie Sanders if a gun was to my head today. It's America so not likely.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
But with regard to ideas that I think are fair game that Trump has proposed (for the sake of dialogue): Muslims from certain nations should not be allowed visas to this country without first establishing better vetting. We aren't getting this one right...we need to stop, assess, and move forward. Not see if we can fix it on the fly.

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How would you even determine if someone is a Muslim (or a Communist, a Democrat or a whatever)? It sounds like you want the impossible or the NSA in everyone's living room.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

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Originally posted by paragondave:
It is truly amazing how much your opinion would change if you were born in a muslim country or Mexico instead of this great republic. There is so much fail in your statement above. But hey, I love to be entertained so, by all means...continue. I do love to hear educated people justify racist, homophobic or otherwise entitled opinions. lol

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Where was my racist opinion? Where was my homophobic opinion? Where was my entitled opinion? Since you threw it out there, lets pick the first one.

Racism. America is without a doubt the least racist country that I have ever been to. Yet, conservatives (less racist than liberals generally speaking) have to hear about how racist we are? Any chance you care to compare racism in the US to that in say, Saudi Arabia?

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
.. often times votes seem to be split and congress can consistently blame the other party for problems.

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Yes, I've always found that funny. Lets scream as loud as we can to the other guy instead of trying to come up with a joint solution

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That is to say, of course Senators like Ted Cruz are going to tout conservative values even though they themselves don't believe in any of that crap.

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Hypocracy?

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...Meanwhile we have this odd 1%er mentality that everyone who is successful must have stomped on the little guy. I think that actually comes from Europe more than the states. Lets face it, if commerce and free enterprise can't get you elevated in society...then only stealing and politics will.

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I'm sure that's what some people think around the world, not just Europe or the VS. And to think that only stealing and politics (which in some way is kind of the same for me) will 'elevate' you in society is kinda narrow, don't you think?

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So, you celebrate our Healthcare as some sort of achievement, while most Americans paying into it, see it as an utter failure. Costs are still sky high and no one is held accountable to maintain them.

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Yes. Because such a hard-to-understand-how-massive-it-is project will always launch with flaws, faults, errors and gaps. The thought was that everybody should be able to get health care, and that is a noble thought IMO. Lower incomes have access to health care whereas they literally 'paid the bill' before. I'm not familiar with the costs, but the system needs to be set up better. I believe it will get better over the years. Trail and error is what makes things better.

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Immigration is the same way. I live in a "Sanctuary City". What that actually means is that I live where American values are not celebrated. People here refuse outright to learn English. They fly Mexican flags in their lawns. It's disgraceful and with most pandering, it is actually self-defeating.

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I don't give 2 hoots about a flag, you can be proud of the country you were born in. But not learning the language (and it's not a hard language) I agree should be different. Immigrants who come to Holland don't always learn our language (and our language is pretty tough for the average immigrant) which annoys me, but as long as they speak English, that's fine for now.

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A lot of what Trump has to say actually isn't that crazy.

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I don't know his entire program. But we have a right-winged politician here which is popular by the anti-immigrant side of the population ( I won't call his name, PM me if you want to know ). The guy is smart, educated and talks clearly and understandable. A lot of his program is horrid, but there are points on which I wholeheartedly agree upon (heavier jail sentences / punishment for instance). Like paragondave said, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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..Honestly, I could go on a very long time about America and how badass it is. You don't even have to be born here to understand it..

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ROFL! Thanks for the good laugh

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..and it is also why we dearly defend gun rights here.

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Yes, good luck with that. I just heard today a guy killed 4 random people on the road to work. Yesterday it were 7 people. The day before that another 2 I believe. We get news of people getting shot at will almost every day, and it's all from the US. I don't believe you guys hear it anymore. In Holland, with 16 million people and rising, someone getting shot is frontpage news.

For the record, I am not against gun ownership. But people are morons, and those SELECT few who have the brains to own, operate and use such a thing are scarce. You play right in the hand of angry teenagers, would-be criminals and everyone else holding a grudge, are angry or whatever reason someone can find to go out and shoot someone. Why do you need a gun in the first place. But nvm, that discussion was done already.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
...because we are so used to being forced to choose the lesser of two evils (and Hilary Clinton is evil incarnate)...

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Yes I've heard that before, why is that actually?

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
If Trump gets the nom I'll be writing in Mickey Mouse/Donald Duck

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I'll hold you to that

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Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
Also, we're just happy to see someone out there who has a pair of balls.

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I can understand that, but you have to be realistic. Building the Great Wall of China along the Mexican border reminds me of the Iron Curtain. If the US build that wall, they are really in poor shape.

