Author
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Topic: December 2011 competitve Optiional Abilities Change
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Jtrade77 Member
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posted December 20, 2011 11:01 AM
I'm not sure exactly what to make of this change, discuss:http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Infraction_Procedure_Guide_PDF2.pdf Rule 1.4 - now all "beneficial" triggers are optional, at least in Competitive and Professional tournaments, including lifegain (this break Transcendence?) and card draw (from Mind Unbound with only a few cards left in your library?). Why not in the Comprehensive Rules, and not just hidden in the Infraction Procedure Guide? Here is the text in question, bolding is my emphasis: 1.4 OPTIONAL ABILITIES Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional. The player is not required to follow the instruction when the ability resolves, and if the ability is forgotten it will not retroactively be applied. An optional ability does one or more of the following things, and nothing else: • Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life. • Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards. • Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile. • Puts a permanent into play under your control or gives you control of a permanent. • Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control. • Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control. • Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent. • Gives you additional turns or phases. • Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent. Abilities that trigger at the same point in each players turn and do something to “that player” (e.g. Howling Mine) are never optional. This list is comprehensive. An ability that does not fit all of the criteria above is not optional, even if it is to the benefit of the player controlling the ability. Similarly, an optional ability is always optional, even if it would be to the detriment of the player for it to happen.
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WeedIan Member
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posted December 20, 2011 11:15 AM
I see this more as, good players can lay the cheats on bad players and not get warnings for it.That is all. __________________ Member Since 03/28/2001 11000+ posts 1st in posts in Ontario 13th in posts on MOTL Top 5 in Refs in Ontario (by people who location posted)
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Jtrade77 Member
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posted December 20, 2011 11:41 AM
You can now choose NOT to put counters on a golgari grave troll if it hits the table in dredge. (Say you are hard casting it on t5 and got flooded with no discard outlet.)If you hit too many Regal Forces off a Genesis Wave in elves, you can choose not to deck yourself. Jin-Gitaxas becomes more playable... decline to draw 7? (Jin doesn't trigger during each player's turn and doesn't refer to "that player".) Those are the biggest ones I can think of, besides Transcendence.
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sammyt125 Member
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posted December 20, 2011 11:44 AM
quote: Originally posted by Jtrade77: You can now choose NOT to put counters on a golgari grave troll if it hits the table in dredge. (Say you are hard casting it on t5 and got flooded with no discard outlet.)If you hit too many Regal Forces off a Genesis Wave in elves, you can choose not to deck yourself. Jin-Gitaxas becomes more playable... decline to draw 7? (Jin doesn't trigger during each player's turn and doesn't refer to "that player".) Those are the biggest ones I can think of, besides Transcendence.
Regal Force off a Genesis Wave isn't that big of change, you could have just binned the Force if it would have killed you anyway.
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WeedIan Member
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posted December 20, 2011 11:48 AM
Did i miss something? Are they optional all the time or are they optional if the opponent doesn't point them out?__________________ Member Since 03/28/2001 11000+ posts 1st in posts in Ontario 13th in posts on MOTL Top 5 in Refs in Ontario (by people who location posted)
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caquaa Member
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posted December 20, 2011 04:12 PM
quote: Originally posted by WeedIan: Did i miss something? Are they optional all the time or are they optional if the opponent doesn't point them out?
it seems they are always option. If I remind you to draw from your regal force, you just say "nah" I'm very interested to see why this rule was implemented and what the expected results are.
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MagicPatty Member
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posted December 20, 2011 04:29 PM
So I can cast a Time Walk and just opt not to do what the card says to do?
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Tha Gunslinga Moderator
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posted December 20, 2011 04:43 PM
This makes Magic much more difficult and confusing and makes me unhappy.__________________ Looking for misprinted Commander decks. Got one? Talk to me.
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NiceFaceLOL Member
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posted December 20, 2011 04:48 PM
I love this change. I hated having to tell my mouth breather opponent to up his shrine to lethal or be cheating.
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hilikuS Member
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posted December 20, 2011 05:10 PM
quote: Originally posted by NiceFaceLOL: I love this change. I hated having to tell my mouth breather opponent to up his shrine to lethal or be cheating.
I would prefer to have it that way actually. While I'm not a great magic player by any means, I like to try and beat my opponent without exploiting his play mistakes. Seems cheapened otherwise. The rule seems to be much less of a headache on judges though. Like trying to rebuild the game state and all that nonsense. Now it's like, nope you missed it, tough nuggets.
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Absurd90 Member
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posted December 20, 2011 06:36 PM
quote: Originally posted by MagicPatty: So I can cast a Time Walk and just opt not to do what the card says to do?
Triggers, such as draw/gain life.
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Schwingzilla Member
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posted December 20, 2011 07:02 PM
quote: Originally posted by hilikuS:
The rule seems to be much less of a headache on judges though. Like trying to rebuild the game state and all that nonsense. Now it's like, nope you missed it, tough nuggets.
