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Author Topic:   Will we ever see Bird's of Paradise again?
MeddlingMage
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posted May 12, 2013 05:42 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MeddlingMage Click Here to Email MeddlingMage Send a private message to MeddlingMage Click to send MeddlingMage an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MeddlingMage's Have/Want ListView MeddlingMage's Have/Want List
Will we ever see Bird's of Paradise again? I was hoping in Dragon Maze, with all 10 guilds being represented and 3 color decks (or more) abound.

What about the core set? M14 could bring them back where they rightfully belong. In a core set.

What do you think? Discuss.

~MM

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stinkinogre
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posted May 12, 2013 05:49 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for stinkinogre Click Here to Email stinkinogre Send a private message to stinkinogre Click to send stinkinogre an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View stinkinogre's Trade Auction or SaleView stinkinogre's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Will we ever see Bird's of Paradise again? I was hoping in Dragon Maze, with all 10 guilds being represented and 3 color decks (or more) abound.

What about the core set? M14 could bring them back where they rightfully belong. In a core set.

What do you think? Discuss.

~MM


For standard. God I wish. Would be nice. Last time we went awhile without we got them back in Ravnica Block. so maybe Theros. Would love it if wizards brought them back.

 
revenger
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posted May 12, 2013 07:18 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for revenger Click Here to Email revenger Send a private message to revenger Click to send revenger an Instant MessageVisit revenger's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View revenger's Have/Want ListView revenger's Have/Want List
Wotc said something bout being overcosted- so u get Llanowar Elves- or Arbor. So good riddance! Die Bop Die!

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Volcanon
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posted May 12, 2013 07:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by revenger:
Wotc said something bout being overcosted- so u get Llanowar Elves- or Arbor. So good riddance! Die Bop Die!


Undercosted, maybe?
Maybe they will be awesome and reprint Noble Hierarch, or something similar. A mana elf that makes red/white or something would be cool for G.

 
choco man
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posted May 12, 2013 07:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
Maybe they will be awesome and reprint Noble Hierarch,

I will drink to that.

 
chuck d
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posted May 12, 2013 07:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for chuck d Click Here to Email chuck d Send a private message to chuck d Click to send chuck d an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View chuck d's Trade Auction or SaleView chuck d's Trade Auction or Sale
Imo, it'll be arbor elf again. Pretty effective with the shock lands around. Not really basing that on anything, just makes sense to me
 
revenger
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posted May 12, 2013 07:42 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for revenger Click Here to Email revenger Send a private message to revenger Click to send revenger an Instant MessageVisit revenger's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View revenger's Have/Want ListView revenger's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
Undercosted, maybe?
Maybe they will be awesome and reprint Noble Hierarch, or something similar. A mana elf that makes red/white or something would be cool for G.

Undercosted is what I meant. He he.

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nderdog
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posted May 12, 2013 07:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
I would venture to guess that it'll come back some day. Just look at Lightning Bolt and how long they said it was overpowered, but it managed to come back for a couple years. BoP would be a solid choice for one of their Xth anniversary "bring back iconic old cards" trips down memory lane.

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Pail42
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posted May 12, 2013 08:11 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pail42 Send a private message to Pail42 Click to send Pail42 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm not a fan of BoP. I think it's a bit too powerful, and I think its bad for the color pie, but but my big problem with it today is that it is a lazy design. Take a creature that exists at common (llanowar elves) and start adding value to make it worthy of being rare.

Something like deathrite shaman is a much better design. It has more abilities than common mana dorks and those abilities are more powerful, but also somewhat situational.

 
Vegas10
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posted May 12, 2013 08:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegas10 Click Here to Email Vegas10 Send a private message to Vegas10 Click to send Vegas10 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Vegas10's Have/Want ListView Vegas10's Have/Want List
I say at some point when it fits there needs they will likley bring them back again, yes
 
hilikuS
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posted May 13, 2013 11:42 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
Did it even see that much play when it was in Standard? I'm sure somebody used it, but it's not like it was running rampant.

If it's undercosted, that means it's too powerful right? I just don't see it doing anything profound to the Standard format, or at least, it hasn't in the past few printings.

 
mm1983
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posted May 13, 2013 12:47 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
I think Noble Hierarch will be back for Modern Masters but being that slivers are coming back in M14 I could see possibly a reprint of Gemhide Sliver as an uncommon for limited play purposes because it was too good as a common.
 
mcelraca
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posted May 13, 2013 02:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mcelraca Click Here to Email mcelraca Send a private message to mcelraca Click to send mcelraca an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pail42:
I'm not a fan of BoP. I think it's a bit too powerful, and I think its bad for the color pie, but but my big problem with it today is that it is a lazy design. Take a creature that exists at common (llanowar elves) and start adding value to make it worthy of being rare.

