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Originally posted by Zeckk:
It's pretty clear we are talking past one another when I point out examples to counter your argument (shade vs. pool) and you simply brush them off as a "single example". I'm not going to hold your hand and point out every single reprint and gauge it as successful or not when I've already spelled out the rubric, which is playability.

Eternal staples are, by definition, playable cards. It would take a rather unique meta in which a current legacy staple would be considered unplayable in the standard meta. To reinforce that point, even if a card WAS deemed unworthy in standard, WotC would be praised for printing a card that has obvious value in an established format.

Secondly, arguing that it's OK for candelabra's to be 150 a pop because JoeFNM can sleeve up a couple PDS Fire and Lightning decks is a strawman argument. The real issue is having the majority of the value of any given legacy deck tied up in a manabase that is on the reserved list. It sets up legacy for a slow death without some sort of intervention from WotC.

This is where the argument for Modern reprints comes into play. Spell snare is a fringe card in legacy and modern, yet it's low supply has resulted in a ridiculous secondary market price. So I pose this question to you - Are you making the argument that reprints aren't a good marketing decision for WotC? Disregarding reprints is short-sighted because "new cards" either replace existing cards in established decks, allow the creation of new archetypes, or meet neither criteria and simply become bulk trash. That's fine for standard, since that's the essence of a rotating format, but WotC has consistently run into issues when it comes to maintaining a healthy eternal format.

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If "playable" is your rubric, that's fine for you. You just don't realize how unclear that rubric is. It's also a poor rubric which I outlined with my Reflecting Pool example. If past tournament success/play-ability was the rubric, City of Brass would have gotten the nod over Reflecting Pool.

Since you so often like to outline logical fallacies, how about your slippery slope of: "WotC would be praised for printing a card that has obvious value in an established format." That obviously isn't true. Case in point, Meddling Mage. WOTC doesn't "earn" praise by copping out and just reprinting stuff. Certainly not from me. If their reprints are good/timely (such as Rav-duals, sure) but how could you just simply say that WOTC gets praise for reprinting stuff?

You want to argue that Legacy needs reprints....so you illustrate your own point with a "straw-man" that you yourself bring up? I completely blasted your Candelabra point. Yes, I killed the horrible example that you used. Maybe someone should hold your hand? If Candle is such a straw man, why use it to illustrate your point? Me bringing up how burn won back-to-back SCG opens is important. More Legacy decks show up in the T8 than in standard and not every deck is relatively expensive.

1000+ players show up for Legacy GP's, what death are you talking about? Are those 1000+ players going anywhere b/c cards are expensive? Honestly, cost is not as much of a barrier as you make it out to be. There's enough people who have gotten into Legacy no matter the cost...even if it meant trading in all of their standard to do so.

Having expensive cards is not as much an issue as you make it to be. Look at the attendance of Proxy vintage tournaments, they're not bursting at the seams. If DCI held tourneys where participants could use 75 proxies, do you think attendance would balloon? It goes beyond just costs.

I know that Spell Snare is expensive, so what? That's not a good rubric on which to decide when to reprint cards. Back in the days, Goblin Lackey was Spell Snare price and Spell Snare important. WOTC did reprint it in a limited way. What impact did it have on Legacy? Absolutely none. WOTC had a much bigger impact on the format printing new cards (eg Tarmogoyf, printing new fetches instead of reprinting old ones). WOTC printing more new individual cards is much more impactful than them simply increasing the supply of old cards you can already obtain/play.

I am not disregarding reprints. I am disregarding reprints when the issue comes to price.

Reprints are an important marketing decision. It shouldn't come lightly because they use equity they built up in their brand. Their decisions should definitely not be governed by people who whine about price.

Scars of Mirrodin was the return to mirrodin. Lets looks at those reprints:

disperse
-trinket mage
bloodshot trainee
-shatter
-copper myr
-gold myr
-iron myr
-leaden myr
-mindslaver
-silver myr
-Plains
-Island
-Swamp
-Mountain
-Forest

-leonin skyhunter
phyrexian rager
divine offering

enslave
evil presence
phyrexian hulk

Now lets looks at the cards from the original mirrodin block that could possibly be reprinted due to staple value. To expand the possible card pool for this I took every card from the block that starcitygames sees as playable enough to warrent a price tag of $5 of greater. (already generous then add the starcity inflation)