That's why the word "may" exists. Shrine of Burning Rage should say "may." It just doesn't. Except that now it does. Which will be fun to explain to people in casual settings. "I don't have to do this thing on my card, because it's optional. Yes, you still have to do that thing or your card, because it's not optional." Wizards should just learn how to write "may" on their cards consistently. I'm just seeing lots of headaches. I'm pretty good at understanding Magic rules, but I've still got to clear some things up. This doesn't apply to the draw step, correct? I am also amused by MagicPatty's example of "Cast Time Walk, ignore it." However, this is only for triggered abilities, correct? And was this line complete: "If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent." Seems like targeting opponents is irrelevant to whether I should be able to target creatures. So, if my opponent has one life and a Dark Confidant with a +2/+2 Sword equipped, my Flametongue Kavu is not optional, but Big Game Hunter is optional, but if I already control another 4/4, Big Game Hunter is not optional? And Ghitu Slinger is always optional? Bleh, keeping track of a defined "beneficial" term in a game that is designed to subvert rules seems uncool. These things aren't going to come up probably ever, but why bother anyway? But yeah, I'm predicting tournament players intentionally playing confusingly or quickly to skip over triggers from their opponents' stuff. At least, more blatantly than they already do, because now they won't be warned for failing to maintain the game state. Haha, I just looked up Transcendence. Amusing. Edit for yet more problems, a real one this time: The Regal Force example is good. If I have 15 Elves in play and I Genesis Wave the Regal Force, can I choose just to draw ten cards, or is it 0 or 15?
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Schwingzilla on December 20, 2011]
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Devonin Member
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posted December 20, 2011 07:20 PM
0 or 15.You can resolve the ability, or you can choose not to. Nothing whatsoever in there about "only a little"
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AGO Member
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posted December 20, 2011 07:20 PM
Wow...
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Devonin Member
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posted December 20, 2011 07:31 PM
Bear in mind this is only at Professional and Competitive REL, so it's not going to suddenly make FNM into a pile of cheatyfaces.The -vast- majority of cases where this rule applies will be ones where someone -accidentally- forgets a beneficial trigger, and the rules now say "too bad" There's a highly limited number of cases where this is a benefit to forgo things on purpose as part of your strategy, and I wouldn't be surprised if those things get errata to sort them out.
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oneofchaos Member
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posted December 20, 2011 07:43 PM
How does this work for dark confidant at 1 life? Can I just be like nah...not feeling it?
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Devonin Member
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posted December 20, 2011 07:56 PM
The single ability causes card draw and life loss. Thus it's not wholly beneficial to you, and wouldn't be optional.
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oneofchaos Member
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posted December 20, 2011 08:05 PM
Iquote: Originally posted by Devonin: The single ability causes card draw and life loss. Thus it's not wholly beneficial to you, and wouldn't be optional.
It's technically not card draw tho.
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Devonin Member
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posted December 20, 2011 08:17 PM
"Does one or more of the following things, and nothing else""Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards. " It puts cards into your hand and causes you to lose life. Thus is does something else, thus is not optional.
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undersow Member
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posted December 20, 2011 08:21 PM
quote: Originally posted by WeedIan: I see this more as, good players can lay the cheats on bad players and not get warnings for it.That is all.
where is my like button
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SageShadows Member
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posted December 20, 2011 08:36 PM
What about turbo fog strategies and cards like Howling Mine?
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Devonin Member
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posted December 20, 2011 08:37 PM
Howling Mine is explicitly mentioned in the OP, you might read it.Things that happen at the same time on each player's turn to "That Player" are non-optional.
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SageShadows Member
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posted December 20, 2011 09:18 PM
quote: Originally posted by Devonin: Howling Mine is explicitly mentioned in the OP, you might read it.Things that happen at the same time on each player's turn to "That Player" are non-optional.
Thanks for the sarcasm. At the very least, it answered my question.
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caquaa Member
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posted December 21, 2011 01:44 AM
quote: Originally posted by SageShadows: Thanks for the sarcasm. At the very least, it answered my question.
no sarcasm at all, howling mine is specifically given as an example in the stated rule. I guess the intentions are to stop things like shrine of burning rage being abused. With rules before they changed I could have a shrine on 4 counters with you at 6 life. You decide you have one more turn so you'll play it safe and go all in next turn. You pass turn then I "remember" that we didn't put a counter on it three turns ago... the rules say you immediately resolve a missed trigger so now it has 6 and you die. With the new "optional abilities" rule the shrine trigger was deemed optional and skipped so you are certain the shrine only has 4 counters on it. I guess this is a benefit for this rule, but seems like a lot of random things could come up... why not just sprinkle the word "may" all over cards. Whats even more annoying is that the rules are different for different formats. My card does two different things depending where I'm playing. Our FNM is fairly competitive as well, but since they aren't a high enough REL it doesn't matter... yah, random.
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MagicPatty Member
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posted December 21, 2011 05:20 AM
So do any cards get significantly better here? The thread starter mentions transcendence and Mind Unbound... that works right? any others?__________________ The 50,000 junk rares project! Current Count: 34,500 Trade me your bulk rares for good cards!
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