Click Here!
         
  Magic Online Trading League Bulletin Board
  Magic Discussion
  Customer service question for the players (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | rules | memberlist | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 
  next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Customer service question for the players
bigbob585
Member
posted September 10, 2011 12:03 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for bigbob585 Click Here to Email bigbob585 Send a private message to bigbob585 Click to send bigbob585 an Instant MessageVisit bigbob585's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hey everybody. I was hoping to get your opinion on limiting quantities that customers order. The following keeps coming up and while it's nice to be the friendly dealer, the time comes when you have to put your foot down.

As a shop, it's virtually impossible to always keep all card prices up to date. As a result, there are many people who try and take advantage of the system. My goal here is to see what the player and dealer bases think before I make my decision on policies. My goal is to stop this behavior and not create more of a workload for myself accommodating these people.


While I have no problem with people buying playsets for themselves, and many do. Some people will try and buy 100 of them as soon as prices skyrocket. I don't impose a limit on cards because some people might collect cards that keep steady value, but this rule is for people who attempt to take advantage of the system by purchasing as much of a single card as they can.

This leaves me with 2 options: I can limit the quantity or cancel the order. I'm here to help out the players, not my competitors.

I've gotten many emails from customers even requesting that I simply cancel the abusers orders so more people have a chance to pick them up. Others email ahead of time to inform me that they're part of a playgroup.

What do all of you think (I'm asking the players here)?

My intent by laying my foot down and cancelling instead of limiting these orders is to stop this behavior on my site. It adds a lot of work to correspond with people. If it comes down to losing customers, I'd rather lose the business of the people that abuse the system than the business of my frequent customers who respect others.
Bagbokk - you posted the same thing as I was already editing here so I thought I'd mention your comment up here.


RESPONSES:
Responses below are to help evolve the discussion and allow everybody else

@MagixDK: to my knowledge, that applies to retail products with fixed prices. Prices with subjective value do not fall under those laws unless they fall under specific sections of regulated commerce. You can also use terms and conditions to modify customer's purchases as long as you don't violate any federal laws. I will look into this further though.

@Myy: I used to do two playsets but switched to one playset unless they make a large order. TCG player caps people at 8. so even buying 8 through there is maxing it out.

@Coolio: Making a profit is assumed when you're running a business. I'm really not sure why you have to always be the one person to make extremely critical, nonconstructive, and negative posts here. I'm usually fine with this but it's time to call you out on it.
That being said, the need to make profit is assumed. I've already said above that I have no problem with people buying their playset. For instance, I had people trying to buy 8-40ea of divining witches but only 4 of each on leveler. Therefore I'm planning on cancelling all divining witch orders but none of the leveler orders. Mind you that the difference in lost profits is 4x as much on leveler, but it's ok because the system wasn't abused.
to mm1983: I have many shops in South America who consistently buy 50-100 of each card when it comes out. I have no problem with that. I let most people order whatever they want if they're frequent customers. Would you say this is fair?

@jtrade: To be honest, In three years I've never received a single phone call regarding this and rarely receive emails customers with requests. I have a web phone number and I call people back when they don't leave messages.
I actually have a few customers who will make the order, mark that they're paying in cash, and then email a request for approval. That way it's still there but they haven't paid for it.

@scrum: The service I use doesn't allow for it. Any limitations I impose on purchases will lose me customers. Therefore if I have to put limitations somewhere and it might as well be on those who abuse the system if it has to be on anybody.

[Edited 10 times, lastly by bigbob585 on September 11, 2011]

 
EternusIra
Member
posted September 10, 2011 12:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for EternusIra Click Here to Email EternusIra Send a private message to EternusIra Click to send EternusIra an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'd say limit it to 2x Playsets of a card unless they email you personally a day before the order saying they want more. Since prices normally go up within a few hours a days time would just mean they're most likely not speculating or had insider knowledge and nothing you can do there.
 
MagixDK
Member
posted September 10, 2011 01:18 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MagixDK Click Here to Email MagixDK Send a private message to MagixDK Click to send MagixDK an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
im not sure if you arent legally obligated to sell your items at advertised prices?

at least thats how it works in my country

 
Myy
Member
posted September 10, 2011 01:38 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Myy Click Here to Email Myy Send a private message to Myy Click to send Myy an Instant MessageVisit Myy's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Myy's Have/Want ListView Myy's Have/Want List
one or two playsets s o that if "they" want to build the deck, it's fine, but it's not fine to try and Abuse the system and get 30+ of a card that gained 300% value.
 
bigballashotcaller
Member
posted September 10, 2011 02:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for bigballashotcaller Click Here to Email bigballashotcaller Send a private message to bigballashotcaller Click to send bigballashotcaller an Instant MessageVisit bigballashotcaller's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View bigballashotcaller's Have/Want ListView bigballashotcaller's Have/Want List
Limit online orders to 4 of any one card, with an on-screen note that they can order more of any card with a phone order (which will allow you to decide on a by-case basis how many you wish to sell, in real time).
 
