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Author
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Topic: MTG Commander's Arsenal !
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rats60
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 09:24 AM
        
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
Once more I get angry at a secondary market and a parent company that will sell an item at a wholesale price based around an MSRP and a reasonable markup, and then the store decides to just arbitrarily write in another several hundred percent profit with no penalty or issue.
Once more I get angry at the sharks who think this game only exists so they can get something for next to nothing and come out way ahead. Stores don't just arbitrarily price their product, such as FTV. The price is set by the market, supply and demand. If a store overprices his product, it doesn't sell, the customer buys it elsewhere. How many booster boxes do you buy from your local store at MSRP? In another thread on here, people are screaming bloody murder because their store charges too much over the internet price for boxes, even though it is way under MSRP. You can't have it both ways. If stores are allowed to order whatever they want, products drop in price and people are willing to work on smaller margins. When products are extremely limited, you should understand the margins may be greater. Your local store would much rather get 100 of these sets and make 20.00 each by selling them under MSRP than get 2 and charge above MSRP. For whatever reason WOTC has decided that this set is going to be limited. You need to grow up and understand that is the way the world works. This is not unique to MTG.
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Soupboy
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 09:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CoupDeGrace:
MSRP: $75
Release Date: Nov 2 2012
quote:
Originally posted by Soupboy:
Do we have a release date yet?The Soup
So apparently I'm an idiot. I was reading a lot of random RtR and Commander posts that day :-) On the idea of oversized Commanders, I haven't seen many people use them, although I like them in theory. Many of us use a different color sleeve for our Commanders, which also makes tuck and return to hand a challenge. Using an oversized Commander and then any sort of token in a regular sleeve is just as good. That being said, I would LOVE to see a generic "Commander" token to be used for just such a purpose. The Soup
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Devonin
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 03:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rats60:
Once more I get angry at the sharks who think this game only exists so they can get something for next to nothing and come out way ahead.
Because I want cards to play Magic with, and have fun using them, no intention to resell them, no intention to open the pack, take a couple cards, and trade the rest at a profit, no intention to buy two, use one and sell one six months later, I'm a shark trying to get "something for nothing"?I want to buy a company's product at that company's suggested retail price, to use that product. quote:
Stores don't just arbitrarily price their product, such as FTV. The price is set by the market, supply and demand. If a store overprices his product, it doesn't sell, the customer buys it elsewhere.
The problem certainly lays with WOTC super under-producing something that is obviously high-demand and would easily support a much higher print run. But regardless, they have sold the product to the store at a price built around giving them a healthy margin at MSRP. Access to information online leads to pretty much all retailers having basically agreed beforehand what their retail price will be, so there's hardly any competition either.quote:
How many booster boxes do you buy from your local store at MSRP? In another thread on here, people are screaming bloody murder because their store charges too much over the internet price for boxes, even though it is way under MSRP. You can't have it both ways.
I don't want it both ways. I buy my booster boxes at my LGS all the time. I'm looking to go in on a case of RTR from my LGS as well. quote:
If stores are allowed to order whatever they want, products drop in price and people are willing to work on smaller margins. When products are extremely limited, you should understand the margins may be greater. Your local store would much rather get 100 of these sets and make 20.00 each by selling them under MSRP than get 2 and charge above MSRP.
what about AT MSRP? The problem here is, as you said above, the sharks who are only interested in these cards BECAUSE they are limited, so they can sit on them and try to flip them for profit on eBAY. But I'm not one of those people. I'm someone who wants 75 dollars worth of cards to cost 75 dollars, so I can have fun with my friends with some cool cards.quote:
For whatever reason WOTC has decided that this set is going to be limited. You need to grow up and understand that is the way the world works. This is not unique to MTG.
I can't think of many places I've ever shopped that sell items that come with an MSRP supplied by the manufacturer that sell higher than that MSRP.