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Originally posted by paragondave:
Trump is dominating because America is stupid. Just ask anyone not from America.

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Sadly, a large part of the world really thinks this.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
...I am convinced that America is way awesome...

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OMG here I go again ROFL...

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...and the media just plays it up as being worse (and in worse shape) than it really is.

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I agree, but that is the role of the media. Don't believe everything you see/read eh?

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To say an American is stupid for voting for him is likely an overstatement. Probably misguided would be a more polite choice of a word for the phenomenon.

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fixed.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
As a person who has traveled to a few of those countries let me be the first to say that Muslim countries don't have their **** together.

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That is your point of view. Ask anyone in a Muslim country and they'll say the same thing about the Western countries.

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..Almost by definition, seeing as how their messed up (using your word, stupid) religion is directly related to their government..

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Nothing personal, but be careful man. I don't believe in any religion, but I respect anyone who chooses to do so. That is their choice. If they are alright with that, that is fine by me. Calling certain religions 'messed up' is your point of view and can be offensive to others.

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I once got recruited by the CEO of a company working in Saudi Arabia with almost no background info (only because he had heard of my company) simply because the people working for him were so woefully incompetent that almost ANYONE from outside of the region was seen as better.

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Ok, little joke: So anyone outside was better and they picked you? Sounds like they didn't do a background check (no offense)

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..Oh and we plan to try to give them (edit: Muslims generally, not Saudis) more nuclear power.

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Nuclear power in general is a bad idea.

Anyone from some of those countries that sees us as stupid, I'll call that a compliment.

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And amnesty for lawbreakers? No, deportation for law breakers.

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To a point I relate here. But does deportation count for US-citizens as well, or just immigrants? And to where would you deport them?

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..Canada once denied me access to their soil, because a passenger of my car had a misdemeanor theft on his record. Did we find an alternate route in? Hell no we didn't. We followed the law.

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Good for you. But I feel Canada pushes it a bit over the top. If you stole something once, that shouldn't be something to not access a country. Being a repeated offender or worse, rapist or killer, yes, that is different.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
..Racism. America is without a doubt the least racist country that I have ever been to...

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I'm not saying America is the most racist country in the world, I don't believe that. But I would like to know the countries you've been to that are more racist than America. Sure, in Saudi Arabia women have a hard time, I agree.

I'm glad I kicked new life in this thread, always a good one for discussion .
Note that I am not anti-US or anything. I just question things that come to my attention. I'm not saying Europe is better. We have major flaws sadly. I have my own ideas on how it should be, but that will either never be, or long after they burn me up.

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Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
Where was my racist opinion? Where was my homophobic opinion? Where was my entitled opinion? Since you threw it out there, lets pick the first one.

Racism. America is without a doubt the least racist country that I have ever been to. Yet, conservatives (less racist than liberals generally speaking) have to hear about how racist we are? Any chance you care to compare racism in the US to that in say, Saudi Arabia?

edit: we can get to the other two later.

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More fail in this post than in your last.

"Racism. America is without a doubt the least racist country that I have ever been to. Yet, conservatives (less racist than liberals generally speaking) have to hear about how racist we are? Any chance you care to compare racism in the US to that in say, Saudi Arabia?"

Belguim. In Belgium, they have their own variety of problems but the national language takes up more time than who should be allowed rights. While it has it's detractors, the UN is readily welcomed and celebrated there. When I fly to Europe, I usually fly into Belgium not only for it's geographical location in reference to the rest of Europe but also for the fact that my Flemish, French and Dutch are rusty but my English is understood by most there.

Conservatives are less racist than Liberals? uh...just no.

Compare American racism to Saudi Arabia's? Historically or just today? Regardless of your perspective, I'd say both are similarly deplorable.

However, I, see no value in comparing the racism in America to the racism in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has so many other social issues that are accepted and celebrated that to compare the 2 on just racism is infantile.

I have no interest in comparing any of the failures of this country with the failures of other countries/cultures. I'd prefer to export the successes (think clean drinking water technology, advances in medicine) that we have experienced to other countries (if wanted) and import the successes of other countries/cultures into America where we fail (think garbage resolution, renewable energy, healthcare). Try thinking from the perspective of someone not as entitled (or educated, employable or wealthy) as yourself. While some may remain willfully ignorant and uneducated, some have many more hurdles or obstacles to overcome to receive an advanced education than you or I. Does that make them less deserving?

