Author
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Topic: Good god what was I thinking?
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djcards Member
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posted March 31, 2012 07:27 PM
Looking back through my H/W forum, I came across this trade confirmation, and I about fell off of my chair...Hi there, I would like to offer: dream halls x4 (80) conflux x4 (40) it that betrays x4 (20) leyline of the void x4 (20) master of etherium x2 (24) brittle effigy x1 (7) dark tuteladge x1 (5) MY 196 points (master of etheriums are E v T) and one of the dream halls is signed (but i can't authenticate the signature) against your: 4x bloodghast, 1x nantuko shade 195 points Now I know why people don't trade eternal for standard. In my defense I think this was when bloodghast was at about $10... still. Let the flaming commence!
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dwiz Member
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posted March 31, 2012 07:50 PM
those point values are pretty random
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Zeckk Member
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posted March 31, 2012 09:29 PM
And people wonder why most traders stay away from point-based lists...Point-based trading is such a trap to begin with.
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ryan2754 Member
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posted March 31, 2012 10:53 PM
Depends on who it is. Filip Cec has a pretty good Points Based List__________________ -Schmitty 97th in Refs [263] on MOTL (tied with Phyrexian Angel) 4th in Refs [263] in OH-IO (2 behind Bmadsen) 2nd in Posts [7187] in OH-IO (only 1000 behind Val) “If Brad Stevens is the future of coaching in college basketball, the sport is in a good place.” - Rick Pitino
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choco man Member
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posted April 01, 2012 07:28 AM
quote: Originally posted by ryan2754: Depends on who it is. Filip Cec has a pretty good Points Based List
Are you kidding?
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Demilio Member
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posted April 01, 2012 08:08 AM
quote: Originally posted by Zeckk: And people wonder why most traders stay away from point-based lists...Point-based trading is such a trap to begin with.
I agree. You can spend the time putting together a trade, adding the points and have it declined easily.
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ryan2754 Member
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posted April 01, 2012 08:56 AM
quote: Originally posted by choco man: Are you kidding?
No. I liked it because he of course values his eternal stuff more than standard. However, because he assigns values, I was able to do a fairly large trade of my standard stuff for stuff like fetches. Instead of an argument over trading his fetches and shocks down, and what "percentag" he should receive for trading down, the deal got done. I do agree that usually they are pretty unfair (My Flooded Strand is 200 points), where yours is (150). In my list, I assign monetary values next to cards, but that's there strictly because I do buy/sell my cards and just there for my reference. Some of them are off from week to week, but they are generally ok. I've only dealt with points list roughly 2-3 times, and never had it declined. __________________ -Schmitty 97th in Refs [263] on MOTL (tied with Phyrexian Angel) 4th in Refs [263] in OH-IO (2 behind Bmadsen) 2nd in Posts [7187] in OH-IO (only 1000 behind Val) “If Brad Stevens is the future of coaching in college basketball, the sport is in a good place.” - Rick Pitino
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AGO Member
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posted April 01, 2012 10:10 AM
The only really good points list I ever seen was Gunslingas. If the points added up he would do the trade no matter what it was. Most points lists are a rip because they don't want to trade there stuff down. So most value there stuff more and yours less and you cant trade up. It's a lose lose situation.This statement right here proves it. "I know the list is in my favor but still I believe good deals can be done. I'm not trying to rip anyone - just trying to make a trade worth it for me."
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choco man Member
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posted April 01, 2012 12:44 PM
quote: Originally posted by ryan2754: No. I liked it because he of course values his eternal stuff more than standard. However, because he assigns values, I was able to do a fairly large trade of my standard stuff for stuff like fetches. Instead of an argument over trading his fetches and shocks down, and what "percentag" he should receive for trading down, the deal got done. I do agree that usually they are pretty unfair (My Flooded Strand is 200 points), where yours is (150).In my list, I assign monetary values next to cards, but that's there strictly because I do buy/sell my cards and just there for my reference. Some of them are off from week to week, but they are generally ok. I've only dealt with points list roughly 2-3 times, and never had it declined.
