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How is he defending the practice? He's just stating that people to spend $3000+ bidding on this collection should understand the risks involved in doing so. Seems to make sense to me. Caveat Emptor etc etc etc

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Originally posted by Nitelite:
I am a little surprised at you MTDetermine. I wouldn't expect one of your reputation to defend such a practice. As someone who is engaged in more magic transactions than the vast majority of us, I would expect you and people like you to champion integrity and honesty. Please clarify your remarks.

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He didn't *defend* such a practice, be realistic. He merely pointed out that, morals aside, it is not "technically" a scam.

In other words, if I was selling this as it was listed and you bought it from me, YES I would be a very bad person (in the *moral* sense), yet you could only blame yourself (in the *legal* sense) for falling/believing/being greedy/etc.

Pretty much any e.g. diet pills commercial will use similar "scam" tactics, and you don't go rampant on those I wager?

Is it plausible that the auction seller really has no idea what he's selling? No.

Could you prove it in court? Also no.

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He didn't *defend* such a practice, be realistic. He merely pointed out that, morals aside, it is not "technically" a scam.

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When do you toss aside morals when considering if something is right or wrong? If it was legit it wouldn't be a scam but it isn't. He won't show the collection in person, misleading auction details, etc. This is the very definition of scam. When you see a scam and claim it isn't, that is defending it.

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In other words, if I was selling this as it was listed and you bought it from me, YES I would be a very bad person (in the *moral* sense), yet you could only blame yourself (in the *legal* sense) for falling/believing/being greedy/etc.

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So because it might be legal means it doesn't deserve condemnation?

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Pretty much any e.g. diet pills commercial will use similar "scam" tactics, and you don't go rampant on those I wager?

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I am not in the market for diet pills or else I might. I would think that companies and or individuals that sold legit diet pills (if they exist) sure wouldn't defend the practice of selling fake ones. Especially in front of an audience that regularly buys these pills.

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Personally I would feel a bit insulted by your comment if I were Yifeng, but that's me...

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1.a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle.

No?

Perhaps I should have said it seems like a 'misrepresentation'

Either way, there's no way there's A,B,etc. in those fine new boxes neatly labeled and conveniently having a couple cards face up so the seller never ever had to look into the boxes.

Either way, I'm over it.

We can all agree to disagree within our interpretations of morality and integrity.

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Originally posted by yoriagami:
He didn't *defend* such a practice, be realistic. He merely pointed out that, morals aside, it is not "technically" a scam.

In other words, if I was selling this as it was listed and you bought it from me, YES I would be a very bad person (in the *moral* sense), yet you could only blame yourself (in the *legal* sense) for falling/believing/being greedy/etc.

Pretty much any e.g. diet pills commercial will use similar "scam" tactics, and you don't go rampant on those I wager?

Is it plausible that the auction seller really has no idea what he's selling? No.

Could you prove it in court? Also no.

Personally I would feel a bit insulted by your comment if I were Yifeng, but that's me...

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Thanks yoriagami, you explained my position very well.

My mum runs a small shop selling precious gems. You will not believe the number of people who buy artifically treated gems at 1-5% of the value of real gems, walked into her shop and tell her that her real gems are overpriced. I am sick and tired of people who:

1) Does not research enough
2) Does not think enough
3) Greedy enough to fork out money for something that is highly questionable

If you have done your homework, and got scammed, I feel sorry for you (Example could be buying from a reputable seller with a long history who ran off with your money instead of delivering the goods). Otherwise, I think spending a few hundred bucks now is much better than being scammed out of your life savings when you are close to retirement.

Tell me, which is worse, scammed of $500 when you are 20s, or $300,000 when you are 60?

Oh, and please do not tell me that everyone should be honest so that the world will be a better place. I used to believe in that till 2009 but then I realised that is utopia and few does it in practice.

All of you here, how many of you know at least 1 guy friend who told a girl "I love you" in order to get her to bed? That guy is scamming the girl, right?

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Originally posted by MTDetermine:

All of you here, how many of you know at least 1 guy friend who told a girl "I love you" in order to get her to bed? That guy is scamming the girl, right?

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The last statement is just to illustrate to everyone, how many people are scamming other people without realizing it themselves.

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
MTD, that's not so much a scam as it is a misdirection.

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It can be a scam if you apply a strict outlook while it could be a misdirection if you apply a more lenient view.

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Originally posted by MTDetermine:
It can be a scam if you apply a strict outlook while it could be a misdirection if you apply a more lenient view.

Its similar to this ebay sale where others think it is a scam as they apply a stricter moral requirement to it, while I think otherwise as I focused more on the technical requirements as compared to the moral requirement.

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My mum runs a small shop selling precious gems. You will not believe the number of people who buy artifically treated gems at 1-5% of the value of real gems, walked into her shop and tell her that her real gems are overpriced.

