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Originally posted by rats60:
You didn't vote with your wallet. Why didn't you just sell your cards and leave the game? The problem is that the issue has been decided. Sure WOTC tried to adjust the reserved list in the past to make both sides happy, but when that didn't work, they closed the topic for good. I'll belittle you because are like a poor sport who has lost, but can't accept the fact that you have lost.

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Because I like having them around, to be honest. Unlike you, if the game stopped tomorrow and the cards became worthless, I would just shrug. Sure, it would be nice to have been able to sell these cards for some real money, just as it would be nice to have the money I have sunk into my car, but I like having them around fro the enjoyment I still get out of playing with some of them, and just having the other look pretty in the binders.

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Originally posted by Mr.C:
Because I like having them around, to be honest. Unlike you, if the game stopped tomorrow and the cards became worthless, I would just shrug. Sure, it would be nice to have been able to sell these cards for some real money, just as it would be nice to have the money I have sunk into my car, but I like having them around fro the enjoyment I still get out of playing with some of them, and just having the other look pretty in the binders.

Lastly, I didn't "lose". I'm not competing with you or anyone. I have a strong opinion, and it is too bad the company and a segment of stakeholders don't agree with me. Tough ****, as they say, but it won't change my opinion. I will continue to say how Wizards screwed over a segment of very passionate players. What can I do? It's the truth.

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Let me preface this by saying I have a pretty significant collection, and probably about half of it resides on the reserve list (and it's not just a big pile of Pixie Queens). The only new cards I buy are for decks. And since I only like old frame stuff, I would have no use for reprinted duals or power.

With that said, I believe the reserve list has served its purpose and run its course. I understand the circumstances behind its original creation, but the state of the game has changed a lot since then, such that I don't think it's relevant anymore, in fact it seems detrimental. I think now though with the number of people wanting to play Legacy, it would be beneficial to everyone to increase the supply of staples. The value of my collection may take a short term hit, but for the health of the game and thus long term value, I think it would be a good thing.

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Originally posted by theqissilent:
Has everyone forgotten zendikar? They could always go back to zendikar and do more hidden treasures. They did it once and can always do it again. It was a true loophole they could exploit again. Plus there are still first print run packs out there! Go buy those fat packs!

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a) What was it? 1 card in every 720 pack?
b) They didn't create new cards. They used the cards WOTC employees had to play test.

__________________
Collecting signed cards. PM me...

Total signed cards: >34'000

my stuff

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Originally posted by Markers:
b) They didn't create new cards. They used the cards WOTC employees had to play test.[/B]

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
Ehh, to me, the whole point of argument AGAINST the reserved list comes down MAINLY to one thing: MONEY.

Back when I got into Magic in 2009, duals were still very cheap, and I didn't hear any complaints about the reserved list. Now that duals are super expensive, people start coming out of the woods and complaining. And the funny thing is, there are a lot of duals out there that it shouldn't present that much of a barrier into the format. Sure, it will cost a little bit and may take some efforts, but people just want to be handed cheap stuff.

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This is the heart of why the argument for keeping the reserve list is incorrect. The "money" from having legacy staples on the reserve list benefits WotC in no form or fashion. The price barrier for legacy (somebody please argue that there isn't a price barrier for legacy, I need a laugh today) stifles the popularity of the format to the point that SCG has had to drop legacy opens from multiple sites for the upcoming year, simply because the turnout can't cover the prize support for the event.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
interesting. The rumor I heard was they contacted SCG to buy them.

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Originally posted by Bugger:
For what it's worth, I respect your relatively mature response to someone who's acting like a child who thinks he's king of the hill.

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Originally posted by rats60:
This is funny coming from you. Defending a company's decisions which are best for the company and its game is childish. However, someone complaining because they can't have cheap cards is not. LOL.

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Man, for someone who's been here for so long, your reading comprehension sucks.

I want others to have cheap cards so me and the people who can afford to buy the expensive versions can continue to enjoy Legacy.

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Originally posted by rats60:
This is funny coming from you. Defending a company's decisions which are best for the company and its game is childish. However, someone complaining because they can't have cheap cards is not. LOL.

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I understand it makes you feel like a big man to be rude and insulting while discussing a card game, but as long as you're stroking yourself over how many people you've strawmanned, at least bother to pay attention to what you're reading. Otherwise you come off as even more of an egotistical ass than you already have.

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Originally posted by rats60:
This is funny coming from you. Defending a company's decisions which are best for the company and its game is childish. However, someone complaining because they can't have cheap cards is not. LOL.

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You missed the mark here. Your opinion isn't what is childish its how you phrase your posts. I'm not attacking you, but you should know that through your posts you're coming across as overly aggressive and because of so, childish and really not that intelligent.

My real contribution to this topic is just a reiteration of what many have said before me.
1.) When it's profitable enough it'll happen. That's the simple fact. Even if they are legal bound to someone/something over the reserved list money can change that.

2.)I'm not a fan of the reserved list. Wizards knows enough to not reprint valuable cards in excess, thus the value won't be totally lost. I understand collector's worries, but I'm not a collector. Like Mr. C if magic died tomorrow I would more or less be ok, just a little bummed.

