posted February 02, 2002 04:00 PM            

Just to address a few things here. First off, there's something that people just aren't getting. The Articles forum isn't really leaving at all: it's becoming The Tome. The forum itself was just one step towards a larger design. Before anyone starts trying argue, read on.

I'm going to quote Leshrac here:

quote:

---

There may be a moderated discussion option for the news, articles, and decks posted on The Tome in the not-so-distant future, if we decide we want to take that step, so you never know.

---

Take the time to read that through carefully. I posted this afterward:

quote:

---

A bulletin board system on The Tome itself is more than a little interesting. In fact, I have the feeling that late nights are in my future discussing how it should be run.

---

Do you see? The Tome is, in reality, an expanded Articles forum. The best parts of the forum are being worked into the site to provide a more complete visiting experience. Some things that we want to do with The Tome simply cannot be done on MOTL for one reason or another, and just by placing things on The Tome in the first place allows for less censorship on people's works.

To everyone complaining about this, you've trusted Leshrac's judgment in things in the past, and now you're not even going to have the decency to see this one through, for better or worse? Do you think this decision was made lightly, without much discussion among the staff and the weighing of pros and cons? Do you think that one morning Leshrac just woke up and said, "Hey, why not kill the Articles forum?"

This isn't about shutting down a specialized forum, it's about expanding the idea of the Articles forum into something that will be truly great if given a chance. So far, everyone that has posted negatively in this thread has made it obvious that such a chance won't be given. To those people I say:

Thanks for the comments, but if you won't even give the idea a chance even after you have read this and other replies made by the staff, we'll simply move on without you. We have a gameplan that won't wait for those who can't accept improvement through change.

For Val (or perhaps Vally, since she insists on calling me Timmy), I'll explain this one more time. This makes the third time, or perhaps the fourth time, I've gone in-depth with this.

This is the clause in The Tome's submission guidelines that is in question:

quote:

---

Quick notes: Any content submitted to The Tome becomes partial property of The Tome. What this means is that we at The Tome have the right to do anything that we see fit with your content, including but not limited to posting it in various sections of The Tome, rewriting any portion(s), making any changes and/or additions that we wish, etc.

---

People, this is a rather standard clause that is put into submission rules in dozens of writing-related fields. It has to be: if not, we couldn't do things such as correct grammar, put in HTML coding if needed, and things such as that. WE DO NOT JUST RANDOMLY EDIT THINGS IN AND OUT OF ARTICLES! We don't want to get sued if we forget to cross a T or dot an I somewhere along the way. It's quite simple: if you think that any member of the staff will cut sections out of an article or put in things without the express permission of the author, you are WRONG. To think that we would is, quite simply, a flawed outlook.

posted February 02, 2002 04:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheFireStarter:
GREAT! Let us all use EXTREME examples to prove a point! Did you know that 1 in every 4 million lobsters are BLUE?! I can no longer say that lobsters are their actual color, now can I?!
*end sarcasm*
If you want to bring up a point that carries valitility, try to use something realistic

---

extreme example? not at all.. just something from recent history.. you were the one who so carelessly used always in their statements.. something that unless you know all examples and instances to be the same, then you can use always
otherwise, it will not be always that way.
and I did use a rather realistic point.. (so are you now saying its not real that Bush jr. is prez?) gosh.. how real do you need it to be??

all I gots to say is you are fighting a losing battle.. throw up yer arms and wave the white flag already.. as much as peeps arent willing to believe.. there is no dishonor in surrendering

©

posted February 02, 2002 05:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by iakae:
To everyone complaining about this, you've trusted Leshrac's judgment in things in the past, and now you're not even going to have the decency to see this one through, for better or worse? Do you think this decision was made lightly, without much discussion among the staff and the weighing of pros and cons? Do you think that one morning Leshrac just woke up and said, "Hey, why not kill the Articles forum?" [QUOTE]

How about some warning then, or hell even a public deabte on the merits of such a project.

