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Originally posted by Dragon_Slayer from RogueGaming.com:

Alright I experienced this thought while testing standard so I thought why not see what kind of answer I get from you guys.

So you have a precursor golem in play and you rite of replication it with kicker. Now since you have managed to make it this far you think bigger and decide to do it 1 more time. So by the end of all this golem copying shenanigans how many golems do you currently have that can die to a single lightning bolt?

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http://www.roguegaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10621

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First Golem makes 2 copies, so you have Precursor Golem, Golem Token, Golem Token. (3 total - 1 Precursor Golem, 2 Golem Tokens)

First kicked Rite targets Precursor Golem, Golem Token, Golem Token. So if you stack them in the inverse order, you'd get 5 Golem Tokens, 5 Golem Tokens, and 5 Precursor Golem Tokens, which would then make an additional two Golem Tokens each, netting you 10 more Golem Tokens. So you've gained 25 golems this round (28 total - 6 Precursor Golem, 22 Golem Tokens)

Then the NEXT kicked Rite targets 6 Precursor Golems and 22 Golem Tokens. So if you stack them in reverse order, you'd get 110 more Golem Token copies, and 30 more Precursor Golem copies, which would then make an additional two Golem Tokens each, netting you 60 more Golem Tokens. So you've gained 200 golems this round.

So in the end you'd have 228 Golems - 36 Precursor Golems and 192 Golem Tokens.

First golem - 3 golems (1p 2n) (p=precursor, n = normal)
Rite w/ kicker makes 5 more P, 10 more N, the 5 new precursors make 2 N each, total of 6P and 22n.

The 2nd rite is what blows things up. EACH precursor will copy the rite, so you have 6x kicked rites targeting each golem. I do not care to figure this out, someone just go do it on MTGO.

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"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

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Originally posted by thror:
Neither of you are close. the number is much, much bigger.

First golem - 3 golems (1p 2n) (p=precursor, n = normal)
Rite w/ kicker makes 5 more P, 10 more N, the 5 new precursors make 2 N each, total of 6P and 22n.

The 2nd rite is what blows things up. EACH precursor will copy the rite, so you have 6x kicked rites targeting each golem. I do not care to figure this out, someone just go do it on MTGO.

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Edit:

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Originally posted by Metalwalker, on The Source:

DECLARE TARGETS FOR RITE OF REPLICATION:
=> N(g,t) = S(g) + C(g,t) [kicking Rite of Replication on Precursor Golem with C(g,t) = 6g+22t in play]

RESOLVE TRIGGERS ARISING FROM TARGETS OF S:
=> N(g,t) = 6S(C(6g,21t) + R(t) + C(g,t) [Using the property: S(t) = aS(C(ag,(b-1)t)) + R(t) with initial conditions a=6, b=22]
=> N(g,t) = 6S(6g+21t) + R(t) + [6g+22t] [applying the initial condition: C(g,t) = 6g+22t]
=> N(g,t) = 6R(6g+21t) + R(t) + [6g+22t] [resolving spell i.e. applying the transformation S->R]
=> N(g,t) = 36R(g) + 126R(t) + R(t) + [6g+22t] [applying linearity of R]

RESOLVE ENTER-THE-BATTLEFIELD TRIGGERS:
=> N(g,t) = 180G(g) + 127[5t] + [6g+22t] [applying definition of R(g) = 5G(g), note that R(t)=5t i.e. T(t)=t since tokens do not have ETB triggers]
=> N(g,t) = 180[(g+2t)] + 635t + 6g + 22t [applying definition G(g) = g+2t]
=> N(g,t) = 180g + 360t + 635t + 6g + 22t
=> N(g,t) = 186g + 1017t

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He made an obscenely long post there with the formulas and whatnot.

1st rite w/kicker makes 5P + 10N, and that 5 P yields 10 more N on resolution, so we now have 6P and 22N.

2nd rite w/kicker makes 6P x 5 + 22N x 5 = 30P + 110N. Those 30P then yield 60N on resolution. 30P+6P = 36P, and 22N+110N+60N = 192N.

So we have a total of 228 golems, 1 of which is a Precursor Golem, 35 are Precursor Golem tokens, and 192 are just golem tokens.

quote:

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:

EDIT: Mr. C, I believe that mess the guy posted incorrectly assumes the Rite w/kicker targets the P golem 5 times, which it doesn't. It only hits it once.

