quote:

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Originally posted by Myy:
So I payed a dollar for nothing..

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BTA him.

__________________
40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

quote:

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Ok, so if we all agree after 1 rite we have:

6P + 22N

If we then target a P golem with the 2nd Rite, it replicates out to 6(P's 2nd ability triggers) x 5(non-targeted P's) x 5(Rite copies)+5(rite copies of targeted P) = 155 new P's

and

6*5*22N = 660 new N's
+155x2 = 310 new N's from new P's

adding to the old ones, we get 161P and 992N = 1153 total.

If we target a token for the 2nd Rite, it replicates out to 6(P's 2nd ability triggers) x 6(non-targeted P's) x 5(Rite copies) = 180 new P's

and

6*5*21+5=635 new N's
+360 new N's from new P's

add, and we get 186P's + 1017N's = 1203 total.

I think that's right. If not, I unfortunately have work to do, so I'll be back later.

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its why i said my first math on it was wrong.. the triggers keeps resolving 1 tier at a time, and each time, you have an exponential more golems to target

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
its why i said my first math on it was wrong.. the triggers keeps resolving 1 tier at a time, and each time, you have an exponential more golems to target

©

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr.C:
It only triggers on being cast, however. So it will copy for whatever is in play at the time it was cast with replicate.; Although it resolves in tiers, you arent casting the copies, so it won't trigger.

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correction, it can copy all available targets on the resolution of each individual precursor trigger, so, my reasoned math on page 1 is correct

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

After each Precursor triggered Rite resolves, the first of the tokens CIP abilities trigger, putting the token generation on the stack. After that, the next triggered Rite will resolve, and repeat, until finally the last (and original) Rite resolves, and then we get more tokens on the stack.

First rite has resolved, 6 precursors and 22 golems in play. You cast Rite, targeting a token. Stack looks like this:

TOP
Precursor TRIGGER
Trigger
Trigger
Trigger
Trigger
Trigger
Rite of Rep, Kicked.
BOTTOM

When each trigger resolves, it copies kicked rite targeting each other golem. So when the 2nd trigger resolves, ALL the new golems are in play.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

quote:

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
I'm with Mr. C on this part, the P golem only triggers on a spell being cast, not anytime a Golem is targeted. Since the copies are put directly onto the stack, they don't retrigger the Golems. Also, the targets are chosen when those copies are put on the stack, not on resolution. The stack would look like:

Original Rite
Precursor triggered Rite
Precursor triggered Rite
Precursor triggered Rite
Precursor triggered Rite
Precursor triggered Rite

After each Precursor triggered Rite resolves, the first of the tokens CIP abilities trigger, putting the token generation on the stack. After that, the next triggered Rite will resolve, and repeat, until finally the last (and original) Rite resolves, and then we get more tokens on the stack.

Targets are already chosen, so none of the new tokens get copied. Only the 6P + 22N get copied.

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incorrect

go back and go read what you wrote.. totally incorrect on the way to resolve precursor

you have your original rite on the very bottom of the stack

you then have 6 precursor golem triggers

each precursor golem trigger resolution will let you put as many copies of rite on the stack as there are available targets.. then those copies will resolve.. putting golems into play.. then you have another precursor golem trigger resolving.. allowing you to put as many copies of rite onto the stack as there are available copies... and so forth..

©

edit: it'd appear as none of you, outside thror, knows how the ability resolves, and what it actually does....

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
incorrect

go back and go read what you wrote.. totally incorrect on the way to resolve precursor

you have your original rite on the very bottom of the stack

you then have 6 precursor golem triggers

each precursor golem trigger resolution will let you put as many copies of rite on the stack as there are available targets.. then those copies will resolve.. putting golems into play.. then you have another precursor golem trigger resolving.. allowing you to put as many copies of rite onto the stack as there are available copies... and so forth..

©

edit: it'd appear as none of you, outside thror, knows how the ability resolves, and what it actually does....

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Sorry it wasn't clear, I was listing them 1st in on top, so they'd resolve bottom-up.

quote:

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Sorry it wasn't clear, I was listing them 1st in on top, so they'd resolve bottom-up.

That aside, are you saying the targets aren't chosen on declaration, rather on resolution?

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you are completely confusing 2 things.

there are no targets for precursor's triggered ability.

the resolution will make a copy for each available target when it resolves, then those copies will obv go on the stack.