[QUOTE] This isn't about shutting down a specialized forum, it's about expanding the idea of the Articles forum into something that will be truly great if given a chance. So far, everyone that has posted negatively in this thread has made it obvious that such a chance won't be given. To those people I say:

Thanks for the comments, but if you won't even give the idea a chance even after you have read this and other replies made by the staff, we'll simply move on without you. We have a gameplan that won't wait for those who can't accept improvement through change.
[QUOTE]

How about leaving the article forum open, until these magical improvements come?

[QUOTE]If you don't want to give The Tome a chance to show what it will be capable of in the coming months, then fine, don't. But the fact of the matter is that things are still going to be happening, whether the doubters support it or not. I'm just hoping that it has occured to the naysayers that our community has some real opportunities with The Tome that shouldn't be wasted.

---

Please explain, what opportunities? We already had the ability to give feedback on articles, what else exactly is there?

Vegeta2711

posted February 02, 2002 06:13 PM         

Han; I believe that that is an extreme example, because it was a FLUKE. Never before, has an election been so close, that votes had to be counted by hand and filtered through to see if they were valid. If you don't wish to reconize that as a extreme (even if it is recent) example, then go for it and be ignorant. An example of you being ignorant as you wished to see is; "Virtual cards wouldn't have any cash value". Merry ****ing Christmas.

EDIT: Also, I like my idea a bit more than fully changing the article forum to The Tome. The only reason I do not agree with this action, is for one reason. Not everyone that submits articles to the Tome would be accepted and not everyone who submits articles to the Article form supports The Tome.

posted February 02, 2002 06:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by iakae:
Do you think that one morning Leshrac just woke up and said, "Hey, why not kill the Articles forum?"

---

I don't see why not. I mean, if I was a semi-popular leader of an incredibly huge internet community, I could get bored with things every now and then and just get a-crackin'.

Of course, this is completely off topic, but modo has been down for damn long, I'm about to be in top 8 for Torment Pre-Release, it's over 4 am here and I'm in the general discussion forum with no other good topics on the top right now.

Even though coolio is slightly wrong about the "there's no dishonour in surrender" thingie, he does have a point. Firestarter, you're in a losing fight here. The Tome will be the new home of articles, whether a loud individual opposes it or not.

posted February 03, 2002 04:50 AM            

I was hoping to win the Tome contest a while ago but I guess my idea was to vast for their minds to take in. j/k

- BlackStorm

posted February 03, 2002 09:39 AM            

Would a tournement report section be ok to put in the place of the article form. I know that there are alot of non-writers that occacionaly like to write about how there deck did at a tournement, or how the pre-release was, In fact these are the articles (besides stratagy) that I like to read the most, and most magic orenited sites don't like posting reports from scrubs, that are just so-so wrote. But to just read about the better people you don't get new idea's from suprise decks, because in the premir tournements there are few suprise decks. Just yesterday I read about a Blind Seer, Northern Paladian combo for destroying any permant, including land. Not something I would every see posted in a normal tournement report.

Just a thought on some thing that I don't think the TOME is looking for, that I would still like to see on the MOTL site.

posted February 03, 2002 10:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vegeta2711:
Please explain, what opportunities? We already had the ability to give feedback on articles, what else exactly is there?

Vegeta2711

---

I'm going to have to make this somewhat quick, as I'm having comp problems at the moment and I don't know how long my battery is going to hold out. So I apologize right off the bat for not being able to hit every point I could make.

First off, why would there need to be a public debate? If the good points of the Articles forum are going to be preserved on a site actually based around expanding those points, what would there be to debate? The fact that some people are too lazy to load up another site on their browsers? As for the warning, you did get a warning. Remember, the forum isn't shut down completely as of yet, just to new topics. That's giving people the time to get used to the idea.

As for leaving the forum there until the changes come, this IS one of the improvements, consolidating everything into one place. As it stands now, it's scattered on two different websites, and that's certainly not efficient.

The opportunities are numerous, so I'll try to hit on at least a few before this damn battery runs out.