Why would you hold up a country like Saudi Arabia, where half of their population are so subjugated that they are only slightly more valued than livestock to America? We at least in theory attempt to allow women and all citizens that are not convicted felons the right to vote. What point do you make? What value is presented in this comparison? Saying we are better than Saudi Arabia regarding racism is like saying we are better than China in combatting pollution. uh, duh. It doesn't mean we, as a nation are considering 'all men equal'. We aspire to but we fail miserably.

If you want to hold our nation to Saudi Arabia's standard, feel free. I will continue to expect us to be better tomorrow than we are today.

As to your question; 'Where was my racist opinion?

these first two paragraphs provide the answer;

"But with regard to ideas that I think are fair game that Trump has proposed (for the sake of dialogue): Muslims from certain nations should not be allowed visas to this country without first establishing better vetting. We aren't getting this one right...we need to stop, assess, and move forward. Not see if we can fix it on the fly.

As a person who has traveled to a few of those countries let me be the first to say that Muslim countries don't have their **** together. Almost by definition, seeing as how their messed up (using your word, stupid) religion is directly related to their government. I once got recruited by the CEO of a company working in Saudi Arabia with almost no background info (only because he had heard of my company) simply because the people working for him were so woefully incompetent that almost ANYONE from outside of the region was seen as better. Oh and we plan to try to give them (edit: Muslims generally, not Saudis) more nuclear power."

Lumping all muslims into this statement is not only racist but also generalizing and narcissistic as well. No racist person that I know, and unfortunately, there are a few, that has an IQ above 75 will admit that they are in fact racist.

I would agree that any country that is ruled by religious tenets is messed up in my opinion. Some conservatives here in America would have the same thing happen right here using christianity as the governing model. I am as disgusted by this concept as I am that many primarily muslim nations are ruled by their religious tenets. However, there are exceptions and there are also examples of muslim societies casting off this model or at least attempting to. I'd call that progress. Generalized statements about all muslims is the opposite of progress. As an atheist, I disagree with muslims on the same number of religions that I do with christians, approx 2499. We, muslims and I, and christians and I are at odds on only one.

America is a nation with a flawed past but it remains a SECULAR nation for the time being, as long as our constitution remains our guiding principal and the fact that we are currently still free to discuss our differing opinions and cast votes that reflect those opinions does make us a better society than many but that doesn't mean we are not at danger of eating our own tail and it doesn't mean we should not attempt to be a more just and fair societal model for the world. We still have a lot to learn. The kind of thinking that is being promoted by the right is what led us to being pulled involuntarily into WW2. The kind of thinking that is being promoted by the left is what led to the grand bargain and the most prosperous and productive period in American history.

If like you say, you've been to something like 26 countries, I would expect that some would be developed modern industrialized nations. I'd love to hear what you saw there that we do better here in America (building roads and infrastructure, providing public education, health care, natural resource harvesting, etc) and what we fail to do as well. If you have the inclination, I'd also like to know which countries those opinions refer to. Please don't bother to attempt to make your argument by comparing America to Saudi Arabia or Nigeria. That only implies to me that you think I am stupid and that would make any further discussion with you pointless for me.

As to your question; 'Where was my homophobic opinion?

I didn't mean to imply that you have one, I was just stating that I enjoy hearing educated people try to justify them. If you are not homophobic or if you don't have a homophobic opinion, then this does not apply to YOU. I find that most racist people are homophobic and usually turn out to have a sense of entitlement as well.

As for 'Where was my entitled opinion?'

Well, you were born in America, right? Is it a long shot to think that you are also maybe, white? If you have an opinion regarding those who were not born in America, who want to come here, just like your and my ancestors did, then your opinion comes from an entitled perspective. If you feel like a Mexican for example has less right to be in America than you, then that shoe fits quite nicely, in my opinion. If you live in say California, or Texas, or New Mexico for just 3 examples, then I'd say they have as much right to be here as you or I, if not more. The difference between you and I is that you feel justified in keeping them out and I welcome them all. Refugees in Syria? You say you work or worked for the State department? Where in our vetting process of those with refugee status do we fail? On that subject I am very interested in hearing what information you are carrying in your brain housing group. My information has it that we have the most stringent vetting process in the WORLD for those with refugee status. Do you know anyone who has navigated that process?

As I am terribly fond of reminding everyone...perspective is everything.

If you like, I will address each of your points separately but I really don't wish to continue to monopolize this conversation so...

your turn.

oh yeah;

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Originally posted by AEther Storm:
Like paragondave said, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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If you are going to quote me, get it right man! I said 'even a broke clock is right twice a day.'

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Originally posted by paragondave:
..but also for the fact that my Flemish, French and Dutch..

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Whoah, hold it, you speak Dutch?? I have got to hear/read that!

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Originally posted by paragondave:
..long post..

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Good read. I agree.

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