Filip's pts list is a joke. Sure, he "trades down" older for new......but his points are ridic. With the way he incredibly low-balls your stuff, I'm sure most MOTL'ers would be happy to give you slightly better deals and still be able to make very good profits. There was a topic in the Trade Values forum about a pts trade off of Filip's list where Filip was essentially +4 Thoughtseize on the trade and insisted that it was a good deal. Keep in mind, the deal was easily tradeable old cards for easily tradeable old cards. PS: Next time you deal with Filip Cec, you can always run the offer by me. If I have the card, I don't mind seeing if I can beat his pts list + you don't have to waste your time on int'l postage.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by choco man on April 01, 2012]
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djcards Member
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posted April 01, 2012 01:04 PM
Although it may be obvious who I was trading with, my point of posting this was not to flame that person for their trade practices. The deal is long done, it was simply humorous for me to find it knowing what I know now, and I thought others might laugh at/with me :-)
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Bagbokk Member
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posted April 01, 2012 01:16 PM
quote: Filip's pts list is a joke. Sure, he "trades down" older for new......but his points are ridic.
I can't remember how long ago, but I traded with him once--and I don't do trades that aren't either in my favor or generally even, even if it's cards that I need (with very, very, very few exceptions). I do agree that the one trade that came up in the TV forums was pretty one-sided though. I think point based lists are often unfair, but some of them are pretty decent and they've just gotten a bad enough reputation that everyone just sees point-based trading and think it's going to be stupid. I personally have no problem with people valuing the same card higher if they're trading it than if they're trading for it, so long as there are other cards that they clearly want more that are worth more.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on April 01, 2012]
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choco man Member
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posted April 01, 2012 02:06 PM
quote: Originally posted by Bagbokk: I can't remember how long ago, but I traded with him once--and I don't do trades that aren't either in my favor or generally even, even if it's cards that I need (with very, very, very few exceptions). I do agree that the one trade that came up in the TV forums was pretty one-sided though.I think point based lists are often unfair, but some of them are pretty decent and they've just gotten a bad enough reputation that everyone just sees point-based trading and think it's going to be stupid. I personally have no problem with people valuing the same card higher if they're trading it than if they're trading for it, so long as there are other cards that they clearly want more that are worth more.
Yes, stu55's pt list was very good and so is Kuleron's.
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mulder Member
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posted April 01, 2012 06:34 PM
When I see point based lists I automatically skip them. I like to do fair trades and when I see stuff likeHAVE Thoughtseize 100 points WANT Thoughtseize 20 points I feel offended.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by mulder on April 01, 2012]
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Jtrade77 Member
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posted April 01, 2012 10:34 PM
Actually point based trading is my favorite type to do. Provided the person doing the points is actually trying to trade and not profit.I find rather than dick around with prices guides, it's just easier to find value, since usually with point based, ANYTIME the points are equal, it's a trade. I loved BennieB's point based list when he had it up.
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xxxcryoserumxxx Member
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posted April 02, 2012 10:27 AM
For a point based.list what do you think is fair then. Have Geist of st traft 250Want Geist of st traft 200 It sounds better then selling to a card shop for half value.
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Devonin Member
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posted April 02, 2012 10:43 AM
Having a card on your have and want list at the same time is a problem to me even if the point values are equal.It shows that you are trading as a vendor not a player. If you're willing to get rid of a card you also are willing to take, you aren't looking for it to -use- and that is what bothers me. Outside of obvious substantial price difference (I'm not trading my hundred dollar card for your 20 dollar card no matter how little I plan to use the former, and how important the latter is to a deck) I gauge the fairness of a trade by how much more playing enjoyment I'm going to get. I'm in the middle of a trade with Filip that I'm sure is at least 20-30% in his favour financially. But I'm offloading a pile of cards I'm -never- going to use -ever- for a bunch of cards that are going right into decks I play all the time as soon as they get here, and that's perfectly fine by me.
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mm1983 Member
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posted April 02, 2012 11:24 AM
Point based systems are usually done as 1 point = $1 or x amount of points = $1. How people value their cards is a different story. I am one of the few who are in favor of point based systems when it come to either using a point based trading system or trading using someone elses point based trading system since it takes the work out of looking up values. I understand everyone needs to make a profit so I don't mind losing a little in trade value to gain in personal collection value if it saves me the time of finding the cards later on.
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Bagbokk Member
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posted April 02, 2012 11:34 AM
quote: Having a card on your have and want list at the same time is a problem to me even if the point values are equal. It shows that you are trading as a vendor not a player. If you're willing to get rid of a card you also are willing to take, you aren't looking for it to -use- and that is what bothers me.