Aether vial (legacy/modern)
Arcbound ravager (legacy/modern)
blinkmoth nexus (legacy/modern)
chalice of the void (legacy/modern)
Chrome mox (legacy)
cruciable of worlds (legacy/modern)
darksteel forge (Other eternal)
engineered explosives (legacy/modern)
extraplanar lens (Other eternal)
gilded lotus (Other eternal)
glimmervoid (legacy/modern)
isochron scepter (legacy/modern)
mind's eye (Other eternal)
myconsynth golem (Other eternal)
myconsynth Lattice (Other eternal)
Solemn simulcrum (legacy/modern)
staff of domination (Other eternal)
sword of fire and ice (legacy/modern)
sword of light and shadow (legacy/modern)
tooth and nail (Other eternal)
vedalken shackles (legacy/modern)

so comparing the two lists, how many got reprinted in the correlating block? hmm.... It appears the grand total is 0.

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Originally posted by Numotflame96:
I love that assumed correlation with returning to ravnica and reprints.

Scars of Mirrodin was the return to mirrodin. Lets looks at those reprints:

disperse
-trinket mage
bloodshot trainee
-shatter
-copper myr
-gold myr
-iron myr
-leaden myr
-mindslaver
-silver myr
-Plains
-Island
-Swamp
-Mountain
-Forest

-leonin skyhunter
phyrexian rager
divine offering

enslave
evil presence
phyrexian hulk

Now lets looks at the cards from the original mirrodin block that could possibly be reprinted due to staple value. To expand the possible card pool for this I took every card from the block that starcitygames sees as playable enough to warrent a price tag of $5 of greater. (already generous then add the starcity inflation)

Aether vial (legacy/modern)
Arcbound ravager (legacy/modern)
blinkmoth nexus (legacy/modern)
chalice of the void (legacy/modern)
Chrome mox (legacy)
cruciable of worlds (legacy/modern)
darksteel forge (Other eternal)
engineered explosives (legacy/modern)
extraplanar lens (Other eternal)
gilded lotus (Other eternal)
glimmervoid (legacy/modern)
isochron scepter (legacy/modern)
mind's eye (Other eternal)
myconsynth golem (Other eternal)
myconsynth Lattice (Other eternal)
Solemn simulcrum (legacy/modern)
staff of domination (Other eternal)
sword of fire and ice (legacy/modern)
sword of light and shadow (legacy/modern)
tooth and nail (Other eternal)
vedalken shackles (legacy/modern)

so comparing the two lists, how many got reprinted in the correlating block? hmm.... It appears the grand total is 0.

A card being a staple has 0 impact what so ever on reprinting a card. Cards are reprinted based on set themes or wizards trying to create a certain environment and those cards happen to fit into those slots. stuff like small pox, grim lavamancer, lightning bolt...ect weren't printed because they were "staples". i don't see how any of those are staples in eternal formats besides possibly lightning bolt which was and is easy to get a hold of but also barring that, none of those are the cards that drive the prices of eternal formats. Cards that wizards reprints for the sake of reprinting go in the creation of FTV. Wizards doesn't just toss things into sets for the sake of adding more of them into the market for certain formats, simple as that. It is perfectly fine to disregard reprints as a mode for keeping a format alive or based on pricetags. However much I would love to be able to draft the shocklands or Bob again, There is currently nothing to give any hint that they would be reprinted.

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Are you serious? Saying a card wasn't reprinted because it wasn't in the "Return block" is asinine. A bunch of those chase cards were reprinted in special sets/promos/core sets, including solemn, both swords, isochron scepter, crucible of worlds (imagine the price of that sucker if it didn't see core set reprinting...), and aether vial. Mindslaver was a much higher value card during the rise of popularity of EDH, and actually maintained a value above $5 until ZEN block rotated and the format shifted towards aggro-control.

If anything, you're reinforcing my point that WotC has a history of using high-value staples to generate demand for their product. And of the rest of the cards you listed as "not seeing a reprint", only blinkmoth nexus, glimmervoid, and ravager see any kind of demand issues due to their presence as 4-ofs in the most popular Modern deck.

And guess what? FtV: Realms is set to come out this summer. Care to make a wager on whether or not Glimmervoid or Blinkmoth Nexus is included?

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Are you serious? Saying a card wasn't reprinted because it wasn't in the "Return block" is asinine. A bunch of those chase cards were reprinted in special sets/promos/core sets, including solemn, both swords, isochron scepter, crucible of worlds (imagine the price of that sucker if it didn't see core set reprinting...), and aether vial. Mindslaver was a much higher value card during the rise of popularity of EDH, and actually maintained a value above $5 until ZEN block rotated and the format shifted towards aggro-control.

