I'm not sure I understand how WOTC is "legally" obligated to their own self created policy. They've changed the reprint policy numerous times over the years, (last time being 2010?) what is legally stopping them from doing it again if they wanted to?

"One common belief about how it came out that Hasbro's legal department quashed the conversation doesn't really stand on legs. Briefly put an essential part of a lawsuit is proving damages and that would be a very strange proposition to handle. There was no contract between Wizards and you the player. Contracts have specific ingredients that are not present in the Reserved List. It could potentially be considered a warranty but then again it would likely only be a warranty if you purchased the cards directly from them and not the secondary market. The most credible legal threat is that the sheer cost of repelling a class-action lawsuit though that can be mitigated by a good corporate counsel. So to sum up I don't think it was a legal fiat handed down from within Wizards or its parent company. "

The author of this article speculated on a few things contributing to this, including the emergence of a new format which we obviously now know as Modern.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demilio:
It doesn't seem that there was a legal reason at all. According to this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=19046)

"One common belief about how it came out that Hasbro's legal department quashed the conversation doesn't really stand on legs. Briefly put an essential part of a lawsuit is proving damages and that would be a very strange proposition to handle. There was no contract between Wizards and you the player. Contracts have specific ingredients that are not present in the Reserved List. It could potentially be considered a warranty but then again it would likely only be a warranty if you purchased the cards directly from them and not the secondary market. The most credible legal threat is that the sheer cost of repelling a class-action lawsuit though that can be mitigated by a good corporate counsel. So to sum up I don't think it was a legal fiat handed down from within Wizards or its parent company. "

The author of this article speculated on a few things contributing to this, including the emergence of a new format which we obviously now know as Modern.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:
Yeah...except for the part where, in responding to questions about the reserved list on his tumblr, rosewater has repeatedly (to the point of even *him* losing the near-infinite reserves of patience he has) said that they can't break the reserved list, that they tried, they've been stopped, and that's never going to change, and they're not allowed to say any more about it than that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demilio:
Can you provide a link to any of this?

---

When I have an hour to kill, sure, ill troll rosewater's tumble for you, Jesus. Dude doesn't tag anything and its the *one* topic he has announced he's no longer answering questions about.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:
When I have an hour to kill, sure, ill troll rosewater's tumble for you, Jesus. Dude doesn't tag anything and its the *one* topic he has announced he's no longer answering questions about.

---

Not everyone here reads that. Why don't actually add something useful to this thread by showing some credibility in backing up what you say.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demilio:
Not everyone here reads that. Why don't actually add something useful to this thread by showing some credibility in backing up what you say.

---

Well, some clutch googling turned this up, but getting more examples is gonna take a variable amount of time. Again, dude has no way of categorizing his posts.

Enjoy, sweetie:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/38101444910/why-is-it-a-dead-end-magic-has-done-hundreds-of-things

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:
There was a huge ****storm after Phyrexian Negator was printed in the duel deck. This led to wotc being approached by a group of lawyers representing collectors and other unnamed parties and now they have clarified the reserved list to include the premium clause and, for the last time, their bosses aren't letting them break the reserved list for fear of a successful lawsuit and they can't change that.
God, it's astounding that nobody paid attention to this when it happened. Bleating about the reserved list now accomplishes jack squat.

---

Amazes me people refuse to accept this happened.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:
Yeah...except for the part where, in responding to questions about the reserved list on his tumblr, rosewater has repeatedly (to the point of even *him* losing the near-infinite reserves of patience he has) said that they can't break the reserved list, that they tried, they've been stopped, and that's never going to change, and they're not allowed to say any more about it than that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
Amazes me people refuse to accept this happened.