First off, MOTL is a trading site. Sure, it's become more than that over the past few years, but at heart it's a trading site. This has made it impossible to cater to the needs of the writers in the Articles forum, and it's certainly given less exposure to the writer's work. The Tome, however, is specifically designed around written works and ideas, meaning that the same restrictions don't exist.

At MOTL, the Articles forum would never have the chance to expand. It would be stuck in that single forum for the life span of MOTL, which would be a LONG time. It would never have the chance to become more than a novelty. However, with The Tome, we have the ability to continue to grow. Will it stay just about Magic in the future, or will it perhaps expand into a more complete writing site? Short stories, perhaps, or someday maybe complete novels in chapter-form, such as BoltBait is doing? It's quite possible, and something to look forward to down the road. Until then, consolidating the Articles forum into The Tome makes for a more complete experience.

posted February 03, 2002 03:14 PM         

quote:

---

The Tome is, in reality, an expanded Articles forum.

---

It is? I thought the idea of the Tome was that you and 3 others would screen what was posted on it, whereas any average member could post their article in the old articles forum.

quote:

---

If the good points of the Articles forum are going to be preserved on a site actually based around expanding those points, what would there be to debate? The fact that some people are too lazy to load up another site on their browsers?

---

One of the fundental rules in being a webmaster is keeping load time to minimum. I don't get the impression that ppl are eager to load up The Tome on their browsers, as opposed to visit the articles forum as it is now and post at their convenience. In conclusion, I think you'd be trying forcing ppl to visit The Tome.

posted February 03, 2002 04:12 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by reinhart:
It is? I thought the idea of the Tome was that you and 3 others would screen what was posted on it, whereas any average member could post their article in the old articles forum.

---

So it's better to let any member post anything they want to at free will? Whereas, here we are at leasting making sure they are appropriate? If you read what iakae said before, there is no screening process other than us making sure the article is appropriate. By appropriate I mean to make sure there aren't:

• Spelling errors every other word.
• Consistent logical errors.
• One-paragraph articles.
• Massive amounts of obscenity and swearing.
  

That's all we really avoid.

*EDIT*-Blasted UBB codes...
__________________
AIM Handle: SURFNSKI4REAL

King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan

posted February 03, 2002 06:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leshrac:
There may be a moderated discussion option for the news, articles, and decks posted on The Tome in the not-so-distant future, if we decide we want to take that step, so you never know.

---

I'm glad to hear that. I have been visiting the tome ever since it was founded, and I feel this is what it's missing.

Another suggestion which I broought up in the original Tome innauguration thread was a "letters to the editor" section (Kind of like Inquest's inquisition) where we can write letters to the tome, and the Editor comments on them with witty replies (Including mocking, all in fun). I believie such a section is fun and will encourage more participation in the tome and bring more readers.

Also I feel the need to give the tome more exposure, at least for the beginning until people become more aware of it. It's now mostly hidden in the site navigation bar which many people have no idea it exists and in the articles description. I was thinking more of something bigger, like more of a banner. There is no shame in using MOTL's popularity to promote the Tome a little, at least until it becomes well known by itself.

As may be implied from this reply, I have indeed changed my mind from the previous response i made, and now I can see the bigger picture of the potential the tome has within.

posted February 03, 2002 07:36 PM         

quote:

---

So it's better to let any member post anything they want to at free will? Whereas, here we are at leasting making sure they are appropriate? If you read what iakae said before, there is no screening process other than us making sure the article is appropriate.

---

Dear God, freedom for the MOTL members? We can't have that now, can we? If you're going to be that way about it, why doesn't MOTL recruit more moderators for Magic Discussion forum and have them edit common members' threads for spelling? I'm sure that Implode would love to see "Rout" capitilized for him along with "Editted by Coolio" tagged on to his thread ( http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/013274.html ). MOTL can also supplement their current posting rules with a new regulation that warrants a -2 karma smack for people who misspell words in their thread titles.