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Suppose your mom had a box of gems that were created in a lab and on top of that box were a few real gems. A customer walks in and inquires about the box. Your mother tells the potential customer that she doesn't know anything about gems (even though she does) but what is on top of the box is an example of what is inside but she won't open the box. You really think your mom would be a "savvy seller" in that example?

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I am sick and tired of people who:
1) Does not research enough
2) Does not think enough
3) Greedy enough to fork out money for something that is highly questionable

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If a person falls into any of those 3 criteria, why would it bother you at all? What you should be sick and tired of is people trying to scam others in your hobby, not defending it and calling it savvy.

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Oh, and please do not tell me that everyone should be honest so that the world will be a better place. I used to believe in that till 2009 but then I realized that is utopia and few does it in practice.

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Huh? When I buy magic cards your damn right I expect the seller to be honest. When they are not, they are posted in the BTA forum. That is how this community works. People here do not look highly at others who misrepresent the condition, edition, language etc of the cards they are selling or trading. Why would you ever condone it elsewhere?

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All of you here, how many of you know at least 1 guy friend who told a girl "I love you" in order to get her to bed? That guy is scamming the girl, right?

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According to you, that is just being savvy. Regardless, the analogy doesn't fit at all.

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Originally posted by Nitelite:
Suppose your mom had a box of gems that were created in a lab and on top of that box were a few real gems. A customer walks in and inquires about the box. Your mother tells the potential customer that she doesn't know anything about gems (even though she does) but what is on top of the box is an example of what is inside but she won't open the box. You really think your mom would be a "savvy seller" in that example?

If a person falls into any of those 3 criteria, why would it bother you at all? What you should be sick and tired of is people trying to scam others in your hobby, not defending it and calling it savvy.

Huh? When I buy magic cards your damn right I expect the seller to be honest. When they are not, they are posted in the BTA forum. That is how this community works. People here do not look highly at others who misrepresent the condition, edition, language etc of the cards they are selling or trading. Why would you ever condone it elsewhere?

According to you, that is just being savvy. Regardless, the analogy doesn't fit at all.

Look, I have bought and sold cards to you in the past. You are a valued member of this community because of your character and integrity. I have always been happy with our transactions and I assume the same of you as I have never received a complaint. When people sell you cards, you want them to be honest in their description of what you are buying so why side with the guy doing the complete opposite? We don't blame all the buyers who have posted in the BTA forum because they didn't do enough homework or didn't have enough experience to realize something was amiss that maybe you or I would have. It's a two way street and to blame one side and not the more serious offender is confusing and gives a mixed signal.

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Gee, I don't go round doing dubious things because I believe in my own ability, that I can earn $$$ the honest way. To me, earning $$$ through illegal or even legal but morally dubious methods is a smear on my own personal ability.

But not everyone sees it that way. Maybe you can start off by hammering Countrywide's former CEO who walked away with over 100+ million despite the tens of billions of bail-out funds used in BOA/Countrywide.

If a seller creates a listing with the intent of deceiving buyers in an effort to drastically inflate the value then it is.

In this auction, if those cards weren't actually on top then it would be considered scamming.

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
The seller hear is obviously being unethical, can he technically sell it the way it is, yes, is it right to mislead in this manner, no. Just like when buying a used car the salesman may know of hidden problems with the car and not tell you, can he do it technically, yes, is it ethical, no. Some people have no conscious though and have no problem doing this and that's a shame, should the buyers have better sense, yes they should but that doesn't make it ok for the seller to represent that he is selling something he is not really selling.

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Yeah...that's illegal.

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Originally posted by Nitelite:
Suppose your mom had a box of gems that were created in a lab and on top of that box were a few real gems. A customer walks in and inquires about the box. Your mother tells the potential customer that she doesn't know anything about gems (even though she does) but what is on top of the box is an example of what is inside but she won't open the box. You really think your mom would be a "savvy seller" in that example?

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Just to add, my mum certify every single piece of her gem because they are valuable enough to be worth the certification fee. So your pathetic case above will not happen in my mum's shop. She also has a policy where she can accompany the customer to any gem certification company
that the customer choose, as long as the customer is willing to pay for the certification fee.

But in the building next to where our shop is, there is indeed a shop ran and managed by an immigrant family from China. They do mixed up real low quality gem with artificially treated gem (that are more beautiful) and present the lot as real thing to customers.

They are successful enough to have bought up well over 10 shops (1 shop is worth $1m easily) in that building while my mum is still paying off the mortgage on her shop.

Thank you for pointing out a business practice of a immigrant family from China. That said, I have no sympathy for their customers. There is a saying in China "The seller will never sell the wrong item. Only the buyer will buy the wrong item" ----> No seller is stupid enough to sell an item for less than its value. Only a cheapskate buyer will be deceived into forking out money for something that is fake

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Originally posted by EdMan218:
Yeah...that's illegal.

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