---

Doesn't seem amazing when you consider most people that play magic aren't even aware of the reserve list, let alone the circumstances of its creation. It really doesn't help that whatever NDA WotC is working under prevents them from explaining the specifics of the reserve list. The SCG article linked above doesn't take into account the possibility that a consortium of dealers/distributors/collectors forced WotC into a legal agreement that prevents them from altering the reserve list in perpetuity.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeckk:
Doesn't seem amazing when you consider most people that play magic aren't even aware of the reserve list, let alone the circumstances of its creation. It really doesn't help that whatever NDA WotC is working under prevents them from explaining the specifics of the reserve list. The SCG article linked above doesn't take into account the possibility that a consortium of dealers/distributors/collectors forced WotC into a legal agreement that prevents them from altering the reserve list in perpetuity.

With that said, if such a thing were true, it would be a pretty epic fail on the part of WotC's legal team for agreeing to such conditions, especially in perpetuity. SPECULATION - WotCs 20th anniversary celebration is the expiration of such a legal agreement, and M14 now contains moat, duals, etc.

---

Not knowing, and refusal to accept are two different things, I can understand not knowing, but refusing to accept it happened, is just Naive.

As for it going away, doubtful, whole point to the Legal Action was WoTC didn't want to waste money on court costs, had nothing to do with winning or losing. Was just enough very big money groups threatening suite, and WoTC legal team deciding it wasn't worth it to fight them.

Modern is a juggernaut, standard is huge and EDH is a casual freight train. What format is the reserved list hobbling? Not any of the formats making the most money for WotC.

quote:

---

Originally posted by keywacat:
As I recall WotC voluntarily came up with the reserved list after Chronicles, and promised they would never reprint those cards in an identical form again. Therefore breaking the reserved list is breaking a public promise that many people have relied on in building their collections. To alter that promise now will open the company to, at the least, legal distractions.

Modern is a juggernaut, standard is huge and EDH is a casual freight train. What format is the reserved list hobbling? Not any of the formats making the most money for WotC.

This topic won't die, it strikes too deep an emotional response in people. Even as I write this I realize my words aren't going to sway anyone wishing for a change in the reprint policy. Sure, things change, but this won't change until an immortal agency (a corporation) feels the time is right.

---

This seems about right...

Also seems holding strong against it seems....a waste? Nothing any of us can say will change WoTC mind on it, so seems like wasted effort.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
This seems about right...

Also seems holding strong against it seems....a waste? Nothing any of us can say will change WoTC mind on it, so seems like wasted effort.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by keywacat:
Don Quixote is a powerful avatar one does not easily relinquish, my dear Lord Crovax.

---

This might be the most astute observation in the whole thread.

If a group of magic dealers (I like to call the the Magic Mafia) did pressure WOTC into signing a contract that made the reserve list legally binding it would be in that groups' own best interest to make that knowledge public. Prices would go up if such a deal were made public.

Do you think that perhaps Channel Fireball would have been part of the Magic Mafia? Here's an editorial from them in 2010 basically saying that Wizards could ignore the list if they wanted to. The article was published the same month that the Wizard's changed the policy. http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-keeping-the-reserve-list/

quote:

---

I don't intend to discuss whether Wizards can change its mind regarding a promise it made to its customers (it certainly can), what matters here is whether it should. What are the consequences of abolishing the reserve list?

---

Going back further in time (2003) we find an article that might explain the origin of this rumor about the Magic Mafia. It's also from the biggest(?) dealer of magic cards on the secondary market. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/finance/24792-I-Hate-The-Reserved-List.html

quote:

---

Personally I believe that the reserved list in its current form is no longer a necessity.
...
Two years ago thanks to a massive amount of pressure from the community Wizards staff had a meeting with a select group of players collectors and storeowners to discuss what to do with the reserved list. Ultimately even though nearly everyone in R&D wanted to abolish the list Wizards decided that they could not break the promise that they made all those years ago. The prevailing theory is that the Hasbro legal department was worried about lawsuits from collectors over falling secondary market prices but that's just conjecture.