Devonin
Member
posted September 10, 2011 04:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by MagixDK:
im not sure if you arent legally obligated to sell your items at advertised prices?

at least thats how it works in my country


This is a thing a lot of people are confused about. In most countries (your individual mileage may vary of course) you are actually freely bartering for all goods. In most of the First World though, our culture has developed to where we generally accept that business owners are not trying to rip us off, and we've accepted that we're not going to try to rip off a business, and that a posted price represents pretty much exactly what the business owner will accept for something.

That said, your average American can go into Wal-Mart or Target and ask to speak to a manager, and negotiate the sale price of any item they feel like. Most of them will be willing to give discounts per item on large scale purchases (Knocking money off if you bought say, a Television, Blu-Ray player, Game console and a number of games all at once) But you could try your luck on a chocolate bar too.

Posted prices are invitations to deal only.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Devonin on September 10, 2011]

 
shade2k1
Member
posted September 10, 2011 05:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for shade2k1 Click Here to Email shade2k1 Send a private message to shade2k1 Click to send shade2k1 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View shade2k1's Have/Want ListView shade2k1's Have/Want List
My thought is, if you're making a profit selling a card for $4, and it suddenly jumps up to $20, you're still making a profit if you sold the card for only $4.

If you're making your living as a dealer, it's your responsibility to stay on top of prices.

__________________
There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss. But when it looked back at us...you blinked.

 
iccarus
Member
posted September 10, 2011 06:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant MessageVisit iccarus's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iccarus's Have/Want ListView iccarus's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by bigballashotcaller:
Limit online orders to 4 of any one card, with an on-screen note that they can order more of any card with a phone order (which will allow you to decide on a by-case basis how many you wish to sell, in real time).

Agree with this.

Also, while there will be a random card that spikes here and there, most jumps are due to large events. If you're making a living selling cards, then paying attention to Pro Tour and GP coverage is probably a good idea. Checking coverage on the first SCG open after a new set comes out probably wouldn't hurt either.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

I collect Granite Gargoyles. Send them my way.

 
coolio
Member
posted September 10, 2011 06:36 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bigbob585:

As a shop, it's impossible to keep up to date prices on all cards.

there's just so many things I find wrong with this statement....

that's a pretty lame excuse.. keep your ears to the ground, and you should know what's going on, if you are asleep at the wheel on the banning and restriction announcement nights, that's your bad.

I do like how you preface your post with your inadequacy by trying to shift blame to the customer

if you were ok with the prior pricing, and then when something jumps, and someone wanted 100 copies, basically you're just stating you just want more profit, which is fine, but suck it up and admit to it.

©

edit: simply put, you dont want to be taken advantage of, but you want to take advantage of your customers after a price spike.. it's two sides of the same coin..

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
-Seneca the Younger



[Edited 1 times, lastly by coolio on September 10, 2011]

 
AlmostGrown
Member
posted September 10, 2011 07:05 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AlmostGrown Click Here to Email AlmostGrown Send a private message to AlmostGrown Click to send AlmostGrown an Instant MessageVisit AlmostGrown's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AlmostGrown's Have/Want ListView AlmostGrown's Have/Want List
I'd do max of 8 of one card, and if they want more they have to email/call customer service first to get it cleared.
 
CubFan81
Member
posted September 10, 2011 08:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for CubFan81 Click Here to Email CubFan81 Send a private message to CubFan81 Click to send CubFan81 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View CubFan81's Have/Want ListView CubFan81's Have/Want List
I used to think like Coolio, and still do as far as banned/restricted announcements. They happen 4 times a year on pre-determined days. Stay awake until midnight eastern, refresh the main page and take a quick look. Update accordingly or pull your product until the price settles if you want.

I've been swayed a bit the other way recently if only because the influx of Magic "economic" and "investment" articles and and influence they have. Everyone seems to want to get in on the speculation and one tweet sends them all scrambling.

__________________
PMs don't work in Chrome or Firefox 4.0+, see HERE for work arounds.

 
mm1983
Member
posted September 10, 2011 08:58 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
Most online stores have it set up automatically that customers can only buy single cards in quantities of up to 8 or 12 per card. It doesn't matter if it's common or rare. In the past I have tried buying 100 of different brand new commons all at .05 or less each from numberous stores and some of the stores wouldn't let me because they had the max quantity set at 8 or 12. I can understand limiting rares but most stores should be happy to be dumping off their brand new commons and uncommons that have by the hundreds just from opening boxes.
 