[Edited 2 times, lastly by Devonin on September 09, 2012]
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mtglover
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 04:34 PM
What he is saying is that the current suggested retail price of a booster pack is $3.99 and if you're currently paying below that price due excessive supply and competition, then you should expect to pay more than the suggested retail price of $75 for this product due to limited supply.
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Vegas10
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 05:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rats60:
Once more I get angry at the sharks who think this game only exists so they can get something for next to nothing and come out way ahead.
Because I want cards to play Magic with, and have fun using them, no intention to resell them, no intention to open the pack, take a couple cards, and trade the rest at a profit, no intention to buy two, use one and sell one six months later, I'm a shark trying to get "something for nothing"?I want to buy a company's product at that company's suggested retail price, to use that product. quote:
Stores don't just arbitrarily price their product, such as FTV. The price is set by the market, supply and demand. If a store overprices his product, it doesn't sell, the customer buys it elsewhere.
The problem certainly lays with WOTC super under-producing something that is obviously high-demand and would easily support a much higher print run. But regardless, they have sold the product to the store at a price built around giving them a healthy margin at MSRP. Access to information online leads to pretty much all retailers having basically agreed beforehand what their retail price will be, so there's hardly any competition either.quote:
How many booster boxes do you buy from your local store at MSRP? In another thread on here, people are screaming bloody murder because their store charges too much over the internet price for boxes, even though it is way under MSRP. You can't have it both ways.
I don't want it both ways. I buy my booster boxes at my LGS all the time. I'm looking to go in on a case of RTR from my LGS as well. quote:
If stores are allowed to order whatever they want, products drop in price and people are willing to work on smaller margins. When products are extremely limited, you should understand the margins may be greater. Your local store would much rather get 100 of these sets and make 20.00 each by selling them under MSRP than get 2 and charge above MSRP.
what about AT MSRP? The problem here is, as you said above, the sharks who are only interested in these cards BECAUSE they are limited, so they can sit on them and try to flip them for profit on eBAY. But I'm not one of those people. I'm someone who wants 75 dollars worth of cards to cost 75 dollars, so I can have fun with my friends with some cool cards.quote:
For whatever reason WOTC has decided that this set is going to be limited. You need to grow up and understand that is the way the world works. This is not unique to MTG.
I can't think of many places I've ever shopped that sell items that come with an MSRP supplied by the manufacturer that sell higher than that MSRP.[/QUOTE] MSRP means manufacturers suggestedretail price, that is not a law or requirement, it is a suggestion, WOTC or Hasbro doesn't pay the bills for the brick and mortar stores so if they can make more moeny to either pay bills or reinvest in the business by selling the product at a higher price it would be bad business not to do so. The only way raising the price above MSRP would be bad is if you can't sell it at that high a price, which is why alot of places offer discounts on Booster boxes because they could never sell those at MSRP, and since the retail stores don't decide how much of a product WOTC produces if demand outwieghs supply they should try to get what they can, this is basic business principle, or the invisible hand theory.
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rats60
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 07:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
I don't want it both ways. I buy my booster boxes at my LGS all the time. I'm looking to go in on a case of RTR from my LGS as well. I'm someone who wants 75 dollars worth of cards to cost 75 dollars, so I can have fun with my friends with some cool cards.
I noticed that you ignored my question. Are you goiing to buy 6 boxes of RTR at 144.00/box from your local store? Or are you expecting your store to sell them to you for less? If you are willing to pay full retail on the RTR, I would ask the store if you agree to buy X boxes of RTR at 144, can you buy 1 Arsenal at 75. The store make ~420 profit on the case at ~30 profit on the Arsenal. Seems fair. If you are expectin a discount on the RTR, you should be willing to pay fair market on the Arsenal. Seems fair. The problem with wanting to buy 75 dollars worth of cards for 75 dollars is that the cards are almost always worth more or less than MSRP. I would bet that the reason this set is so limited is that there is going to be a lot more than 75.00 worth of cards in the set. What you are really saying is that you want to pay 75 dollars for 150-200 dollars worth of cards. Why should you be the one to get a deal on one of their two sets?
