quote:

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
You seriously think bargain is safe to unban?

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quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
About as safe as griselbrand, only harder to cheat out. Probably a higher win percentage once it's out than griselbrand. I can't really think of anything that would abuse it heavily enough to completely dominate the format if that's what you are asking

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TES and other storm variants would become incredibly consistent.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
About as safe as griselbrand, only harder to cheat out. Probably a higher win percentage once it's out than griselbrand. I can't really think of anything that would abuse it heavily enough to completely dominate the format if that's what you are asking

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Bargain lets you find answers 1 card at a time, much easier to abuse.

quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
About as safe as griselbrand, only harder to cheat out. Probably a higher win percentage once it's out than griselbrand. I can't really think of anything that would abuse it heavily enough to completely dominate the format if that's what you are asking

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
TES and other storm variants would become incredibly consistent.

As for banning Griselbrand - SnT and reanimator decks were already having good success with Jin Gitaxis, as that was the first fatty with a massive CA potential. Like I said earlier, I don't think anything is going to be banned unless the meta shifts even more towards SnT/Reanimator decks.

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Yes, with the addition of the bargain in the format, some decks will be better

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
Bargain lets you find answers 1 card at a time, much easier to abuse.

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I am not arguing that griselbrand is better, just that with what's currently legal, yawgmoth's bargain isn't going to be the end of legacy

quote:

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Originally posted by mulder:
Academy Rector.

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quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
Are you planning on flash-ing it in or something?

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quote:

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
Cabal Therapy

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So
T1: swamp therapy
T2: plains ritual rector flashback therapy

Unbanning Bargain wouldn't do much at all to the meta. We could actually use a skill-intensive deck in the format. At least you need a brain to pilot ANT, unlike pretty much every other deck in the format.

I seriously wish Wizards would just reprint expensive staples so that it was less expensive to build decks that you want to play. I would love to play High Tide, for example, but don't have $750-1000 to blow on Candles, etc.

1 is show n tell and omniscience
2 charbelcher
3 elfs
4 forget but reanimated his deck like eggs and then pulls a creature out to do like 30 damage.with out attacking,

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Originally posted by Link139232:
SnT isn't even close to oppressive.

Unbanning Bargain wouldn't do much at all to the meta. We could actually use a skill-intensive deck in the format. At least you need a brain to pilot ANT, unlike pretty much every other deck in the format.

I seriously wish Wizards would just reprint expensive staples so that it was less expensive to build decks that you want to play. I would love to play High Tide, for example, but don't have $750-1000 to blow on Candles, etc.

That statement is more tailored to Vintage, which is pretty much a nonexistent format now.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
Why doesn't everyone want something banned? How about we unban some stuff, like mind twist, earthcraft or yawgmoth's bargain? But seriously, wizards only ban stuff that the people don't see coming, like BBE or seething song. So if they were to ban something for the SaT deck, it would probably be ancient tomb or lotus petal

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Wow....I thought you were this genius who knew how to play Magic.

Unban Bargin, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft? Really?

Ok...we are talking about Griselbrand being a problem...so let's unban a card that's the same, but worse for you if it hits play. Harder to kill, and can draw in increments of 1.

Mind Twist. Yup. Real fun card to play against. Most people ban it in cubes. Enough said. You like going into topdeck mode on turn 2 with zero cards in hand, and possibly no lands in play? Bc I know I wont.

Then Earthcraft....as yes, Earthcraft. You're another idiot who thinks this card should be unbanned. Right.....let's not only unban Bargin, but let's also unban Earthcraft in a format that has Cradle, Sanctum, Replenish, and Opalescence......

Congradulations, you are now officially MOTL's biggest Speed Demon.

