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Originally posted by marlo213:
Too many things wrong with this post so I will just point out a few and let the community laugh about the rest.

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No one is laughing at daner; his post is flawless. They're laughing at you.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
2. Tell me, right now, how many cards pre-masq are being played or are staples of the format? Why? Because of power creep and the same cards that deserved banning back then may be safe now.

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Obviously you don't actually play Legacy, or you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment. About 1/3 of the cards in Legacy are pre-Masques (just counted and my Rock deck is 22/61 pre-Masques), and considering Alpha - Urza's Destiny represents about 1/3 of Magic's existence, seems pretty reasonable. Also, let's consider that the majority of cards banned in Legacy are in fact pre-Masques, so if we unbanned all those, the format would go back to playing lots of degenerate things. Sure, there's been a power creep, particularly in creatures, but they also do a better job of not printing broken things like Bargain.

You're probably too young to remember, so I'll clue you in. Bargain was supposed to be a "fixed" version of Necro. That didn't happen. There were too many ways to cheat it into play (e.g., Rector) or power it out through Dark Rits, and with counter-magic backup, no one could deal with it in time.

With regards to Earthcraft, there's a lot more to it than Squirrel Nest. I was an advocate for unbanning Land Tax, as I felt it was a fair card. But Earthcraft would be a disaster. Between this and Bargain, you really like losing on turns 1 and 2, don't you? You probably think Hermit Druid would be fair, too?

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Originally posted by daner:
1.Oh...so now that I gave you an example you have to change it? Way to think over what you said, which is the main problem I told you that you have.

2....and you claim I spew non-sense. Would you really like a list of all the pre-masque block cards being played or are considered staples in Legacy? I can't believe you would seriously say something this stupid, and I refuse to believe you're dumb enough to imply that there isn't a big list of pre-masques staples in Legacy....bc I'll give you a hint, there is. EDITS: And there would be a bigger list if they didn't ban quite a few pre-masques cards bc, as I stated, are OP. Not cards that were banned at the beginning, like Power, etc, but cards that were so powerful in Legacy decks they eventually had to be axed. If anythnig is banned in the future....it's probably going to be yet another pre-masques block card. But I guess "powercreep" is the real reason why pre-masques block cards aren't seen in Legacy that much, right?

3.Earthcraft(on a basic) + Squirrel Nest + Cradle + whatever degenerate card you'd like to play following this.

Turn 1 Sea, Ritual, Ritual, Mindtwist....discard 5 at random. Go. Oh that's right...gg.

Bargin. Play. Draw. Win. Or cheat into play with Rector/Replenish.

I mean....it's pretty simple. I know you have a hard time grasping concepts of Magic deck design...but with a little bit of help, you can upgrade to awful.

Here is more help, in case you missed it the first time....

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If you had more reading comprehension skills, this conversation wouldn't be so difficult. Why should I have to point out everything obvious for us to discuss this? Why would I need for you to tell me that making counterspell cost less would make a good card? Or make regrowth cost less = over power? Please try to be on the same page with me when we discuss.

Also, when I say pre-masq, I obviously also meant spell (non-dual), if that wasn't clear. I clearly understand that Force of will and wasteland hold the format together, I by no way implied that pre-masq cards are inferior to post masq once.

Legacy has changed a lot since those cards were banned and some could be okay again. We have a different enviornment than when whoever drops their academy first wins (please don't turn this in a "you want to unban academy? are you stupid?").

And if you think that your 3 card combos that don't end the game is superior than what's currently out, you need to find superior players to play with (nicest possible way I can put this).

I know how good the cards I am talking about unbanning are. I have seen them in action, I played with an against them, but I have also seen storm decks that make little kids cry, so yes, I do believe legacy can hand one or more of these being unbanned

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
No one is laughing at daner; his post is flawless. They're laughing at you.

Obviously you don't actually play Legacy, or you wouldn't have made such a stupid comment. About 1/3 of the cards in Legacy are pre-Masques (just counted and my Rock deck is 22/61 pre-Masques), and considering Alpha - Urza's Destiny represents about 1/3 of Magic's existence, seems pretty reasonable. Also, let's consider that the majority of cards banned in Legacy are in fact pre-Masques, so if we unbanned all those, the format would go back to playing lots of degenerate things. Sure, there's been a power creep, particularly in creatures, but they also do a better job of not printing broken things like Bargain.