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

The first Rite of Replication targets Precursor Golem. The spell makes 5 Precursor Golem tokens. Each of those tokens makes 2 Golem tokens (5*2 = 10 Golem tokens).

6 Precursor Golems, 10 Golem tokens

Now, cast a second Rite of Replication targetting a Golem token.

6 triggers from the Precursor Golems go on the stack above that.

The first trigger resolves, and 6 copies targetting PGs and 9 targetting tokens.

The 9 make 45 more tokens.

6 PG, 55 Golem tokens.

The 6 make 6 PGs

12 PG, 55 Golem tokens.

Those 6 each make 2 Golem tokens.

12 PG, 67 Golem tokens.

The second trigger resolves, and 12 copies target PGs and 66 target tokens (1 is the target of the original physical copy of Rite of Replication)

The 66 make 330 Golem tokens

12 PG, 397 GT

The 12 make 60 PGs

72 PG, 397 GT

Those 60 make 120 GT

72 PG, 517 GT

The third trigger resolves and 72 copies target PGs and 516 target tokens.

The 516 make 2580 GT

72 PG, 3097 GT

The 72 make 144 PG

216 PG, 3097 GT

The 144 PG make 288 GT

216 PG, 3385 GT

The fourth trigger resolves and 216 copies target PGs and 3384 target tokens.

The 3384 make 16,920 GT

216 PG, 20,305 GT

The 216 make 1080 PG

1296 PG, 20,305 GT

The 1080 make 2160 GT

1296 PG, 22,465 GT

The fifth trigger resolves and 1296 copies target PGs and 22,464 target tokens.

The 22,464 make 112,320 GT

1296 PG, 134785 GT

The 1296 make 6480 PG

7776 PG, 134,785 GT

The 6480 PG make 12,960 GT

7776 PG, 147745 GT

The sixth trigger resolves and 7776 copies target PGs and 147,744 target tokens.

The 147744 make 738720 GTs

7776 PG, 886465 GT

The 7776 make 38880 PGs

46 656 PG, 886 465 GT

The 38 880 PGs make 77760 GTs

46,656 PGs, 964,225 GTs

The original Rite of Replication resolves and make 5 tokens.

46,656 Precursor Goelms, 964, 230 Golem tokens

GRAND TOTAL:

quote:

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Originally posted by yakusoku:
Here's my answer:

The first Rite of Replication targets Precursor Golem. The spell makes 5 Precursor Golem tokens. Each of those tokens makes 2 Golem tokens (5*2 = 10 Golem tokens).

6 Precursor Golems, 10 Golem tokens

Now, cast a second Rite of Replication targetting a Golem token.

6 triggers from the Precursor Golems go on the stack above that.

The first trigger resolves, and 6 copies targetting PGs and 9 targetting tokens.

The 9 make 45 more tokens.

6 PG, 55 Golem tokens.

The 6 make 6 PGs

12 PG, 55 Golem tokens.

Those 6 each make 2 Golem tokens.

12 PG, 67 Golem tokens.

The second trigger resolves, and 12 copies target PGs and 66 target tokens (1 is the target of the original physical copy of Rite of Replication)

The 66 make 330 Golem tokens

12 PG, 397 GT

The 12 make 60 PGs

72 PG, 397 GT

Those 60 make 120 GT

72 PG, 517 GT

The third trigger resolves and 72 copies target PGs and 516 target tokens.

The 516 make 2580 GT

72 PG, 3097 GT

The 72 make 144 PG

216 PG, 3097 GT

The 144 PG make 288 GT

216 PG, 3385 GT

The fourth trigger resolves and 216 copies target PGs and 3384 target tokens.

The 3384 make 16,920 GT

216 PG, 20,305 GT

The 216 make 1080 PG

1296 PG, 20,305 GT

The 1080 make 2160 GT

1296 PG, 22,465 GT

The fifth trigger resolves and 1296 copies target PGs and 22,464 target tokens.

The 22,464 make 112,320 GT

1296 PG, 134785 GT

The 1296 make 6480 PG

7776 PG, 134,785 GT

The 6480 PG make 12,960 GT

7776 PG, 147745 GT

The sixth trigger resolves and 7776 copies target PGs and 147,744 target tokens.