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Devonin
Member
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posted September 09, 2012 10:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rats60:
I noticed that you ignored my question.Are you goiing to buy 6 boxes of RTR at 144.00/box from your local store? Or are you expecting your store to sell them to you for less? If you are willing to pay full retail on the RTR, I would ask the store if you agree to buy X boxes of RTR at 144, can you buy 1 Arsenal at 75. The store make ~420 profit on the case at ~30 profit on the Arsenal. Seems fair. If you are expectin a discount on the RTR, you should be willing to pay fair market on the Arsenal. Seems fair. The problem with wanting to buy 75 dollars worth of cards for 75 dollars is that the cards are almost always worth more or less than MSRP. I would bet that the reason this set is so limited is that there is going to be a lot more than 75.00 worth of cards in the set. What you are really saying is that you want to pay 75 dollars for 150-200 dollars worth of cards. Why should you be the one to get a deal on one of their two sets?
Well for one: Booster boxes don't have an MSRP. They are manufactured and intended to be opened by a LGS and sold as single packs for 3.99 each. The fact that sealed boxes are sold for cheaper than that isn't about "dealing with competition" it's about offering customers a discount to buy in bulk. I'm the general manager of a business that sells goods, and we discount bulk purchases often as high as 20%+ for bulk purchase, because we like to reward customers for buying large amounts of product, by lowering our margin and making it up on volume. And that is counting from a margin that isn't nearly as good too. So yes, I expect when they sell booster packs for 3.99 and I'm looking to buy 216 booster packs, that they will extend to me a premium because of the volume. That is a totally different situation from the difference between a single item's MSRP and that single item undergoing a huge markup beyond that. For two: Cards only have secondary market value if traded or sold. If I buy the cards for 75 dollars, they are "worth" 75 dollars. The fact that I -could- get 150 dollars for them is irrelevant if I have no intention of doing so. If it makes you feel better, I'm just as annoyed at WOTC for saying "We don't consider the secondary market when we decide what/when/how much to print" and then so obviously consider the secondary market when they make something like this.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Devonin on September 09, 2012]
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junichi
Moderator
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posted September 09, 2012 10:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
Well for one: Booster boxes don't have an MSRP. They are manufactured and intended to be opened by a LGS and sold as single packs for 3.99 each. The fact that sealed boxes are sold for cheaper than that isn't about "dealing with competition" it's about offering customers a discount to buy in bulk. I'm the general manager of a business that sells goods, and we discount bulk purchases often as high as 20%+ for bulk purchase, because we like to reward customers for buying large amounts of product, by lowering our margin and making it up on volume. And that is counting from a margin that isn't nearly as good too.So yes, I expect when they sell booster packs for 3.99 and I'm looking to buy 216 booster packs, that they will extend to me a premium because of the volume. That is a totally different situation from the difference between a single item's MSRP and that single item undergoing a huge markup beyond that. For two: Cards only have secondary market value if traded or sold. If I buy the cards for 75 dollars, they are "worth" 75 dollars. The fact that I -could- get 150 dollars for them is irrelevant if I have no intention of doing so. If it makes you feel better, I'm just as annoyed at WOTC for saying "We don't consider the secondary market when we decide what/when/how much to print" and then so obviously consider the secondary market when they make something like this.
A solution to your problem would be an increase in MSRP to match with the expected market price, so people who wants to flip it for profit won't be able to, and people who wants it badly will get to buy one, but that means you will also have to pay a lot more. At the end, the stores will still get the same or greater amount, and you have zero chance of scoring a cheap one.