You're probably too young to remember, so I'll clue you in. Bargain was supposed to be a "fixed" version of Necro. That didn't happen. There were too many ways to cheat it into play (e.g., Rector) or power it out through Dark Rits, and with counter-magic backup, no one could deal with it in time.

With regards to Earthcraft, there's a lot more to it than Squirrel Nest. I was an advocate for unbanning Land Tax, as I felt it was a fair card. But Earthcraft would be a disaster. Between this and Bargain, you really like losing on turns 1 and 2, don't you? You probably think Hermit Druid would be fair, too?

I would like to see Show and Tell banned only from a consistency standpoint. Survival was deemed broken with Vengevine, yet with Shaman being so prevalent now, I think it would be very managable. Either way, it's a lot easier to deal with than Show and Tell.

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Originally posted by daner:
Earthcraft(on a basic) + Squirrel Nest + Cradle + whatever degenerate card you'd like to play following this...

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Hey, yeah, I forgot about the Earthcraft / Squirrel Nest combo.
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And neither of those cards are banned in EDH...
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I guess that means Marlo will need to transition to EDH to play with his Earthcrafts. Good thing for me Florida is a long way from Ceska republika.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
If you had more reading comprehension skills, this conversation wouldn't be so difficult. Why should I have to point out everything obvious for us to discuss this? Why would I need for you to tell me that making counterspell cost less would make a good card? Or make regrowth cost less = over power? Please try to be on the same page with me when we discuss.

Also, when I say pre-masq, I obviously also meant spell (non-dual), if that wasn't clear. I clearly understand that Force of will and wasteland hold the format together, I by no way implied that pre-masq cards are inferior to post masq once.

Legacy has changed a lot since those cards were banned and some could be okay again. We have a different enviornment than when whoever drops their academy first wins (please don't turn this in a "you want to unban academy? are you stupid?").

And if you think that your 3 card combos that don't end the game is superior than what's currently out, you need to find superior players to play with (nicest possible way I can put this).

I know how good the cards I am talking about unbanning are. I have seen them in action, I played with an against them, but I have also seen storm decks that make little kids cry, so yes, I do believe legacy can hand one or more of these being unbanned

Stop yes manning and please for the love of God, stop talking like I think any of the cards I mentioned are bad. They are not bad, they are good cards and will be played, but will not break the format!

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Oh I get it now...whenever you're wrong and get called out by mutiple people you change the rules. I get it...duals, FOW, Wasteland, City of Traitors, Maze, Tabernacle, etc etc lands don't count now.

Ok...Brainstorm, Humility, Moat, LED, Dark Ritual, Mom, PoP, Bolt, STP....you want me to go on? Even with you changing the rules plenty of examples remain...but I'm sure they don't count either.

It's obvious you DIDN'T play during the Bargin era, bc if you did you'd know that card hits the table you lose...and it wouldn't be hard to do on turn 1-2 consistantly.

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Originally posted by daner:
It's obvious you DIDN'T play during the Bargin era, bc if you did you'd know that card hits the table you lose...and it wouldn't be hard to do on turn 1-2 consistantly.

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Originally posted by Leeroy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by daner:
It's obvious you DIDN'T play during the Bargin era, bc if you did you'd know that card hits the table you lose...and it wouldn't be hard to do on turn 1-2 consistantly.

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In Standard, Sabre Bargain was far from dominating; in Extended, it was banned almost immediately; and restriction/ban in Type 1/1.5 soon followed.[/QUOTE]

You don't remember Replenish.deck? Yea...the era was short lived but only bc it had to be emergency banned. Almost as fast as Academy, not as fast as Memory Jar. Card ends games when it's played.

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Originally posted by daner:
You don't remember Replenish.deck? Yea...the era was short lived but only bc it had to be emergency banned. Almost as fast as Academy, not as fast as Memory Jar. Card ends games when it's played.

If you don't remember the deck...it revolved around cards like Attunement, Opalescense, Replenish, Bargin, Pandemonium, and Rector.

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wasnt Memory Jar banned b4 it was tourney legal?

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Originally posted by revenger:
wasnt Memory Jar banned b4 it was tourney legal?

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I still want Show and Tell banned for killing aggro as an archetype in legacy.

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Originally posted by psrex:
Yes, Memory Jar was banned before it was legal for anything.