---

And another source from Starcity games admitting that Startcity is AGAINST the reserve list.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19011-The-Magic-Show-181-The-Reserve-List-Scars-of-Mirrodin.html

quote:

---

Let's not forget that Wizards of the Coast flew out StarCityGames.com' own Ben Bleiweiss and Stephen Menendian to Renton Washington a few weeks ago to discuss their thoughts on the Reserve List. And Ben and Steve were in agreement: Get rid of it. It serves no purpose other than to restrict the ability for Wizards of the Coast to create awesome products like From the Vault:Exiled and was created in a time when reprints lowered the value of their earlier printings rather than steady or increase them which is what happens today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeckk:
With that said, if such a thing were true, it would be a pretty epic fail on the part of WotC's legal team for agreeing to such conditions, especially in perpetuity. SPECULATION - WotCs 20th anniversary celebration is the expiration of such a legal agreement, and M14 now contains moat, duals, etc.

---

Just what we should expect from noobs and Speed Demons. At a time when their game was dying, WOTC makes promises to Distributors, Dealers and a lesser extent Collectors to get them to invest in their company and game. How is that an epic fail? The game was built on the Reserved List. Without it MTG could be like Star Wars or Star Trek CCGs, dead.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rats60:
Just what we should expect from noobs and Speed Demons. At a time when their game was dying, WOTC makes promises to Distributors, Dealers and a lesser extent Collectors to get them to invest in their company and game. How is that an epic fail? The game was built on the Reserved List. Without it MTG could be like Star Wars or Star Trek CCGs, dead.

Now that MTG is successful, cry babies who don't want to invest of the game are crying for cheap cards. Who should WOTC listen to? The ones who helped build the company and game and spend money with WOTC or those who think it is their right to play the game and spend little to no money on MTG? The Reserved List has made WOTC millions if not billions of dollars, it is not going away.

---

Is you collection worth close to six digits? If it's not, you're not qualified to comment on who is against the reserve list.

My only concern was to make the game last; as it stands right now, it may or may not; the message the company sent was "we don't care about the players who caused this debate in the first place; we care only about [an unnamed entity] who may or may not have forced us into some sort of settlement.

Nobody gave two ****s about the reserve list when they were printing Foil Intuition, Gaea's Cradle, Deranged Hermit, Yawgmoth's Will, etc etc. Where were those proponents of keeping the list?

Cards being expensive so you can trade them for other expensive cards is one thing. But the people who are against abolishing the reserve list because they treat magic cards as actually being the same kind of investment that stocks in a company are, just flabbergasts me.

Dual Lands are not an RRSP, and anybody who is actually treating Magic Cards like an RRSP or a Down payment on a house, or an as yet unborn child's college fund are being -incredibly- stupid with their life planning.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Devonin:
My problem is the fact that Wizards is somehow being expected to actually cater to people for whom Magic Cards are treated as a literal part of their financial life-plan.

Cards being expensive so you can trade them for other expensive cards is one thing. But the people who are against abolishing the reserve list because they treat magic cards as actually being the same kind of investment that stocks in a company are, just flabbergasts me.

Dual Lands are not an RRSP, and anybody who is actually treating Magic Cards like an RRSP or a Down payment on a house, or an as yet unborn child's college fund are being -incredibly- stupid with their life planning.

And when technology gets to where all of these games are done cheaply, in fully immersive VR or whatever big serious tech shift is going to happen, and every single card becomes WORTHLESS overnight, we'll see how far a lawsuit gets when you claim that otherwise valueless pieces of paper that had some internal fungible value of two thousand dollars is actually grounds for you to demand that value out of Hasbro.

---

By the time tech hits that point, card games will be the least of our worries...the hundreds if not thousands of companies going out of business over night seems more a issue.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr.C:
Is you collection worth close to six digits? If it's not, you're not qualified to comment on who is against the reserve list.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rats60:
Close to? LOL. I must be the expert according to you. The rest of your post is just garbage.

---