I just don't want to see a format like legacy die and it seems to be moving that way. The only people i know that play legacy are those I started playing magic with. One of the local stores around me were begging people to come to their legacy events. The request they got was to increase the amount of proxy cards one was allowed to use, because the actual cards are too much.

I consider myself and average magic player. My collection might be worth a couple of thousand. Nothing too spectacular, but I have most cards I want. However my most expensive deck tips the scale at just over 350, and do you know what is the most expensive part of the deck?

The lands :-/

Also, clearly WOTC got legal advice telling them to stop encroaching on the reserve list. It's totally not hard to see this. Just read between the lines for Maro on every single time he answers a question about it. My guess would be that once stuff like Berserk started showing up in the FTV boxes they got a letter from some collector's lawyer telling them to quit it. Even a silly lawsuit is very expensive, remember.

Yes, and this is regardless of the fact that if nobody wanted these cards, most presently expensive cards would be worthless.

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Originally posted by Mr.C:
Man, for someone who's been here for so long, your reading comprehension sucks.

I want others to have cheap cards so me and the people who can afford to buy the expensive versions can continue to enjoy Legacy.

Is that clear enough for you?

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Originally posted by rats60:
And I want the company to continue what they are doing so the game continues to thrive, and not die, as it has since the Reserved List. Cheap cards are not good for WOTC and in the long run not good for MTG.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Arguing that the reserve list is still a net positive for WotC is a hard sell, given WotC's own public stance on the list, as well as the current trend of legacy events seeing smaller turnouts from last year.

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Don't confuse WOTC's public stance with that of a few of their employees. WOTC clearly believes that the Reserve List is best for the company and the game. That is why they made a hard stand and higher ups have told lower level employees not to even discuss the matter anymore.

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Originally posted by rats60:
We have had this discussion many times before. There are 300K+ duals. That is more than enough to support the Legacy player base. There are other factors above and beyond player or collector demand causing the current prices.

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To elaborate on those "other factors" - Legacy staple hoarding brought about by the existence of the reserve list. As you yourself said, the pricing on things like U.Sea doesn't match up with the theoretical supply on the market. The reserve list's mere existence means that price fixing is not only possible, it's likely. This also encourages other shady practices like counterfeiting, re-backing, inking, etc. Such things would occur without the reserve list, but not to the degree they currently happen.

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Originally posted by rats60:
Don't confuse WOTC's public stance with that of a few of their employees. WOTC clearly believes that the Reserve List is best for the company and the game. That is why they made a hard stand and higher ups have told lower level employees not to even discuss the matter anymore.

Even the employee(s) who favor getting rid of the list are opposed to what those like Mr C want to see happen. If they were able to reprint cards like dual lands, they would want the print run to be small so that it wouldn't hurt the value of those cards.

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That's a good one. Forsythe and MaRo are clearly puppets with no input on matter, aside from random public grumblings. No one's arguing that the legal team is saying keep the reserve policy in place, but any speculation on your part regarding decision makers vs. employees is just that - speculation. We have not heard a single public response from WOTC (the company, not the employees) defending the reserve policy since it's original inception. The only public comments have been made by high-level, public faces of the company (weird, right?) stating that while the reserve list was a mistake, it's one they have to live with for the forseeable future.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
That's a good one. Forsythe and MaRo are clearly puppets with no input on matter, aside from random public grumblings. No one's arguing that the legal team is saying keep the reserve policy in place, but any speculation on your part regarding decision makers vs. employees is just that - speculation. We have not heard a single public response from WOTC (the company, not the employees) defending the reserve policy since it's original inception. The only public comments have been made by high-level, public faces of the company (weird, right?) stating that while the reserve list was a mistake, it's one they have to live with for the forseeable future.

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Originally posted by rats60:
Nice straw man. I never said that Forsythe or MaRo had no imput, but your claim that they are speaking for the company and not stating their personal opinion is laughable. Your assumption that it is the legal team calling the shots is also laughable. You completely ignore the financial people at Hasbro. MTG is Hasbro's top selling brand, and as such, decissions like this are going to be made at the highest level. If Hasbro thought that they would make more money without the Reserve List and with it, it would be gone today.

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By all means, rats, link us ANYTHING official from the "financial people" regarding the reserve policy. I'm dead serious. I'll concede the point immediately if you can show us a single document showing that "the financial people" view the reserve policy as a sound financial decision beyond the original announcement of the reserve list.

Forsythe and MaRo are WotC's public representatives. You keep pushing the reserve list decision makers into increasingly nebulous terms, yet the most recognizable faces of WotC have repeatedly gone on record in interviews and statements that the reserve policy is a net negative for MtG. Even the history of WotC designing reprints and cards that brush up against the reserve policy indicate that WotC made a short-sighted decision after chronicles, and some sort of legal agreement is constricting their ability to put out a product on their own terms.

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Originally posted by Markers:
a) What was it? 1 card in every 720 pack?
b) They didn't create new cards. They used the cards WOTC employees had to play test.

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Originally posted by theqissilent:
They also promised they wouldn't print a card that said planeswalker in the text, then we got dreadbore....

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Not the same thing, not even close.

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Originally posted by theqissilent:
Agreed, I was merely pointing out that promises had been made in the past that they have welched on

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Difference though between Won't and Can't.