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This is untrue....to a degree.

Memory Jar was allowed at 1 PTQ. 1. Of the 9 people playing it, it made the top 8 with 8 appearances. It was emergency banned on the spot when Wizards got ahold of the news....

You can thank Randy Buehler, Mike Turian, and Nick Eisel.

While it was technically banned before any big tournaments, it did make one appearence.

This was also back when...if you opened a pack of Urza's Legacy, and you happen to open a Memory Jar, you could send the pack to Wizards for a replacement pack.

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Originally posted by daner:
You don't remember Replenish.deck? Yea...the era was short lived but only bc it had to be emergency banned. Almost as fast as Academy, not as fast as Memory Jar. Card ends games when it's played.

If you don't remember the deck...it revolved around cards like Attunement, Opalescense, Replenish, Bargin, Pandemonium, and Rector.

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I agree that Bargain is a bit too strong to be safe in Legacy, but I don't think it actually had enough time to do real harm in relevant formats.

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Originally posted by revenger:
wasnt Memory Jar banned b4 it was tourney legal?

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Originally posted by daner:
Oh I get it now...whenever you're wrong and get called out by mutiple people you change the rules. I get it...duals, FOW, Wasteland, City of Traitors, Maze, Tabernacle, etc etc lands don't count now.

Ok...Brainstorm, Humility, Moat, LED, Dark Ritual, Mom, PoP, Bolt, STP....you want me to go on? Even with you changing the rules plenty of examples remain...but I'm sure they don't count either.

It's obvious you DIDN'T play during the Bargin era, bc if you did you'd know that card hits the table you lose...and it wouldn't be hard to do on turn 1-2 consistantly.

Add liar to list of things wrong with you.

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I can see that it is not possible for us to continue this without you taking some basic classes first, and since I currently have bad karma (and I need to save them to troll other members), I will refrain from trolling you for the sake of trolling you. So I will make a few last points and let you think about it

1. The reason why I brought up the amount of pre-masq cards played in legacy is to show you that with each new set printed, more and more cards are added to the pool, and that power creep is a thing. So when the card pool was only beta to masq, a lot more cards may be more unfair than if you had access to cards from beta to now

2. I didn't change the rule, you just to infer what I was saying, and there were no "multipl people" , you are the only person that couldn't infer from text (lowering a U from counterspell? really?)

3. It is also fairly clear that you are just trying to prove me wrong rather than to see a point of view other than your own.

A helpful hint, when you post stuff, make sure to remember the point of your post, whether it's to prove a point or just trolling, otherwise you just seem to have ADD.

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Originally posted by revenger:
wasnt Memory Jar banned b4 it was tourney legal?

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Memory Jar saw play during GP Vienna. I actually played the tournament. The format was extended and UL started being tournament usable.

Also, Yawgmoth's Bargain was very popular in US block constructed if I recall correctly and a Slovenian player actually won GP Milano with a mono-black combo deck with Skirges, Bargain, Dark Rituals and other stuff.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
I can see that it is not possible for us to continue this without you taking some basic classes first, and since I currently have bad karma (and I need to save them to troll other members), I will refrain from trolling you for the sake of trolling you. So I will make a few last points and let you think about it

1. The reason why I brought up the amount of pre-masq cards played in legacy is to show you that with each new set printed, more and more cards are added to the pool, and that power creep is a thing. So when the card pool was only beta to masq, a lot more cards may be more unfair than if you had access to cards from beta to now

2. I didn't change the rule, you just to infer what I was saying, and there were no "multipl people" , you are the only person that couldn't infer from text (lowering a U from counterspell? really?)

3. It is also fairly clear that you are just trying to prove me wrong rather than to see a point of view other than your own.

A helpful hint, when you post stuff, make sure to remember the point of your post, whether it's to prove a point or just trolling, otherwise you just seem to have ADD.

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I need basic classes on what? You're suggestions on what they should unban was redic, bc most of those cards end the game the turn they are played....the whole point of this topic was banning cards that do that...not promoting more like you want to.

The reason why you brought up pre-masques was to try and prove an invalid point. Yes, there is such a thing called power creep, but some cards are still too powerful. The power creep era has been mostly creatures if you haven't noticed. Magic has gone from a spell-permission oriented game to who can play the biggest most efficient creature game. Everybody knows this though...bc Wizards specifically said they were going to do this and how they hate printing countermagic. This isn't something that you know and others don't....but thanks for pointing out what everybody knows I guess.

