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Author Topic:   Good god what was I thinking?
djcards
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posted March 31, 2012 07:27 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for djcards Click Here to Email djcards Send a private message to djcards Click to send djcards an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Looking back through my H/W forum, I came across this trade confirmation, and I about fell off of my chair...

Hi there,
I would like to offer:
dream halls x4 (80)
conflux x4 (40)
it that betrays x4 (20)
leyline of the void x4 (20)
master of etherium x2 (24)
brittle effigy x1 (7)
dark tuteladge x1 (5)
MY 196 points (master of etheriums are E v T) and one of the dream halls is signed (but i can't authenticate the signature)

against your:
4x bloodghast, 1x nantuko shade 195 points

Now I know why people don't trade eternal for standard.
In my defense I think this was when bloodghast was at about $10... still.

Let the flaming commence!

 
dwiz
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posted March 31, 2012 07:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
those point values are pretty random
 
Zeckk
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posted March 31, 2012 09:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
And people wonder why most traders stay away from point-based lists...

Point-based trading is such a trap to begin with.

 
ryan2754
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posted March 31, 2012 10:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
Depends on who it is.
Filip Cec has a pretty good Points Based List

__________________
-Schmitty
97th in Refs [263] on MOTL (tied with Phyrexian Angel)
4th in Refs [263] in OH-IO
(2 behind Bmadsen)
2nd in Posts [7187] in OH-IO
(only 1000 behind Val)

“If Brad Stevens is the future of coaching in college basketball, the sport is in a good place.” - Rick Pitino

 
choco man
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posted April 01, 2012 07:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by ryan2754:
Depends on who it is.
Filip Cec has a pretty good Points Based List


Are you kidding?

 
Demilio
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posted April 01, 2012 08:08 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Demilio Click Here to Email Demilio Send a private message to Demilio Click to send Demilio an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Demilio's Have/Want ListView Demilio's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Zeckk:
And people wonder why most traders stay away from point-based lists...

Point-based trading is such a trap to begin with.


I agree. You can spend the time putting together a trade, adding the points and have it declined easily.

 
ryan2754
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posted April 01, 2012 08:56 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
Are you kidding?


No. I liked it because he of course values his eternal stuff more than standard. However, because he assigns values, I was able to do a fairly large trade of my standard stuff for stuff like fetches. Instead of an argument over trading his fetches and shocks down, and what "percentag" he should receive for trading down, the deal got done.
I do agree that usually they are pretty unfair (My Flooded Strand is 200 points), where yours is (150).

In my list, I assign monetary values next to cards, but that's there strictly because I do buy/sell my cards and just there for my reference. Some of them are off from week to week, but they are generally ok.

I've only dealt with points list roughly 2-3 times, and never had it declined.

__________________
-Schmitty
97th in Refs [263] on MOTL (tied with Phyrexian Angel)
4th in Refs [263] in OH-IO
(2 behind Bmadsen)
2nd in Posts [7187] in OH-IO
(only 1000 behind Val)

“If Brad Stevens is the future of coaching in college basketball, the sport is in a good place.” - Rick Pitino

 
AGO
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posted April 01, 2012 10:10 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AGO Click Here to Email AGO Send a private message to AGO Click to send AGO an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AGO's Trade Auction or SaleView AGO's Trade Auction or Sale
The only really good points list I ever seen was Gunslingas. If the points added up he would do the trade no matter what it was. Most points lists are a rip because they don't want to trade there stuff down. So most value there stuff more and yours less and you cant trade up. It's a lose lose situation.

This statement right here proves it.

"I know the list is in my favor but still I believe good deals can be done. I'm not trying to rip anyone - just trying to make a trade worth it for me."

 
choco man
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posted April 01, 2012 12:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by ryan2754:
No. I liked it because he of course values his eternal stuff more than standard. However, because he assigns values, I was able to do a fairly large trade of my standard stuff for stuff like fetches. Instead of an argument over trading his fetches and shocks down, and what "percentag" he should receive for trading down, the deal got done.
I do agree that usually they are pretty unfair (My Flooded Strand is 200 points), where yours is (150).

In my list, I assign monetary values next to cards, but that's there strictly because I do buy/sell my cards and just there for my reference. Some of them are off from week to week, but they are generally ok.

I've only dealt with points list roughly 2-3 times, and never had it declined.


Filip's pts list is a joke. Sure, he "trades down" older for new......but his points are ridic.

With the way he incredibly low-balls your stuff, I'm sure most MOTL'ers would be happy to give you slightly better deals and still be able to make very good profits.

There was a topic in the Trade Values forum about a pts trade off of Filip's list where Filip was essentially +4 Thoughtseize on the trade and insisted that it was a good deal. Keep in mind, the deal was easily tradeable old cards for easily tradeable old cards.