The 147744 make 738720 GTs

7776 PG, 886465 GT

The 7776 make 38880 PGs

46 656 PG, 886 465 GT

The 38 880 PGs make 77760 GTs

46,656 PGs, 964,225 GTs

The original Rite of Replication resolves and make 5 tokens.

46,656 Precursor Goelms, 964, 230 Golem tokens

GRAND TOTAL:

1,010,886

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except, it's agreed we all start with 6 precursor and 22 golem tokens when we're casting the 2nd kicked rite..

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
except, it's agreed we all start with 6 precursor and 22 golem tokens when we're casting the 2nd kicked rite..

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quote:

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Originally posted by yakusoku:
Where do you get 22 Golem tokens? He only says that we have a Precursor Golem.

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you have a precursor.. obv with 2 tokens.. you rite/kicked the first one..

you end up with a copy of rite on all 3.. netting you 5 golems per original golem token.. and 5 precurors more.. and thus another 10 golem tokens.. totaling at, 6 precursors, and 22 tokens

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
you have a precursor.. obv with 2 tokens.. you rite/kicked the first one..

you end up with a copy of rite on all 3.. netting you 5 golems per original golem token.. and 5 precurors more.. and thus another 10 golem tokens.. totaling at, 6 precursors, and 22 tokens

©

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I'm being difficult. You might assume that there are two tokens on the battlefield, but if I describe a scenario where my opponent has Broodmate Dragon, it's not 100% that he also has a 4/4 red Dragon token, as well. If the scenario said that you cast a Precursor Golem then play two Rites of Replication, that would be a different story, but for all we know, a Pernicious Deed or Powder Keg has wiped out the Precursor Golem's bretheren. The OP in the other thread never says, "you have a Precursor Golem and two Golem tokens..."; he just says "you have a precursor golem in play..."

If you target a golem token with the second rite, you end up with 279936 Precursor Golems and 3779137 golem tokens, for a total of 4059073 golems.

Start with 2 tokens and one precursor (2,1). It's already been shown that you end up with (22,6) after the first Rite. When you kick the second one (targeting a token because you're a good player), you get 6 "global" copies and one "local" copy. The global copies will resolve first.

So, here we are at Stage Zero with (22,6), which I'm going to call (A,B) here in a bit. 21 tokens get copied five times (because the original target does not get copied), as do all six precursors, putting us at

22+(21*5)+(6*5*2) tokens and 6+(6*5) Precursors. Yes, it's necessary to write this out longhand, because we can make an equation from it. This is Stage one. There are six stages.

My theory is this:
If we start with (A,B), the next stage will produce
A+((A-1)*5)+2(B*5) tokens and
6^n Precursors, where n is 1 plus the Stage number.

You stop at stage 6, then you add five to the token total.

(2,1)
(22,6)
(187,36)
(1477,216)
(11017,1296)
(79057,7776)
(552097,46656)
(3779137,279936)
(3779142,279936)

Now, try adding a third to the mix

we ger 6 precursors and 12 tokens.

we do it again and we break the computer.

but seriously we get 18 coppies making 5 creatures apiece. so anyone know 18x5=90 plus the 18 from before =108 golems. good day and oh someone please play mindbreak trap thankyou

quote:

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Originally posted by darius vitrosoo:

but let me get tehis straight we have 1 precurso and 2 tokens and we kick rite correct?
we ger 6 precursors and 12 tokens.

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Wrong.

You forgot the fact that two copies of Rite target the two tokens, each making 5 each. So you get 6 Precursor Golems and 22 tokens. My original numbers worked off of one Precursor Golem and no tokens, but that's open to interpretation of the initial conditions.

quote:

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but seriously we get 18 coppies making 5 creatures apiece. so anyone know 18x5=90 plus the 18 from before =108 golems. good day

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Sorry, no.

This only works if the other 5 Precursor Golems have no text. They all have the same text, so there are 6 triggers each making 21 copies, each making 5 Golems. So, there are at least 6 * 21 * 5 = 630 Golems.

But, that ignores the fact that each Precursor Golem makes 2 Golem tokens. So, 6 * 5 * 2 = 60 additional Golem tokens.

BUT, even that is wrong, because 6 triggers go on the stack, adn they don't all resolve at once. Each trigger resolves and puts copies on the stack above the other triggers below it, so that each trigger closer to the bottom of the stack creates more and more copies.

Your math is wrong.