Jtrade77
Member
posted September 10, 2011 10:09 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Jtrade77 Send a private message to Jtrade77 Click to send Jtrade77 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I think you should be happy to make sales, no matter how large or strange. Half the time speculation doesn't pay off; it's not a sure thing.

Personally if someone suddenly wants to buy 100 of a junk rare, and then that junk rare never takes off... guess what? You just sold 100 of a junk that you'd never move anyway.

But if you don't want people's money, the suggestion you impose a limit with a phone number that *actually works* for people who want to break that limit is a good one. Thing is, I usually get answering machines with no call backs when using web phone numbers.

 
Bagbokk
Member
posted September 10, 2011 10:42 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It never feels good to sell a card for $4 that you look up prices 12 hours later and you notice that it's up to $15 now. But really? People who attempt to take advantage of the system? Abusers? I never agree with the way coolio points things out, but I usually agree with the substance and I do this time too. I also agree with shade2k1. I'm not a dealer and I still try to keep up with prices.

Anyway, as far as a solution, I'd agree with this as a general matter:

quote:
Limit online orders to 4 of any one card, with an on-screen note that they can order more of any card with a phone order (which will allow you to decide on a by-case basis how many you wish to sell, in real time).

It solves your problems. For the people that collect cards that keep steady value, you can offer an e-mail address and a phone order (I hate making phone calls, email is much easier and better for me), and they can contact you about buying X amount of whatever.

 
Volcanon
Member
posted September 10, 2011 10:50 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jtrade77:
I think you should be happy to make sales, no matter how large or strange. Half the time speculation doesn't pay off; it's not a sure thing.

Personally if someone suddenly wants to buy 100 of a junk rare, and then that junk rare never takes off... guess what? You just sold 100 of a junk that you'd never move anyway.

But if you don't want people's money, the suggestion you impose a limit with a phone number that *actually works* for people who want to break that limit is a good one. Thing is, I usually get answering machines with no call backs when using web phone numbers.


Usually no reply? You mean always. And even when the message is also followed-up with an email. And it's a purchase of cards that aren't at all going up.

 
oneofchaos
Member
posted September 10, 2011 11:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for oneofchaos Click Here to Email oneofchaos Send a private message to oneofchaos Click to send oneofchaos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
As a shop I feel you are obligated to fulfill any orders. However, people do buy insane amounts of a card for cheap. I'd say it would be fair to cancel the amount over 4 (which gives them a playset) so they won't be able to exploit you as much, but you would have at least given them the set they chose to purchase from your store. Or you could limit it to 8.
 
choco man
Member
posted September 10, 2011 11:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by coolio:
you're just stating you just want more profit, which is fine, but suck it up and admit to it.

©


Yep, just man-up and be honest.

If you're just up-front about it, I don't think people care about you profiting. It's only when you're dishonest about making money when you get flamed. Case in point, Brian Grewe's BS about how he's a "nice" shark.

quote:
Originally posted by Jtrade77:
[B]I think you should be happy to make sales, no matter how large or strange. Half the time speculation doesn't pay off; it's not a sure thing.

Personally if someone suddenly wants to buy 100 of a junk rare, and then that junk rare never takes off... guess what? You just sold 100 of a junk that you'd never move anyway.[B]


I don't think this pertains to OP's post. I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Shoals. The minute the Pro Tour started and Shoal tech became public knowledge, they're no longer "junk" rares. If someone's buying a 100 shoals @ their old prices, it's pretty obvious that he's just trying to take advantage. Now if someone wants to buy them 2 weeks prior to the PT, that's a different story.


 
MTDetermine
Member
posted September 11, 2011 01:44 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MTDetermine Click Here to Email MTDetermine Send a private message to MTDetermine Click to send MTDetermine an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
If you operate on forums like MOTL where orders need to be confirmed first, you can always reject the order or suggest amending it just before trade confirmation is done.

For online shop where payment is received upfront, I think the cleanest way is to limit purchase to 8 copies. Customers who buy for playing purposes should find 8 sufficient for their needs 90% of the time.

 
gaeacradle
Member
posted September 11, 2011 06:31 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
For people who are in a playgroup that wants more than 2 playsets, they can just ask other people in their playgroup to order too. I am perfectly okay with limiting orders to 8 of each card, except for uncommon/common of course
 
mm1983
Member
posted September 11, 2011 06:50 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Jtrade77:

Personally if someone suddenly wants to buy 100 of a junk rare, and then that junk rare never takes off... guess what? You just sold 100 of a junk that you'd never move anyway.