__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 ChampionLife is hard; it's harder if you're stupid.
John Wayne
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rats60
Member
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posted September 10, 2012 03:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
Well for one: Booster boxes don't have an MSRP. They are manufactured and intended to be opened by a LGS and sold as single packs for 3.99 each. The fact that sealed boxes are sold for cheaper than that isn't about "dealing with competition" it's about offering customers a discount to buy in bulk. I'm the general manager of a business that sells goods, and we discount bulk purchases often as high as 20%+ for bulk purchase, because we like to reward customers for buying large amounts of product, by lowering our margin and making it up on volume. And that is counting from a margin that isn't nearly as good too.So yes, I expect when they sell booster packs for 3.99 and I'm looking to buy 216 booster packs, that they will extend to me a premium because of the volume. That is a totally different situation from the difference between a single item's MSRP and that single item undergoing a huge markup beyond that. For two: Cards only have secondary market value if traded or sold. If I buy the cards for 75 dollars, they are "worth" 75 dollars. The fact that I -could- get 150 dollars for them is irrelevant if I have no intention of doing so. If it makes you feel better, I'm just as annoyed at WOTC for saying "We don't consider the secondary market when we decide what/when/how much to print" and then so obviously consider the secondary market when they make something like this.
I get it. You are a hypocrite. You want the store to sell for less than MSRP when it is to your advantage. You want the store to sell for MSRP when it is to their advantage. Boxes do have an MSRP of 144.00. Stores can't buy MTG by the pack, they have to buy by the box. The thing that you don't understand is that MSRP isn't designed for the retail customer. Magic cards aren't supposed to sell for MSRP. The reason that WOTC puts a MSRP on every product is to determine what to charge their distributors and stores that buy from them. As soon as the product is released it is up to the free market to set the price. The problem that I have with people like you is that you don't undserstand the system is to your advantage. You are better off paying market price than MSRP, but still you complain. You are what is wrong with this game. I deal with local players like you all the time. If you don't like the way WOTC does their game, just quit. It is a game to be played for fun. For people like you, it's all about money. If the Arsenal costs too much for you, don't buy it. The cards are all reprints anyway. Just shut up and spare the rest of us trying to enjoy this game your drama.
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Devonin
Member
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posted September 10, 2012 08:04 AM
So just so I'm clear: You are 100% wrong about my motives, motivations, and the type of person I am.quote:
Originally posted by rats60:
I get it. You are a hypocrite. You want the store to sell for less than MSRP when it is to your advantage. You want the store to sell for MSRP when it is to their advantage.
Not even remotely. I want the store to sell for MSRP. I pay 4 dollars for booster packs when I buy one booster pack. I expect to pay less than 4 dollars for a booster pack when I am buying over 200 at once, in exactly the same way that I do, myself, in my business, offer volume discounts to people who buy a large amount at once. quote:
Boxes do have an MSRP of 144.00. Stores can't buy MTG by the pack, they have to buy by the box.
That's just the volume that single packs come to them from the supplier, because of costs of freight, shipping, and the way rares and mythics are distributed in packs. The box is still clearly labelled that it is a booster pack display box, designed to be opened, and the contents sold by the single pack. The MSRP of Magic is -roughly- 4.00/pack Just because the packs come in a box of 36 packs doesn't mean the box has an MSRP, and again, I'm not talking about "I'm buying a box" I'm talking about "I'm buying 36/72/109/144 packs." Just because the supplier does me the solid of not making me pick up 200+ loose packs doesn't create this imaginary new single product with an imaginary new MSRP.quote:
The thing that you don't understand is that MSRP isn't designed for the retail customer. Magic cards aren't supposed to sell for MSRP.
Then you need to learn what the "RP" stands for. Given that it is "RETAIL PRICE" to say "The retail price isn't supposed to be the suggested retail price" just makes you look silly.Go to Wal-mart or Target or some other chain retail store some day, and look around in sports, or toys, or some other department where the products tend to come in their own pre-made packaging, and compare the listed MSRP to the shelf price. Then come tell me that MSRP isn't what the manufacturer is actually telling you to sell the item for. I suppose you could try making the claim that MTG is unique in the entire world of retail in that the producer has made up MSRP from whole cloth with no intention that it be followed. quote:
The reason that WOTC puts a MSRP on every product is to determine what to charge their distributors and stores that buy from them. As soon as the product is released it is up to the free market to set the price.