(Edit: I actually mis-read and didn't see the part that said "even if the point values are equal." -- this makes even less sense to me. My original post below was more in response to people bashing point-based lists for having different values when the cards are on have vs. want list.) What I don't understand is why this bothers people so much--I totally understand when the values are something completely insulting (valuing your own cards 2x higher), but just a small difference doesn't bother me at all. How many cards does someone realistically need for use as a player, anyway? I know some people have 10+ decks and all, but still. When I really need cards, I don't have a problem trading slightly in their favor for them. And I feel that's the same with some people here, because I've gotten offers that were somewhat clearly slightly to moderately in my favor (and sometimes they even note that "this is a little in your favor" or whatever). The point is, offering to trade for cards you don't need encourages trading because it allows people with cards outside of the 5-6 you absolutely need for your deck to trade for cards they want from your trade stock/collection. And slightly reducing the value of these lesser-needed cards is perfectly valid. All it says is "I don't really need these cards, but if you don't have the ones I really need but you still really want something I have, I can take these."
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on April 02, 2012]
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djcards Member
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posted April 02, 2012 12:12 PM
I also support point based lists in theory. I like the idea of weighting cards based on playability from my perspective. As it has been stated, its the practice of valuing cards that you own higher than cards that others own that is annoying. I understand the requirement for dealers, but there is a big difference between 30% markup, and 100%....
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rats60 Member
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posted April 02, 2012 12:21 PM
quote: Originally posted by Devonin: It shows that you are trading as a vendor not a player. If you're willing to get rid of a card you also are willing to take, you aren't looking for it to -use- and that is what bothers me.
Why? If you don't have cards that I need, why wouldn't I trade for other cards that I can use to trade for what I need? As long as you are getting what you want, it shouldn't matter what the other person is doing with the cards that they get. This bothers you, but you will let traders make money off you by using a points based list. That doesn't make sense to me.
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Lord Crovax Member
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posted April 02, 2012 12:57 PM
quote: Originally posted by rats60: Why? If you don't have cards that I need, why wouldn't I trade for other cards that I can use to trade for what I need? As long as you are getting what you want, it shouldn't matter what the other person is doing with the cards that they get. This bothers you, but you will let traders make money off you by using a points based list. That doesn't make sense to me.
Agreed, also don't understand the hate against dealers, never have, never will. __________________ I shall have the souls of all who defy me. "Lord Crovax"
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gcowhsu Member
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posted April 02, 2012 01:08 PM
The only point of trading for points system was to trade up. That was in the past now people care about the quality of cards so they rip you off and will not trade down.
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Devonin Member
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posted April 02, 2012 02:42 PM
quote: Agreed, also don't understand the hate against dealers, never have, never will.
If you're a dealer/vendor, the profit is offset by the business license, the rent, the fixtures, the staff, the advertising budget etc etc etc. And in exchange for fronting all of these costs, and keeping a running inventory of high-demand product in a location people can access, you profit from the exchange. Most of your profit comes from a retail markup of a cheaper purchase price you got when you obtained the merchandise from the supplier because you are buying in bulk, and have the marketed image and brand supporting you. You don't make money as a store by charging me 5 dollars a pack on a 4 dollar pack. You make money charging me 4 dollars a pack on a 2 dollar pack you got because you bought 3000 packs from the supplier. All of those costs don't exist in this kind of exchange. If you the person are trading cards to me the person, insisting on a 20% margin is absurd. If you insist on a margin and I insist on a margin it is physically impossible for us to ever trade anything, so the only way we can trade is if one of us submits to losing money on the deal. tl;dr version: I have no hate for vendors at all. What I have hate for are players who insist that they get to act like vendors but nobody else does, when they aren't vendors.
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HandicapParking Member
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posted April 02, 2012 03:44 PM
That's how supply and demand works. If there are no alternative suppliers and you want something then you have to pay what the monopolist is charging.quote: Originally posted by Devonin: ...All of those costs don't exist in this kind of exchange. If you the person are trading cards to me the person, insisting on a 20% margin is absurd. If you insist on a margin and I insist on a margin it is physically impossible for us to ever trade anything, so the only way we can trade is if one of us submits to losing money on the deal. ...
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Bagbokk Member
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posted April 02, 2012 04:29 PM
quote: What I have hate for are players who insist that they get to act like vendors but nobody else does, when they aren't vendors.
I guess you hate a lot of people. Maybe it's not the vast majority or even majority, but a lot of people do trade looking to increase the value of their collection (i.e., to profit from the trade), especially when they aren't trading for stuff they need. Again, if everyone limited trading to only the stuff they needed for their decks/sets/collection, it would probably be quite difficult to get much trading done at all. People being willing to trade for filler/trade stock helps trading as a whole, regardless of how much or little they value it at.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on April 02, 2012]
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