Something like deathrite shaman is a much better design. It has more abilities than common mana dorks and those abilities are more powerful, but also somewhat situational.



I agree fully with this.

BOP is classic and an amazing card, but I'd personally rather see more cards like deathrite shaman over BOP.

 
Volcanon
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posted May 13, 2013 04:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mcelraca:

I agree fully with this.

BOP is classic and an amazing card, but I'd personally rather see more cards like deathrite shaman over BOP.


Make a 1/1 G creature that comes into play, choose a color, taps for that color. There, easy and not OP.

 
wild-ravager
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posted May 13, 2013 05:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for wild-ravager Click Here to Email wild-ravager Send a private message to wild-ravager Click to send wild-ravager an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View wild-ravager's Have/Want ListView wild-ravager's Have/Want List
How is bop to overpowered it really hasn't seen play in forever
 
dwiz
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posted May 13, 2013 06:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by wild-ravager:
How is bop to overpowered it really hasn't seen play in forever

Agreed. It's very good, but it's not taking a 1 drop slot from DS right now. If it makes 5 color a thing, then awesome.

 
paris
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posted May 13, 2013 06:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for paris Click Here to Email paris Send a private message to paris Click to send paris an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
BoP doesn't feel overpowered to me either.

Maybe it'd be overpowered if they also added a "when this is placed in your graveyard from play, draw 2 cards" to it.

 
dwiz
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posted May 13, 2013 06:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by paris:
BoP doesn't feel overpowered to me either.

Maybe it'd be overpowered if they also added a "when this is placed in your graveyard from play, draw 2 cards" to it.


Haha, that would just be tits

 
harbingerofthevoid
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posted May 13, 2013 06:42 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for harbingerofthevoid Click Here to Email harbingerofthevoid Send a private message to harbingerofthevoid Click to send harbingerofthevoid an Instant MessageVisit harbingerofthevoid's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View harbingerofthevoid's Have/Want ListView harbingerofthevoid's Have/Want List
How are you actually comparing BoP to DRS?

on every level they are completely different cards. Their common place, they can both be cast for G.

 
mcelraca
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posted May 13, 2013 09:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mcelraca Click Here to Email mcelraca Send a private message to mcelraca Click to send mcelraca an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by harbingerofthevoid:
How are you actually comparing BoP to DRS?

on every level they are completely different cards. Their common place, they can both be cast for G.


The comparison of BoP and DRS is very obvious. I mean you yourself said they both cast for G.

What exactly has to be similar for them to be compared?

1. The fact they both have the same cmc?
2. They both are of the same color?
3. They're both creatures.
4. They are able to tap for mana of any color?

Could I list a million differences? Yeah, sure I can, but that doesn't mean I can't compare the two either. They may not always, but are able to fulfill similar rolls.

I think most would agree DRS is a more interesting card overall. It lacks the simple elegance of BoP, but is a cooler card in my book.

Now for BoP being overpowered, I would say I'm torn.

On one hand BoP is classic card that has been around longer than I've been playing. It has stood the test of time, being played but not banned.

Then on the other hand, it's always bugged me green could mana fix so easily.

Now that I'm actually sitting here thinking about it. I think why I've always been inclined to say BoP is overpowered is because of my magic origins. <----that being 2-3 years in high school when my friends and I only played basic lands. When 99% of the lands you play are basic, BoP definitely feels over powered. Now that I'm a little better educated as a player I've learned how to build a proper mana base. Which really does adjust the power level of BoP to be on par with what it needs to be.



[Edited 1 times, lastly by mcelraca on May 13, 2013]

 
choco man
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posted May 13, 2013 11:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Pail42:
I'm not a fan of BoP. I think it's a bit too powerful, and I think its bad for the color pie, but but my big problem with it today is that it is a lazy design. Take a creature that exists at common (llanowar elves) and start adding value to make it worthy of being rare.

Something like deathrite shaman is a much better design. It has more abilities than common mana dorks and those abilities are more powerful, but also somewhat situational.


