quote:

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Counterfeiting
coun⋅ter⋅feit
 
 /ˈkaʊntərˌfɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [koun-ter-fit]
–adjective
1. made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged: counterfeit dollar bills.
2. pretended; unreal: counterfeit grief.
–noun
3. an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery.

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Sounds like this fits the bill to me.

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
Sounds like this fits the bill to me.

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+1

If someone wants a proxy for a tournament/cube, they can make one. Having one sold on eBay is Colbert-worthy of having brass balls.

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Originally posted by Uthaedeol:
But it's not counterfeit.

I'd say rebacking is more like ruining the card by having someone alter it. This doesn't make the card a fake, but it is irreversably tampered with.

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Originally posted by Fiber13:

If someone wants a proxy for a tournament/cube, they can make one.

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meh, I just stick a CE one in the cube. Cutting one up is such a shame.

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quote:

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Counterfeiting
coun⋅ter⋅feit
 
 /ˈkaʊntərˌfɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [koun-ter-fit]
–adjective
1. made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged: counterfeit dollar bills.
2. pretended; unreal: counterfeit grief.
–noun
3. an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery.

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...which is not the case here.

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Originally posted by PegBoy:
Of course it's a counterfeit. It's not like someone would go through all that trouble just to make a proxie. It was created with the intent of passing it of as a real Black Lotus, the very definition of counterfeiting.

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The card is made of two authentic cards, so how can it be a fake? And if the seller explicitely states that the card is rebacked CE, how can you claim that there's the intent of passing it off as a Beta Lotus? Did you reback the Lotus yourself, or do you perhaps know the one who did it?

Please stop making a fuss over semantics. Just keep things simple. A fake is a fake, rebacked CE is rebacked CE, and counterfeit is a qualification you can only suspect applies to the card in question. Perhaps someone really wanted a fancy proxy.

It has been altered to make it appear to be more valuable. That is fraud. And counterfeiting. The fact that they're selling it AS a counterfeit is irrelevant. The buyer can turn around and sell it as real. They can even say, "look, I got this from a dealer."

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Originally posted by Uthaedeol:
The card is made of two authentic cards, so how can it be a fake? And if the seller explicitely states that the card is rebacked CE, how can you claim that there's the intent of passing it off as a Beta Lotus? Did you reback the Lotus yourself, or do you perhaps know the one who did it?

Please stop making a fuss over semantics. Just keep things simple. A fake is a fake, rebacked CE is rebacked CE, and counterfeit is a qualification you can only suspect applies to the card in question. Perhaps someone really wanted a fancy proxy.

Of course the buyer will most likely have malicious intent in buying this Lotus, and the seller probably isn't helping his market by selling this Lotus, but that wasn't my point - although this does answer the question as to what this card's worth is: Obviously a decent reback job would fool plenty of people, and the potential of making money is a fine explanation why less responible people would pay seriously for this Lotus.

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You honestly think it's likely this was created with the intent of making a proxy? If you wanted proxies you could just use the IE/CE version in opaque sleeves without all that extra work. Why would someone go through so much trouble to make it look authentic other than fraud?

By your logic printing up counterfeit money and selling it is also legitimate, just as long as you mention that it's fake. Right, you would never get put in jail for that...

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:

Rebacked CE sure as hell isn't real. Yes, it's made from two real cards. That doesn't make it real. You can bleach a 5-dollar bill, print a $100 on it, and it's still fake, even though it's made from a real bill.
It has been altered to make it appear to be more valuable. That is fraud. And counterfeiting. The fact that they're selling it AS a counterfeit is irrelevant. The buyer can turn around and sell it as real. They can even say, "look, I got this from a dealer."

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Originally posted by PegBoy:
You honestly think it's likely this was created with the intent of making a proxy? If you wanted proxies you could just use the IE/CE version in opaque sleeves without all that extra work. Why would someone go through so much trouble to make it look authentic other than fraud?

By your logic printing up counterfeit money and selling it is also legitimate, just as long as you mention that it's fake. Right, you would never get put in jail for that...

"I made this stack of $100 bills because I wanted realistic looking monopoly money!"

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No I don't honestly think the Lotus was rebacked with the intent of making a proxy. All I said was that you can't know for sure that it wasn't. After all, unless you're very clumsy, rebacking isn't that difficult.

And you are right, printing counterfeit money and selling it as such is very legitimate. Producers of all kinds of games have been doing so for ages. On a side note, this counterfeit money wouldn't be really counterfeit, as according to your definition, for something to be counterfeit, it must've been created with the intent of passing it off deceptively as genuine, but if you inform your buyers of the inauthenticity of your product, you're not going to be deceiving any of them.

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Originally posted by Uthaedeol:
The Trade & Value Questions forum doesn't seem like the right place to be quarreling over definitions...

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Originally posted by Uthaedeol:
And you are right, printing counterfeit money and selling it as such is very legitimate. Producers of all kinds of games have been doing so for ages.

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So you're saying that monopoly money could somehow be mistaken for the real thing?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
So you're saying that monopoly money could somehow be mistaken for the real thing?

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Check mate.

Edit: also...

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If something is X and everyone knows what X is, why call it Y instead?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
So you're saying that monopoly money could somehow be mistaken for the real thing?

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I didn't say it could nor that it couldn't.

I don't understand why you and others insist on playing this little game of words and meanings. Don't you know that in the end dictionaries are only arbitrary things too? There's no universal meaning of words you know. If I think the best way to refer to the Lotus this topic is supposed to be about isn't 'fake' or 'counterfeit', but 'rebacked CE', and that these denominations aren't synonymical (which is an ontological impossibility to begin with), why not let me?

quote:

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Originally posted by Uthaedeol:
I didn't say it could nor that it couldn't.

I don't understand why you and others insist on playing this little game of words and meanings. Don't you know that in the end dictionaries are only arbitrary things too? There's no universal meaning of words you know. If I think the best way to refer to the Lotus this topic is supposed to be about isn't 'fake' or 'counterfeit', but 'rebacked CE', and that these denominations aren't synonymical (which is an ontological impossibility to begin with), why not let me?

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how hard is it to admit you are wrong and be done with it?

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Originally posted by junichi:
how hard is it to admit you are wrong and be done with it?

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I'm just saying what I think. For crying out loud. Is my opinion that outrageous?

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Originally posted by caquaa:
meh, I just stick a CE one in the cube. Cutting one up is such a shame.

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That's what I did to get my BB Sea.....just bought a CE one about three weeks ago and popped that into my EDH deck.....works fine for me in casual EDH and my friends that I play with don't mind at all, in fact they all want it from me for their EDH decks

Enter rebacking... People would reback (and shave the corners) simply to be able to play with them in their decks without having severely marked cards.

If you want to run a proxy piece of power you print of a picture of the card and tape it to a basic land.