Please think before you spew out a rhetorical question like that. People(with a brain) don't ask for those to be unbanned, bc we've lived through that epidemic of stupidly broken cards/combo decks already once in our lives.

quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
About as safe as griselbrand, only harder to cheat out. Probably a higher win percentage once it's out than griselbrand. I can't really think of anything that would abuse it heavily enough to completely dominate the format if that's what you are asking

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Marginally harder to cheat out, exceptionally more difficult to beat once in play. The card isn't "safe" by any stretch of the imagination...and should never see the light of day again.

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Originally posted by daner:
Then Earthcraft....as yes, Earthcraft. You're another idiot who thinks this card should be unbanned. Right.....let's not only unban Bargin, but let's also unban Earthcraft in a format that has Cradle, Sanctum, Replenish, and Opalescence......

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Originally posted by keywacat:
I've only played against Earthcraft as part of a friend's Elf deck where he put Wild Growths and such on his forests. Why would Earthcraft matter with Cradle or Sanctum? It only affects basic lands, and as I understand it most Legacy / Vintage decks don't have many basics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by caquaa:
I assure you, if you were to be able to play earthcraft in legacy, that deck would certainly be running a large amount of basics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by daner:
Wow....I thought you were this genius who knew how to play Magic.

Unban Bargin, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft? Really?

Ok...we are talking about Griselbrand being a problem...so let's unban a card that's the same, but worse for you if it hits play. Harder to kill, and can draw in increments of 1.

Mind Twist. Yup. Real fun card to play against. Most people ban it in cubes. Enough said. You like going into topdeck mode on turn 2 with zero cards in hand, and possibly no lands in play? Bc I know I wont.

Then Earthcraft....as yes, Earthcraft. You're another idiot who thinks this card should be unbanned. Right.....let's not only unban Bargin, but let's also unban Earthcraft in a format that has Cradle, Sanctum, Replenish, and Opalescence......

Congradulations, you are now officially MOTL's biggest Speed Demon.

Please think before you spew out a rhetorical question like that. People(with a brain) don't ask for those to be unbanned, bc we've lived through that epidemic of stupidly broken cards/combo decks already once in our lives.

Marginally harder to cheat out, exceptionally more difficult to beat once in play. The card isn't "safe" by any stretch of the imagination...and should never see the light of day again.

How about not even cheating it out...just playing like multiple rituals, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Bargin...with possibly Daze/FOW backup in hand. Turn 1, GG. Thanks for scooping before you take a turn.

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Earthcraft is fine. It's okay for combos to exist outside of U/B/R. We just spent 1.5pages arguing if the blue card that can basically win the game the turn you play it is okay, why wouldn't earthcraft be okay. It would be a competitive strategy, but not an overpowered one (by legacy standards).

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Originally posted by daner:
Wow....I thought you were this genius who knew how to play Magic.

Unban Bargin, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft? Really?

Ok...we are talking about Griselbrand being a problem...so let's unban a card that's the same, but worse for you if it hits play. Harder to kill, and can draw in increments of 1.

Mind Twist. Yup. Real fun card to play against. Most people ban it in cubes. Enough said. You like going into topdeck mode on turn 2 with zero cards in hand, and possibly no lands in play? Bc I know I wont.

Then Earthcraft....as yes, Earthcraft. You're another idiot who thinks this card should be unbanned. Right.....let's not only unban Bargin, but let's also unban Earthcraft in a format that has Cradle, Sanctum, Replenish, and Opalescence......

Congradulations, you are now officially MOTL's biggest Speed Demon.

Please think before you spew out a rhetorical question like that. People(with a brain) don't ask for those to be unbanned, bc we've lived through that epidemic of stupidly broken cards/combo decks already once in our lives.

Marginally harder to cheat out, exceptionally more difficult to beat once in play. The card isn't "safe" by any stretch of the imagination...and should never see the light of day again.

How about not even cheating it out...just playing like multiple rituals, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Bargin...with possibly Daze/FOW backup in hand. Turn 1, GG. Thanks for scooping before you take a turn.