Yes, you did change the rule. Take a card that isn't playable...so I did. I took Regrowth and Counterspell. Those cards aren't playable in Legacy, maybe you see 1xCounterspell...maybe. That's not very palyable, so I took them and chopped off a color and uncolored mana from them...they'd be banned if that happened. Since I disproved your theory, you made a rule change.

Then you make another comment as how there isn't many pre-masques cards....and I start naming them, Coasterdude names some too...Then you say lands don't count. Ok, so I give you yet another group of cards to which make you look like a fool. You are once again proven wrong.

So what do you do now? Try to insult me, and claim you still are more knowledgeable of the game of Magic which you clearly are not. Not just to me either, but you seem to have little to nothing in comprehension of MTG.

This isn't only my idea that cards like Bargin, Earthcraft and others you mentioned should be banned...they are the general consensus of the Magic community and have been represented by WOTC and the DCI. The DCI doesn't revolve around what I think, they banned these cards for good reason, and like I and others have tried to tell you...they are banned bc they end the game the turn they resolve. Going back to the original topic at hand...we are trying to prevent, not promote this idea.

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Originally posted by daner:
I need basic classes on what? You're suggestions on what they should unban was redic, bc most of those cards end the game the turn they are played....the whole point of this topic was banning cards that do that...not promoting more like you want to.

The reason why you brought up pre-masques was to try and prove an invalid point. Yes, there is such a thing called power creep, but some cards are still too powerful. The power creep era has been mostly creatures if you haven't noticed. Magic has gone from a spell-permission oriented game to who can play the biggest most efficient creature game. Everybody knows this though...bc Wizards specifically said they were going to do this and how they hate printing countermagic. This isn't something that you know and others don't....but thanks for pointing out what everybody knows I guess.

Yes, you did change the rule. Take a card that isn't playable...so I did. I took Regrowth and Counterspell. Those cards aren't playable in Legacy, maybe you see 1xCounterspell...maybe. That's not very palyable, so I took them and chopped off a color and uncolored mana from them...they'd be banned if that happened. Since I disproved your theory, you made a rule change.

Then you make another comment as how there isn't many pre-masques cards....and I start naming them, Coasterdude names some too...Then you say lands don't count. Ok, so I give you yet another group of cards to which make you look like a fool. You are once again proven wrong.

So what do you do now? Try to insult me, and claim you still are more knowledgeable of the game of Magic which you clearly are not. Not just to me either, but you seem to have little to nothing in comprehension of MTG.

This isn't only my idea that cards like Bargin, Earthcraft and others you mentioned should be banned...they are the general consensus of the Magic community and have been represented by WOTC and the DCI. The DCI doesn't revolve around what I think, they banned these cards for good reason, and like I and others have tried to tell you...they are banned bc they end the game the turn they resolve. Going back to the original topic at hand...we are trying to prevent, not promote this idea.

Good to know that your only goal on MOTL is to stay around long enough to troll people. Have a fun stay.

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Originally posted by marlo213:
This is off topic but it will make me grasp your credibility a lot better, what did you get on your SAT or ACT verbal section (GMAT or GRE would work too)? Every time I read one of your post I feel like you didn't understand a word I said. It could be that I am the idiot here, but please answer my question and if I am the moron here, I will stop and go better myself

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quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
This is off topic but it will make me grasp your credibility a lot better, what did you get on your SAT or ACT verbal section (GMAT or GRE would work too)? Every time I read one of your post I feel like you didn't understand a word I said. It could be that I am the idiot here, but please answer my question and if I am the moron here, I will stop and go better myself

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quote:

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Originally posted by marlo213:
This is off topic but it will make me grasp your credibility a lot better, what did you get on your SAT or ACT verbal section (GMAT or GRE would work too)? Every time I read one of your post I feel like you didn't understand a word I said. It could be that I am the idiot here, but please answer my question and if I am the moron here, I will stop and go better myself

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I scored a 2240 on my SAT

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Originally posted by marlo213:
See, it's useless comments like mine that derail threads.

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__________________
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Originally posted by Link139232:
I scored a 2240 on my SAT

On topic: There's an article on SCG about Legacy and unbannings, its a decent read.

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