PS: Next time you deal with Filip Cec, you can always run the offer by me. If I have the card, I don't mind seeing if I can beat his pts list + you don't have to waste your time on int'l postage.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by choco man on April 01, 2012]

 
djcards
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posted April 01, 2012 01:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for djcards Click Here to Email djcards Send a private message to djcards Click to send djcards an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Although it may be obvious who I was trading with, my point of posting this was not to flame that person for their trade practices. The deal is long done, it was simply humorous for me to find it knowing what I know now, and I thought others might laugh at/with me :-)
 
Bagbokk
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posted April 01, 2012 01:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Filip's pts list is a joke. Sure, he "trades down" older for new......but his points are ridic.

I can't remember how long ago, but I traded with him once--and I don't do trades that aren't either in my favor or generally even, even if it's cards that I need (with very, very, very few exceptions). I do agree that the one trade that came up in the TV forums was pretty one-sided though.

I think point based lists are often unfair, but some of them are pretty decent and they've just gotten a bad enough reputation that everyone just sees point-based trading and think it's going to be stupid. I personally have no problem with people valuing the same card higher if they're trading it than if they're trading for it, so long as there are other cards that they clearly want more that are worth more.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on April 01, 2012]

 
choco man
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posted April 01, 2012 02:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Bagbokk:
I can't remember how long ago, but I traded with him once--and I don't do trades that aren't either in my favor or generally even, even if it's cards that I need (with very, very, very few exceptions). I do agree that the one trade that came up in the TV forums was pretty one-sided though.

I think point based lists are often unfair, but some of them are pretty decent and they've just gotten a bad enough reputation that everyone just sees point-based trading and think it's going to be stupid. I personally have no problem with people valuing the same card higher if they're trading it than if they're trading for it, so long as there are other cards that they clearly want more that are worth more.


Yes, stu55's pt list was very good and so is Kuleron's.

 
mulder
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posted April 01, 2012 06:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mulder Click Here to Email mulder Send a private message to mulder Click to send mulder an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
When I see point based lists I automatically skip them. I like to do fair trades and when I see stuff like

HAVE
Thoughtseize 100 points

WANT
Thoughtseize 20 points

I feel offended.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by mulder on April 01, 2012]

 
Jtrade77
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posted April 01, 2012 10:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Jtrade77 Send a private message to Jtrade77 Click to send Jtrade77 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Actually point based trading is my favorite type to do. Provided the person doing the points is actually trying to trade and not profit.

I find rather than dick around with prices guides, it's just easier to find value, since usually with point based, ANYTIME the points are equal, it's a trade.

I loved BennieB's point based list when he had it up.

 
xxxcryoserumxxx
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posted April 02, 2012 10:27 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for xxxcryoserumxxx Click Here to Email xxxcryoserumxxx Send a private message to xxxcryoserumxxx Click to send xxxcryoserumxxx an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View xxxcryoserumxxx's Have/Want ListView xxxcryoserumxxx's Have/Want List
For a point based.list what do you think is fair then.
Have
Geist of st traft 250

Want
Geist of st traft 200

It sounds better then selling to a card shop for half value.

 
Devonin
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posted April 02, 2012 10:43 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
Having a card on your have and want list at the same time is a problem to me even if the point values are equal.

It shows that you are trading as a vendor not a player. If you're willing to get rid of a card you also are willing to take, you aren't looking for it to -use- and that is what bothers me.

Outside of obvious substantial price difference (I'm not trading my hundred dollar card for your 20 dollar card no matter how little I plan to use the former, and how important the latter is to a deck) I gauge the fairness of a trade by how much more playing enjoyment I'm going to get.

I'm in the middle of a trade with Filip that I'm sure is at least 20-30% in his favour financially. But I'm offloading a pile of cards I'm -never- going to use -ever- for a bunch of cards that are going right into decks I play all the time as soon as they get here, and that's perfectly fine by me.

 
mm1983
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posted April 02, 2012 11:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
Point based systems are usually done as 1 point = $1 or x amount of points = $1. How people value their cards is a different story. I am one of the few who are in favor of point based systems when it come to either using a point based trading system or trading using someone elses point based trading system since it takes the work out of looking up values. I understand everyone needs to make a profit so I don't mind losing a little in trade value to gain in personal collection value if it saves me the time of finding the cards later on.
 
Bagbokk
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posted April 02, 2012 11:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Having a card on your have and want list at the same time is a problem to me even if the point values are equal.
It shows that you are trading as a vendor not a player. If you're willing to get rid of a card you also are willing to take, you aren't looking for it to -use- and that is what bothers me.

(Edit: I actually mis-read and didn't see the part that said "even if the point values are equal." -- this makes even less sense to me. My original post below was more in response to people bashing point-based lists for having different values when the cards are on have vs. want list.)