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Due to my weak karma, I can't give you what you do deserve so I will stick to the points. I am very sure that the only reason why those cards are not banned is because R&D want to control the % of combos in the meta and maybe some "fun" factors.

Earthcraft - people thought land tax was going to be big...what happened? 2 card 5 mana combos that don't win on the same turn isn't good in legacy. Does the card make elves or some other variant better? of course, but definitely not enough to wreck the format

Mind Twist - we have something that cost one more and it sees no play. How big is that one mana? Very big, but not enough to go from unplayable to banned worthy. Here's an excercise, take an unplayable card and shave off a color mana, tell me which one of card would be banned worth

bargain - probably the most borderline of the 3, but since griselbrand can win turn 2-3 pretty consistently, I don't see a bargain deck beating that speed. But do I think bargain is better than griselbrand? Of course I do, but do I think it's gonna bring back combo winter? Not at all

But if you insist that any of the above is completely wrong, please give me a rough list of what you think would break the format? Nothing extravagent but a little better than

quote:

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How about not even cheating it out...just playing like multiple rituals, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Bargin...with possibly Daze/FOW backup in hand. Turn 1, GG. Thanks for scooping before you take a turn.

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And please read the cards as well, none of this either

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Then Earthcraft....as yes, Earthcraft. You're another idiot who thinks this card should be unbanned. Right.....let's not only unban Bargin, but let's also unban Earthcraft in a format that has Cradle, Sanctum, Replenish, and Opalescence......

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It's +1 cc, but they can't Spell Pierce it. And you don't have to risk your tournament life to draw the right answers/pieces.

They did ban Mystical Tutor after they unbanned Entomb, since you could Mystical for Entomb/Show&Tell (making Reanimator too consistent). Or you could have built your deck with LED's instead of Reanimates and Mystical for Ad Naus. That beat people on the same turn instead of waiting a whole turn like Reanimator did.

And you can Show&Tell it which Ad Naus isn't eligible for. Academy Rector it. Could even side it esper mirror? Since Counterbalance only hits it on Terminus?

If you're all for keeping Show&Tell around (ie keeping ban list small and be able to play your cards) it seems reasonable to be against a unbanning on Bargain. Bargain is a pretty ridiculous permanent to have in play. It's much better than Land Tax, so it's lubricious to say "ohhh....but Land Tax didn't do nothin'" Land Tax and Bargain are not in the same league.

If Show & Tell being around means I don't get to Pay 1 life: Draw 1 card, so be it.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
Due to my weak karma, I can't give you what you do deserve so I will stick to the points. I am very sure that the only reason why those cards are not banned is because R&D want to control the % of combos in the meta and maybe some "fun" factors.

Earthcraft - people thought land tax was going to be big...what happened? 2 card 5 mana combos that don't win on the same turn isn't good in legacy. Does the card make elves or some other variant better? of course, but definitely not enough to wreck the format

Mind Twist - we have something that cost one more and it sees no play. How big is that one mana? Very big, but not enough to go from unplayable to banned worthy. Here's an excercise, take an unplayable card and shave off a color mana, tell me which one of card would be banned worth

bargain - probably the most borderline of the 3, but since griselbrand can win turn 2-3 pretty consistently, I don't see a bargain deck beating that speed. But do I think bargain is better than griselbrand? Of course I do, but do I think it's gonna bring back combo winter? Not at all

But if you insist that any of the above is completely wrong, please give me a rough list of what you think would break the format? Nothing extravagent but a little better than

And please read the cards as well, none of this either

[QUOTE]Then Earthcraft....as yes, Earthcraft. You're another idiot who thinks this card should be unbanned. Right.....let's not only unban Bargin, but let's also unban Earthcraft in a format that has Cradle, Sanctum, Replenish, and Opalescence......

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Due to your weak Karma, which is nobodys fault but your own for being a obnoxious troll, you still couldn't give m ewhat you think I derserve. Why? Bc you claim you know all about MTG, yet in all of your posts you constantly go against everything you say.