For once, you're -technically- correct. Even a stated price on the outside of a store advertising the cost of a product is not actually binding. It is an 'invitation to deal' and technically, a business has the ability to price any item at anything they want within certain very specific anti-trust exceptions. However, as to my above point, for every one single product you can show me that is commonly sold above MSRP (Which honestly, outside 'Magic the Gathering limited production premium items' I can't think of a single thing) I can bring you to large chain stores with thousands and thousands of items that are sold for -exactly- their MSRP. quote:
The problem that I have with people like you is that you don't undserstand the system is to your advantage. You are better off paying market price than MSRP, but still you complain.
The system where I pay MSRP for everything except the items where the store has decided to just triple their profit to take advantage of scarcity is to my advantage? quote:
It is a game to be played for fun.
I am an entirely casual, plays only for fun player. I am exactly the opposite kind of player from the one you've magically divined I am. If you're so bad at determining anything about me, why should I trust any of your other conclusions?quote:
For people like you, it's all about money.
This is the most hilariously wrong thing you've said all day. This is the exact opposite of true. If I cared about the money, I'd be lining up to be one of the 2 people per store who can buy this, regardless of the inflated price, because I could keep it sealed, wait a month, and flip it for a profit. I absolutely do NOT care about the money. I care about having neat shiny cards in my neat shiny deck to play a fun game with my friends. My frustration is that because of the high markup being slapped onto this product solely because of its scarcity, it is going to drive up the price of the cards, the price of the box, and almost all the copies are going to be sold to investors and speculators, who will sit on them, and then try to maximize their own profit margins on top of the already maximized profit margins. And then the people who actually just want the cards to play magic with their friends simply won't have them, or will have to trade/buy them at some big premium "just because" quote:
The cards are all reprints anyway. Just shut up and spare the rest of us trying to enjoy this game your drama.
You're the only one creating drama here buddy, because you decided to take "It bugs me that they print only a tiny amount of these cards, so stores can get away with quadrupling their profits above what their markup is normally" and turn it into "You're a stupid idiot who represents everything wrong with magic" If you think I'm not going to defend myself from personal attacks because -you- attack -me- and then tell -me- to be quiet and leave it alone, then you're even less reasonable than I thought you might be.
[Edited 3 times, lastly by Devonin on September 10, 2012]
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MagicPatty
Member
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posted September 19, 2012 06:21 AM
With all this fuss, just a quick inquiry... FTV Realms has an MSRP of 35 bucks, but sells for 75. Lets suppose they altered the MSRP to 75 bucks, while still selling the product to the store for the same amount. Would that be reasonable? __________________
Starting the bulk rare collection all over! Send them my way!
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nderdog
Moderator
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posted September 19, 2012 07:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
Go to Wal-mart or Target or some other chain retail store some day, and look around in sports, or toys, or some other department where the products tend to come in their own pre-made packaging, and compare the listed MSRP to the shelf price. Then come tell me that MSRP isn't what the manufacturer is actually telling you to sell the item for. I suppose you could try making the claim that MTG is unique in the entire world of retail in that the producer has made up MSRP from whole cloth with no intention that it be followed.
So you must be against any store doing something as disgusting as having a sale, blatantly ignoring that ever-so-critical MSRP, right? If you were a store and discovered a box of Beta that had been lost for years, obviously, you must price it at whatever the MSRP was back then, right? Suggested means exactly that. Or do you think that the suggested price should only matter when it benefits the consumer, not the store? __________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please! Report rules violations. Remember the Auctions Board!
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Volcanon
Member
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posted September 19, 2012 08:11 AM
Sheesh, just don't buy it if its too expensive. I always get singles from FTV type sets that usually totals less than the MSRP for everything I want anyway.This set is 100% reprints. Just buy the two or three cards you actually want and save money. Its not like many of the spoiled cards are all that interesting anyway. Foil versions of last year's generals? Booring.
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