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wrong.. it triggers ALL precursors

so factor in another layer on your calculations

my math puts me at 186 precursors
and 1042 golem tokens

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Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

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Originally posted by coolio:
wrong.. it triggers ALL precursors

so factor in another layer on your calculations

i believe my number is correct

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quote:

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Yes, it does trigger all precursors, but it does not trigger each one 5 times. So if I have 6 precursors out, each one gets copied 5 times, so I get 30 precursors, plus my original 6. Thus my numbers.

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No no, your missing something. 6 Golems = 6 copies of kicked rite, which makes 5 more golems each. At min, its 36*5 precursor golems.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Yes, it does trigger all precursors, but it does not trigger each one 5 times. So if I have 6 precursors out, each one gets copied 5 times, so I get 30 precursors, plus my original 6. Thus my numbers.

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they all trigger that many times.. if you have 6 precursors out, there's 6x rite with kicker on each one, that's 180 precursors

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
No, 6 golems do not each get 6 copies. They only get copied for the original Rite cast, not each copy that re-targets.

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really? did you read the card?

if I have 6 precursors out, and 22 tokens out.. and i rite with kicker on a golem token, what happens? all 6 precursor triggers.. when all of them resolve that's 6 kicked rites pointing to each golem in all

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__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
Anyone have ~$3 to paypal me so I can try this in case we don't figure it out? lol

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188 precursors and 1017 golem tokens

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__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

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Originally posted by Myy:
I'll give you $1, just need 2 more

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
Actually I just checked the website, I should be able to do it with $1, it'll just take longer haha

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__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

this is actually within capabilities of being reasoned out by just running it thru

after the first rite, we can all agree that we have 6 precursors, and 22 golems right? so you rite with kicker on a golem token, you get 6 triggers off the precursors

first trigger resolves, you hit 6 precursors, and 21 golem tokens.

you generate 105 golem tokens, then 30 precursors, and another 60 golem tokens. (your total at this point minus the original target is- 36 precursors and 176 golems)

2nd precursor trigger resolves, you rite 36 precursors, and 176 golems, meaning you end up with 180 precursors (and 360 tokens out of those..) and 880 golem tokens. (total is now at 216 precursors, and 1416 golem tokens.

3rd original precursor trigger resolves, you rite 216 precursors into 1080 more precursors (and 2160 golem tokens) and 7080 golem tokens. (your total is currently 1296 precursors and 10320 tokens)

4th original precursor trigger resolves, and you rite 1296 precursors into 6480 more precursors, and 12960 tokens, and the 10320 tokens into 51600 more. total is now 7776 precursors, and 74880 golem tokens. whew.. 2 more triggers left...

5th original trigger resolves, turning 7776 precursors into 38880 precursors, and 77760 tokens, and those tokens into 374400, for a total of 46656 precursors, and 527040 golem tokens.

6th and final trigger will pump out 233280 precursors and 466560 golem tokens, and the 527040 will pump out 2635200 more, and your total will then become..

279936 precursors and 3628800 golem tokens.. and the original rite will add 5 to that total, plus the original token.. so.. 279936 precursor/precursor copies, and 3628806 golem tokens.

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__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
cant do it on mtgo.. max token limit will be reached. I know, I'm there, and the first golem trigger just resolved... ugh..

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quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
cant do it on mtgo.. max token limit will be reached. I know, I'm there, and the first golem trigger just resolved... ugh..

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6P + 22N

If we then target a P golem with the 2nd Rite, it replicates out to 6(P's 2nd ability triggers) x 5(non-targeted P's) x 5(Rite copies)+5(rite copies of targeted P) = 155 new P's

and

6*5*22N = 660 new N's
+155x2 = 310 new N's from new P's

adding to the old ones, we get 161P and 992N = 1153 total.

If we target a token for the 2nd Rite, it replicates out to 6(P's 2nd ability triggers) x 6(non-targeted P's) x 5(Rite copies) = 180 new P's

and

6*5*21+5=635 new N's
+360 new N's from new P's

add, and we get 186P's + 1017N's = 1203 total.