YES....I KNOW WHAT EARTCHCRAFT DOES. Maybe read everything I posted...like how we already lived through this ONCE BEFORE in my lifetime. I know Earthcraft is basic lands, the whole point was we've all been down this road before when Tempest Block-Saga Block Enchantments ruled the world of Magic. Why on earth would you ever want that again?

Mind Twist is completly unfair, yes, 1 colored mana is a HUGE difference. It means it would also just be an easy splash. Not only that it's miles better because fo the same mana you get 1 extra card compared to Mind Shatter like you've brought up.

You want examples? Ok. Regrowth, just make it a single Green. Not really played as is...but would probably see a ban if it was single green.

Or probaby the best, and easiest example, Counterspell. Hardly played at all in legacy, sometimes as a 1-of but is trumped by a bunch of countermagic that has been printed over the years making it almost unplayable in the format. If not totally unplayable it's borderline unplayable. Make that card a single blue and see what happens.

Examples have been set by myself, and others, of things that would degenerate with the cards you proposed getting unbanned. There is a good reason why these are banned, they are OP.

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Originally posted by daner:

Due to your weak Karma, which is nobodys fault but your own for being a obnoxious troll, you still couldn't give m ewhat you think I derserve. Why? Bc you claim you know all about MTG, yet in all of your posts you constantly go against everything you say.

YES....I KNOW WHAT EARTCHCRAFT DOES. Maybe read everything I posted...like how we already lived through this ONCE BEFORE in my lifetime. I know Earthcraft is basic lands, the whole point was we've all been down this road before when Tempest Block-Saga Block Enchantments ruled the world of Magic. Why on earth would you ever want that again?

Mind Twist is completly unfair, yes, 1 colored mana is a HUGE difference. It means it would also just be an easy splash. Not only that it's miles better because fo the same mana you get 1 extra card compared to Mind Shatter like you've brought up.

You want examples? Ok. Regrowth, just make it a single Green. Not really played as is...but would probably see a ban if it was single green.

Or probaby the best, and easiest example, Counterspell. Hardly played at all in legacy, sometimes as a 1-of but is trumped by a bunch of countermagic that has been printed over the years making it almost unplayable in the format. If not totally unplayable it's borderline unplayable. Make that card a single blue and see what happens.

Examples have been set by myself, and others, of things that would degenerate with the cards you proposed getting unbanned. There is a good reason why these are banned, they are OP.

Frankly, they shouldn't ban or unban a damn thing in legacy. This has been the most diverse and adapting format in the history of MTG. As mentioned by stu55, it's better to just let the ever changing meta deal with new decks. Legacy meta almost polices itself. Screaming for emergency bans or unbans is absurd, and is why you'll never be anything more than a message fourm troll....no matter how much you think you "know".

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Too many things wrong with this post so I will just point out a few and let the community laugh about the rest.

1. When I say unplayables, I don't mean commons that have seen printing in like 10 sets and still command $0.5 or uncommons that are a dollar each. I am talking bulk rare on the same level as mind shatter...like nettlevine blight or something

2. Tell me, right now, how many cards pre-masq are being played or are staples of the format? Why? Because of power creep and the same cards that deserved banning back then may be safe now.

3. You still haven't given me a plausible list of what could be broken with the cards I listed, you are just saying non-sense

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Originally posted by choco man:
Yawgmoth's Bargain would kinda be like an Ad Naus that you can play 4-of Enlighten Tutor to get.

It's +1 cc, but they can't Spell Pierce it. And you don't have to risk your tournament life to draw the right answers/pieces.

They did ban Mystical Tutor after they unbanned Entomb, since you could Mystical for Entomb/Show&Tell (making Reanimator too consistent). Or you could have built your deck with LED's instead of Reanimates and Mystical for Ad Naus. That beat people on the same turn instead of waiting a whole turn like Reanimator did.