If anything, you're reinforcing my point that WotC has a history of using high-value staples to generate demand for their product. And of the rest of the cards you listed as "not seeing a reprint", only blinkmoth nexus, glimmervoid, and ravager see any kind of demand issues due to their presence as 4-ofs in the most popular Modern deck.

And guess what? FtV: Realms is set to come out this summer. Care to make a wager on whether or not Glimmervoid or Blinkmoth Nexus is included?

Bob has seen promo reprinting, but much of Ravnica block is conspicuously absent from special product reprints, hence the relatively high value of eternal staples from that block.

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You completely missed my point. Wizards reprints stuff. They don't just toss things into expansion sets just for the hell of it.
If you read what you just said, cards are reprinted in "special sets/promos/core sets"
all of those are based an reprinting things. expansion sets are as their name suggests, expansions. the idea is to add new cards to the game. they only put in reprints if it fits the planned spaces for those slots anyway.

http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Ravnica%3A+City+of+Guilds/

I am a fan of Numotflame. Scars of Mirrodin reprinted useful, flavorful things that fit well. That's the example we should use to predict the types of things reprinted in the next set, if it is a return to Ravnica.

quote:

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Originally posted by Numotflame96:

Aether vial (legacy/modern)
Arcbound ravager (legacy/modern)
blinkmoth nexus (legacy/modern)
chalice of the void (legacy/modern)
Chrome mox (legacy)
cruciable of worlds (legacy/modern)
darksteel forge (Other eternal)
engineered explosives (legacy/modern)
extraplanar lens (Other eternal)
gilded lotus (Other eternal)
glimmervoid (legacy/modern)
isochron scepter (legacy/modern)
mind's eye (Other eternal)
myconsynth golem (Other eternal)
myconsynth Lattice (Other eternal)
Solemn simulcrum (legacy/modern)
staff of domination (Other eternal)
sword of fire and ice (legacy/modern)
sword of light and shadow (legacy/modern)
tooth and nail (Other eternal)
vedalken shackles (legacy/modern)

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I'm sorry, but can you define "Other eternal"? Because none of those cards see play in the true eternal format of Vintage.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I'm sorry, but can you define "Other eternal"? Because none of those cards see play in the true eternal format of Vintage.

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EDH. Several of those cards carry a higher price tag because they are used in Commander, which is considered an eternal format.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by Devonin:
To assume they will reprint the shock duals simply because we're back on Ravnica assumes that by the time we come back to Ravnica there even -are- guilds, let alone guilds that are two-colour pairings, and -all- two colour pairings.

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The lore has the guilds still in existence, though they hardly control the plane the way they had before the guildpact was broken. Also, the guilds weren't exactly tied to the lands, since the lands were given intentionally generic names so that reprinting them in the future wouldn't be a hassle in terms of lore.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
but it's pretty funny to see how vehemently people try to contradict a logical assumption. Shocklands first saw print in ravnica + WotC officially stating that they intend to reprint modern staples in the near future = SHOCKLANDS COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE REPRINTED IN RETURN TO RAVNICA!!!111!!1!!!

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That's not what anyone has said, but don't let that stop you from trying to show off how smart you think you are!

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Originally posted by Bugger:
That's not what anyone has said, but don't let that stop you from trying to show off how smart you think you are!

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Dude, look at the post by devonin that I quoted. There's no correlation between the guilds and the shocklands, period. Shocklands and signets were placed in the original ravnica block because gold/hybrid blocks necessitate solid mana fixing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Dude, look at the post by devonin that I quoted.

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You mean this one.

quote:

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Originally posted by Devonin:
To assume they will reprint the shock duals simply because we're back on Ravnica assumes that by the time we come back to Ravnica there even -are- guilds, let alone guilds that are two-colour pairings, and -all- two colour pairings.

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The one where he doesn't equivocally state that the shocklands are not going to be reprinted.

As to the personal attack (I'm glad you didn't incorrectly label it an ad hominem), it's pretty obvious that you're looking to pick a fight about things, considering nearly every post I've seen you make has been unfailingly argumentative. Maybe it's not worth it to be needlessly confrontational to people on the internet?

#thefewthingsmoreridiculousthanreprintingshocklands

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
I also hope it's not a "gold" block. We've had a LOT of those, and yes, they are fun and whatever, but can't we have some other gimmicks first?

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Since all 10 2-color combos were represented, I would guess 3 color guilds may show up, most likely different from the Alara ones.

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At this point I'd be more excited for the other 3 color combo triad lands that ETBT, than more Rav duals.