What I don't understand is why this bothers people so much--I totally understand when the values are something completely insulting (valuing your own cards 2x higher), but just a small difference doesn't bother me at all. How many cards does someone realistically need for use as a player, anyway? I know some people have 10+ decks and all, but still.

When I really need cards, I don't have a problem trading slightly in their favor for them. And I feel that's the same with some people here, because I've gotten offers that were somewhat clearly slightly to moderately in my favor (and sometimes they even note that "this is a little in your favor" or whatever). The point is, offering to trade for cards you don't need encourages trading because it allows people with cards outside of the 5-6 you absolutely need for your deck to trade for cards they want from your trade stock/collection. And slightly reducing the value of these lesser-needed cards is perfectly valid. All it says is "I don't really need these cards, but if you don't have the ones I really need but you still really want something I have, I can take these."

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on April 02, 2012]

 
djcards
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posted April 02, 2012 12:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for djcards Click Here to Email djcards Send a private message to djcards Click to send djcards an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I also support point based lists in theory. I like the idea of weighting cards based on playability from my perspective. As it has been stated, its the practice of valuing cards that you own higher than cards that others own that is annoying. I understand the requirement for dealers, but there is a big difference between 30% markup, and 100%....
 
rats60
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posted April 02, 2012 12:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for rats60 Click Here to Email rats60 Send a private message to rats60 Click to send rats60 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View rats60's Have/Want ListView rats60's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
It shows that you are trading as a vendor not a player. If you're willing to get rid of a card you also are willing to take, you aren't looking for it to -use- and that is what bothers me.

Why? If you don't have cards that I need, why wouldn't I trade for other cards that I can use to trade for what I need? As long as you are getting what you want, it shouldn't matter what the other person is doing with the cards that they get. This bothers you, but you will let traders make money off you by using a points based list. That doesn't make sense to me.

 
Lord Crovax
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posted April 02, 2012 12:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rats60:
Why? If you don't have cards that I need, why wouldn't I trade for other cards that I can use to trade for what I need? As long as you are getting what you want, it shouldn't matter what the other person is doing with the cards that they get. This bothers you, but you will let traders make money off you by using a points based list. That doesn't make sense to me.

Agreed, also don't understand the hate against dealers, never have, never will.

__________________
I shall have the souls of all who defy me. "Lord Crovax"

 
gcowhsu
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posted April 02, 2012 01:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for gcowhsu Click Here to Email gcowhsu Click to send gcowhsu an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gcowhsu's Trade Auction or SaleView gcowhsu's Trade Auction or Sale
The only point of trading for points system was to trade up. That was in the past now people care about the quality of cards so they rip you off and will not trade down.
 
Devonin
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posted April 02, 2012 02:42 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
quote:
Agreed, also don't understand the hate against dealers, never have, never will.

If you're a dealer/vendor, the profit is offset by the business license, the rent, the fixtures, the staff, the advertising budget etc etc etc. And in exchange for fronting all of these costs, and keeping a running inventory of high-demand product in a location people can access, you profit from the exchange. Most of your profit comes from a retail markup of a cheaper purchase price you got when you obtained the merchandise from the supplier because you are buying in bulk, and have the marketed image and brand supporting you.

You don't make money as a store by charging me 5 dollars a pack on a 4 dollar pack. You make money charging me 4 dollars a pack on a 2 dollar pack you got because you bought 3000 packs from the supplier.

All of those costs don't exist in this kind of exchange. If you the person are trading cards to me the person, insisting on a 20% margin is absurd. If you insist on a margin and I insist on a margin it is physically impossible for us to ever trade anything, so the only way we can trade is if one of us submits to losing money on the deal.

tl;dr version: I have no hate for vendors at all. What I have hate for are players who insist that they get to act like vendors but nobody else does, when they aren't vendors.

 
HandicapParking
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posted April 02, 2012 03:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for HandicapParking Click Here to Email HandicapParking Send a private message to HandicapParking Click to send HandicapParking an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
That's how supply and demand works. If there are no alternative suppliers and you want something then you have to pay what the monopolist is charging.

quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
...

All of those costs don't exist in this kind of exchange. If you the person are trading cards to me the person, insisting on a 20% margin is absurd. If you insist on a margin and I insist on a margin it is physically impossible for us to ever trade anything, so the only way we can trade is if one of us submits to losing money on the deal.

...


 
Bagbokk
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posted April 02, 2012 04:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
What I have hate for are players who insist that they get to act like vendors but nobody else does, when they aren't vendors.

I guess you hate a lot of people. Maybe it's not the vast majority or even majority, but a lot of people do trade looking to increase the value of their collection (i.e., to profit from the trade), especially when they aren't trading for stuff they need. Again, if everyone limited trading to only the stuff they needed for their decks/sets/collection, it would probably be quite difficult to get much trading done at all. People being willing to trade for filler/trade stock helps trading as a whole, regardless of how much or little they value it at.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on April 02, 2012]

 

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