And you can Show&Tell it which Ad Naus isn't eligible for. Academy Rector it. Could even side it esper mirror? Since Counterbalance only hits it on Terminus?

If you're all for keeping Show&Tell around (ie keeping ban list small and be able to play your cards) it seems reasonable to be against a unbanning on Bargain. Bargain is a pretty ridiculous permanent to have in play. It's much better than Land Tax, so it's lubricious to say "ohhh....but Land Tax didn't do nothin'" Land Tax and Bargain are not in the same league.

If Show & Tell being around means I don't get to Pay 1 life: Draw 1 card, so be it.

F[orget] karma, just say what you want to say.

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I didn't compare land tax to bargain, I compared land tax to earthcraft

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Originally posted by choco man:
Yawgmoth's Bargain would kinda be like an Ad Naus that you can play 4-of Enlighten Tutor to get.

It's +1 cc, but they can't Spell Pierce it.

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Pretty sure you can Spell Pierce Yawgmoth's Bargain.

__________________
****Attention****

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Originally posted by junichi:
Pretty sure you can Spell Pierce Yawgmoth's Bargain.

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Sorry about that. I was thinking Dispel, which is more narrow and not played as much.....my bad.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
I didn't compare land tax to bargain, I compared land tax to earthcraft

And you do what with the bargain in your hand after you tutor it?

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Well unlike Land Tax, Earthcraft can end the game the turn it hits. It's definitely "safer" than Bargain. Just because one card is safe, doesn't mean all of the cards are safe.

What to do with Bargain with it in hand? Uh...put it into play. If you can hardcast Ad Naus, you can hard cast Bargain.

quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
Too many things wrong with this post so I will just point out a few and let the community laugh about the rest.

1. When I say unplayables, I don't mean commons that have seen printing in like 10 sets and still command $0.5 or uncommons that are a dollar each. I am talking bulk rare on the same level as mind shatter...like nettlevine blight or something

2. Tell me, right now, how many cards pre-masq are being played or are staples of the format? Why? Because of power creep and the same cards that deserved banning back then may be safe now.

3. You still haven't given me a plausible list of what could be broken with the cards I listed, you are just saying non-sense

I didn't compare land tax to bargain, I compared land tax to earthcraft

And you do what with the bargain in your hand after you tutor it?

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1.Oh...so now that I gave you an example you have to change it? Way to think over what you said, which is the main problem I told you that you have.

2....and you claim I spew non-sense. Would you really like a list of all the pre-masque block cards being played or are considered staples in Legacy? I can't believe you would seriously say something this stupid, and I refuse to believe you're dumb enough to imply that there isn't a big list of pre-masques staples in Legacy....bc I'll give you a hint, there is. EDITS: And there would be a bigger list if they didn't ban quite a few pre-masques cards bc, as I stated, are OP. Not cards that were banned at the beginning, like Power, etc, but cards that were so powerful in Legacy decks they eventually had to be axed. If anythnig is banned in the future....it's probably going to be yet another pre-masques block card. But I guess "powercreep" is the real reason why pre-masques block cards aren't seen in Legacy that much, right?

3.Earthcraft(on a basic) + Squirrel Nest + Cradle + whatever degenerate card you'd like to play following this.

Turn 1 Sea, Ritual, Ritual, Mindtwist....discard 5 at random. Go. Oh that's right...gg.

Bargin. Play. Draw. Win. Or cheat into play with Rector/Replenish.

I mean....it's pretty simple. I know you have a hard time grasping concepts of Magic deck design...but with a little bit of help, you can upgrade to awful.

Here is more help, in case you missed it the first time....

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Originally posted by choco man:
Well unlike Land Tax, Earthcraft can end the game the turn it hits. It's definitely "safer" than Bargain. Just because one card is safe, doesn't mean all of the cards are safe.

What to do with Bargain with it in hand? Uh...put it into play. If you can hardcast Ad Naus, you can hard cast Bargain.

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