I'll take 100 Steamflogger Bosses

[Edited 1 times, lastly by mm1983 on September 11, 2011]

 
scrum
Banned
posted September 11, 2011 10:12 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for scrum Click Here to Email scrum Send a private message to scrum Click to send scrum an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 

why not have something that dynamically adjusts the prices based on a spike in demand?
 
jshields
Member
posted September 11, 2011 11:49 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for jshields Click Here to Email jshields Send a private message to jshields Click to send jshields an Instant MessageVisit jshields's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
As someone that is also trying to run a small magic store and that enjoys speculation, I really dislike it when I am restricted from buying only 4-8 of a specific card when a store clearly has tons available for sale. I normally will buy no more than about 4-5 playsets, but from a business standpoint, any speculation is a gamble for either end (hence why I can see stores limiting purchases.) However, as a store needs to sell cards to make money, I am in the boat that any card that does not sell or that is not bought out is money lost either way.

quote:
Originally posted by mm1983:
I'll take 100 Steamflogger Bosses

----> Hey, that's my line mm1983! I own about 1000 steamflogger bosses and cannot wait for these to become $20 cards so I can trade them in for a brand-new car

 
WestWycke
Member
posted September 11, 2011 12:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WestWycke Click Here to Email WestWycke Send a private message to WestWycke Click to send WestWycke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
The simplest method to keep the speculators at bay is to simply limit everyone to 4x or 8x of any particular card when purchasing. For customers who want to establish an ongoing business-to-business relationship(like the South American shops you mentioned), you can make a preferred buyers list for them and let them buy what they want.

Simple. Easy. Done.

If you really want to also allow general customers the capability to order large quantities of a single card without allowing the speculators to raid you dry, you might want to offer a market pricing delayed purchasing plan.

Customers would place orders with quantity desired and a maximum market price they will accept. After seven days you fill the order at the then current market price (if it is at or below their maximum), or the order is cancelled if the price has risen too high.

This will keep the super-short-term speculators away, as the seven day delay will allow the market to catch up to them. But for those who want to purchase a lot of one card for non-speculative reasons(I collect Shadow of Doubt myself), they should be able to live with it as the price is very unlikely to vary much if at all.

There will be an onus on you as the store owner to deal fairly with this and not overstate the market prices to take advantage of your customers. But if your intent with going through these gyrations is to keep your stock from being raided by speculators so as to be able to provide cards for a wider number of customers, then I would suspect that the extra effort involved in being scrupulously fair would be worth it.

Depending on how complex you want to take this, you could even offer a guarantee that if market price doesn't climb by a minimum amount(maybe 20%-25%) you would give them the price that was available at the time they originally placed the order.

quote:
Originally posted by coolio:
simply put, you dont want to be taken advantage of, but you want to take advantage of your customers after a price spike.. it's two sides of the same coin..


Coolio, you seem to be missing the point. This is not a zero-sum equation where the only possible result is that someone MUST be taking advantage of someone else. Denying someone else the opportunity to make a killing by not letting them buy 100 copies from you at an out-of-date price is indeed a case of not letting yourself be taken advantage of. But then turning around and selling them to your customers at the new market price is NOT taking advantage of them; it is actually serving them. While your customers may not like that you have raised prices to keep up with the market and they can no longer score a tremendous bargain, they will still like it better than if you have a great price and are completely out of stock.

__________________
"If you're right 90% of the time, why quibble about the other 3% ?"

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good."

 
jULAG
Member
posted September 11, 2011 03:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for jULAG Click Here to Email jULAG Send a private message to jULAG Click to send jULAG an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View jULAG's Have/Want ListView jULAG's Have/Want List
Why not just add some clause to the effect of "Due to vol, we have the right to refuse shipments on large orders of certain cards when prices increase"?

I guess yea that would **** people off, but the people you're going to be ****ing off are going to be smart enough to see through what you're doing as an attempt at guarding against this practice.

The way I've suggested is a least a bit more honest.

 
Volcanon
Member
posted September 11, 2011 03:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jULAG:
Why not just add some clause to the effect of "Due to vol, we have the right to refuse shipments on large orders of certain cards when prices increase"?

I guess yea that would **** people off, but the people you're going to be ****ing off are going to be smart enough to see through what you're doing as an attempt at guarding against this practice.

The way I've suggested is a least a bit more honest.


In Japan a certain large online shop limits orders to 20x per. After I bought 140 P3K boosters from them at the same price over two months they finally realized that maybe they were worth more than they thought.

 

This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 

All times are PDT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | MOTL Home Page | Privacy Statement & TOS

© 1996-2012 Magic Online Trading League

Powered by Infopop © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47e