I'm not sure which was designed first; BOP or Llanowar since they were both in Alpha. It only goes to show how complex and brilliant of a game MTG truly is that the true worth/value/power of either one is wholly contextual. I don't think you can just say BOP is a powered-up Elf and call it a day.

BOP is the rare and supposedly just a powered-up Llanowar, but it's worthless in an Elves deck. I'm sure they weren't thinking about these things 20 yrs ago, but it sure did pan out. In hindsight, to call that design "lazy" is just disrespectful. Especially since we all have the luxury of being afforded such a beautiful perspective. TWENTY YEARS!

quote:
Originally posted by mcelraca:
Then on the other hand, it's always bugged me green could mana fix so easily.


In the context of competitive MTG, color-fixing isn't a green-only thing. Which on one hand is a good thing (both Ravnicas happen to coincide with great standard formats, mana = good for the game) and a bad thing (Green's color pie is mana, but every color has excellent mana). So for me it's the opposite; it kind of bugs me that you don't have to play green at all to have good mana.

The best mana fixers are lands (fetches, duals) and rightfully so since lands make mana. If everyone gets good lands, so be it. As long as green gets the land ramp

I look at BOP as an iconic Green card. And an iconic card for MTG as a whole. I hope it does get reprinted, just not now since it's not needed. Whenever we get a card like BOP, it feels good to be able to play it. Cube is a great place to be, but sometimes you long for more.

 
thror
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posted May 14, 2013 12:02 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
I'm not sure which was designed first; BOP or Llanowar since they were both in Alpha.

LLanowar elf was. The art for birds was originally submitted for Volcanic Island, but the bird was deemed 'too focal', so they made a card for it. And didn't get new Volcanic Island art in time, which is also why Alpha Volcanics don't exist.

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choco man
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posted May 14, 2013 12:06 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by thror:
LLanowar elf was. The art for birds was originally submitted for Volcanic Island, but the bird was deemed 'too focal', so they made a card for it. And didn't get new Volcanic Island art in time, which is also why Alpha Volcanics don't exist.


Nice follow-up

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Pail42
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posted May 14, 2013 08:18 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pail42 Send a private message to Pail42 Click to send Pail42 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
I'm not sure which was designed first; BOP or Llanowar since they were both in Alpha. It only goes to show how complex and brilliant of a game MTG truly is that the true worth/value/power of either one is wholly contextual. I don't think you can just say BOP is a powered-up Elf and call it a day.

BOP is the rare and supposedly just a powered-up Llanowar, but it's worthless in an Elves deck. I'm sure they weren't thinking about these things 20 yrs ago, but it sure did pan out. In hindsight, to call that design "lazy" is just disrespectful. Especially since we all have the luxury of being afforded such a beautiful perspective. TWENTY YEARS!


At the time Llanowar Elves was printed there were no elf tribal cards, and there probably wasn't a firm plan to print any. Our first elvish "lord" was Eldamari in Tempest (1997), four years and thirteen expansions after the release of Alpha.

That's the end of my response to you choco man, the following is just a rant on why strictly-better cards are bad.

In Alpha there are many examples of higher rarity resulting in a "strictly better" card.

Mons's Goblin Raiders < Goblin Balloon Brigade
Gray Ogre < Granite Gargoyle
Gray Ogre < Uthden Troll
Hill Giant < Roc of Kher Ridges
5 Basic Lands < 10 Dual Lands
*

One one hand that's fine. It can help pack sales and it can lead to player excitement when they see an obvious way to make their deck better by doing a strictly better upgrade. On the other hand that's bad. It leads to a lot of cards becoming worthless to people with deep enough pockets and others complain about the cost of playing and drop out of the game. The money complaint still exists today, but strictly better cards in the same set make the problem worse.

When was the last time strictly better cards were printed in the same set? If this was a "good" design choice I'd expect it to happen often; if it's a "bad" design choice I expect Wizards realizes this and tries to avoid it. Here's a recent article by Rosewater that touches on the subject of the design behind the RtR guildgates and trying to make them not strictly worse than the shock lands https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/213

* - last second change, I originally had Llanowar < BoP in this list but I removed it because BoP has 0 power. I had honestly forgotten that BoP does not meet the definition for strictly better.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Pail42 on May 14, 2013]

 
ravidell
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posted May 14, 2013 09:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for ravidell Click Here to Email ravidell Send a private message to ravidell Click to send ravidell an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I hate bop, its been printed about 20 times now, and because i never want to see one again, wotc will start printing it is ftv sets, and prolly start putting one in every fat pack
 

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