Oh wait, I've got a better idea: Let's close the Magic Discussion forum and have people submit their thoughts to the four kings of The Tome, where the powers-that-be can determine if it is fit to see the light of day and if the submitted message passes muster, The Tome can decide how to edit the message.

posted February 03, 2002 08:00 PM         

How is making sure an article is appropriate taking away their free will?

No, I'm not for correcting every single spelling error, if you think so, your completely missing my point.

Example:

"Y I tink blanicing ting wood rock typ 2"

You need to quit acting like a child, my post had no intentions to say what your interpreting them as.

If you know the rules of the Articles forum (and the rules of MOTL as a whole), you'll understand that certain posts are not allowed. Here they are again:
[list]

posted February 03, 2002 08:14 PM         

quote:

---

You need to quit acting like a child, my post had no intentions to say what your interpreting them as.

---

Only one person in this whole thread is having a hissy fit, and it's not me.

quote:

---

If you know the rules of the Articles forum (and the rules of MOTL as a whole), you'll understand that certain posts are not allowed. Here they are again:
[list]
* Massive obscenity and swearing.
* No paragraph-long articles.

---

Oh I'm sorry, i wasn't aware that the state of the articles forum was so horrendous that it needed the Fantastic Four to come to the rescue. Everything is fine just the way it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

quote:

---

Hence, why would correct MASSIVE & CONSISTENT grammatical/spelling errors.

---

I'm sorry, are you trying to say something?

posted February 03, 2002 08:28 PM         

No, the Articles Forum isn't in trouble as far as bad articles are considered, but may I ask what the problem is in adding some help?

__________________
AIM Handle: SURFNSKI4REAL

King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan

posted February 03, 2002 08:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by HanSolo6385:
Y I tink blanicing ting wood rock typ 2

---

Okay, look. If you're going to get mad about misspelling... how about YOU DON'T MISPELL THINGS YOURSELF.

__________________
e-mail: potsiewebber@hotmail.com
"Somebody hates me and I hate somebody too" - Reel Big Fish

posted February 03, 2002 08:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MashedParsnips:
Okay, look. If you're going to get mad about misspelling... how about YOU DON'T MISPELL THINGS YOURSELF.

---

So much for taking things out of context

posted February 03, 2002 08:45 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by MashedParsnips:
Okay, look. If you're going to get mad about misspelling... how about YOU DON'T MISPELL THINGS YOURSELF.

---

...okay, that was an example, my God.

Can we please stay on topic here??!!

__________________
AIM Handle: SURFNSKI4REAL

King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan

posted February 03, 2002 09:06 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by MashedParsnips:
Okay, look. If you're going to get mad about misspelling... how about YOU DON'T MISPELL THINGS YOURSELF.

---

Sweet jebus, the intelligence on this thread is suffocating...

__________________
AIM Handle: Sarnath7

I saw a werewolf drinking a Pina Colada at Trader Vic's. His hair was perfect.

"Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose." –Nietzsche

posted February 03, 2002 09:22 PM            

I also started on this thread by saying how I think it's not the correct decision and that the articles forum should remain.

But after fully reading what Leshrac, Iakae, Han and others had to say, as you can read from my last reply, I now see the bigger picture, and realize that I was wrong, and that indeed there is indeed a high potential to the tome as a form of an improved and expanded articles forum outside the boundaries of MOTL's trading nature.

Obviously not many of you have carefully read the many replies on this post; and those who did read, choose to ignore them and nitpick on some minor elementary stuff such as spelling editing or laziness of loading up another site (just add it to your bookmarks for crying out loud).

As mentioned there will be interaction opportunities implemented in the future such as with the articles forum. So... let's all give it a chance and if you still want to argue against it, go over all of the replies and argue to the point instead of ranting.

posted February 03, 2002 09:27 PM         

Sensibility makes a comeback.

Just give the Tome a chance, and these interactive opportunities might come sooner than you think.

__________________
AIM Handle: SURFNSKI4REAL

King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan

posted February 03, 2002 11:26 PM            

If you have any further comments you'd like to pass on, just send iakae or me an e-mail. While I can't promise I'll be able to reply, as I'm massively busy, I do read everything sent to me.