What about the core set? M14 could bring them back where they rightfully belong. In a core set.

What do you think? Discuss.

~MM

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Will we ever see Bird's of Paradise again? I was hoping in Dragon Maze, with all 10 guilds being represented and 3 color decks (or more) abound.

What about the core set? M14 could bring them back where they rightfully belong. In a core set.

What do you think? Discuss.

~MM

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Originally posted by revenger:
Wotc said something bout being overcosted- so u get Llanowar Elves- or Arbor. So good riddance! Die Bop Die!

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Maybe they will be awesome and reprint Noble Hierarch,

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Undercosted, maybe?
Maybe they will be awesome and reprint Noble Hierarch, or something similar. A mana elf that makes red/white or something would be cool for G.

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Undercosted is what I meant. He he.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
I'm not a fan of BoP. I think it's a bit too powerful, and I think its bad for the color pie, but but my big problem with it today is that it is a lazy design. Take a creature that exists at common (llanowar elves) and start adding value to make it worthy of being rare.

Something like deathrite shaman is a much better design. It has more abilities than common mana dorks and those abilities are more powerful, but also somewhat situational.

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I agree fully with this.

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Originally posted by mcelraca:

I agree fully with this.

BOP is classic and an amazing card, but I'd personally rather see more cards like deathrite shaman over BOP.

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Originally posted by wild-ravager:
How is bop to overpowered it really hasn't seen play in forever

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Originally posted by paris:
BoP doesn't feel overpowered to me either.

Maybe it'd be overpowered if they also added a "when this is placed in your graveyard from play, draw 2 cards" to it.

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Originally posted by harbingerofthevoid:
How are you actually comparing BoP to DRS?

on every level they are completely different cards. Their common place, they can both be cast for G.

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The comparison of BoP and DRS is very obvious. I mean you yourself said they both cast for G.

What exactly has to be similar for them to be compared?

1. The fact they both have the same cmc?
2. They both are of the same color?
3. They're both creatures.
4. They are able to tap for mana of any color?

Could I list a million differences? Yeah, sure I can, but that doesn't mean I can't compare the two either. They may not always, but are able to fulfill similar rolls.

I think most would agree DRS is a more interesting card overall. It lacks the simple elegance of BoP, but is a cooler card in my book.

Now for BoP being overpowered, I would say I'm torn.

On one hand BoP is classic card that has been around longer than I've been playing. It has stood the test of time, being played but not banned.

Then on the other hand, it's always bugged me green could mana fix so easily.

Now that I'm actually sitting here thinking about it. I think why I've always been inclined to say BoP is overpowered is because of my magic origins. <----that being 2-3 years in high school when my friends and I only played basic lands. When 99% of the lands you play are basic, BoP definitely feels over powered. Now that I'm a little better educated as a player I've learned how to build a proper mana base. Which really does adjust the power level of BoP to be on par with what it needs to be.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
I'm not a fan of BoP. I think it's a bit too powerful, and I think its bad for the color pie, but but my big problem with it today is that it is a lazy design. Take a creature that exists at common (llanowar elves) and start adding value to make it worthy of being rare.

Something like deathrite shaman is a much better design. It has more abilities than common mana dorks and those abilities are more powerful, but also somewhat situational.

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I'm not sure which was designed first; BOP or Llanowar since they were both in Alpha. It only goes to show how complex and brilliant of a game MTG truly is that the true worth/value/power of either one is wholly contextual. I don't think you can just say BOP is a powered-up Elf and call it a day.

BOP is the rare and supposedly just a powered-up Llanowar, but it's worthless in an Elves deck. I'm sure they weren't thinking about these things 20 yrs ago, but it sure did pan out. In hindsight, to call that design "lazy" is just disrespectful. Especially since we all have the luxury of being afforded such a beautiful perspective. TWENTY YEARS!

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Originally posted by mcelraca:
Then on the other hand, it's always bugged me green could mana fix so easily.

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In the context of competitive MTG, color-fixing isn't a green-only thing. Which on one hand is a good thing (both Ravnicas happen to coincide with great standard formats, mana = good for the game) and a bad thing (Green's color pie is mana, but every color has excellent mana). So for me it's the opposite; it kind of bugs me that you don't have to play green at all to have good mana.

The best mana fixers are lands (fetches, duals) and rightfully so since lands make mana. If everyone gets good lands, so be it. As long as green gets the land ramp

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Originally posted by choco man:
I'm not sure which was designed first; BOP or Llanowar since they were both in Alpha.

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LLanowar elf was. The art for birds was originally submitted for Volcanic Island, but the bird was deemed 'too focal', so they made a card for it. And didn't get new Volcanic Island art in time, which is also why Alpha Volcanics don't exist.

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Originally posted by thror:
LLanowar elf was. The art for birds was originally submitted for Volcanic Island, but the bird was deemed 'too focal', so they made a card for it. And didn't get new Volcanic Island art in time, which is also why Alpha Volcanics don't exist.

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Nice follow-up

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Originally posted by choco man:
I'm not sure which was designed first; BOP or Llanowar since they were both in Alpha. It only goes to show how complex and brilliant of a game MTG truly is that the true worth/value/power of either one is wholly contextual. I don't think you can just say BOP is a powered-up Elf and call it a day.

BOP is the rare and supposedly just a powered-up Llanowar, but it's worthless in an Elves deck. I'm sure they weren't thinking about these things 20 yrs ago, but it sure did pan out. In hindsight, to call that design "lazy" is just disrespectful. Especially since we all have the luxury of being afforded such a beautiful perspective. TWENTY YEARS!

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At the time Llanowar Elves was printed there were no elf tribal cards, and there probably wasn't a firm plan to print any. Our first elvish "lord" was Eldamari in Tempest (1997), four years and thirteen expansions after the release of Alpha.

That's the end of my response to you choco man, the following is just a rant on why strictly-better cards are bad.

In Alpha there are many examples of higher rarity resulting in a "strictly better" card.

Mons's Goblin Raiders < Goblin Balloon Brigade
Gray Ogre < Granite Gargoyle
Gray Ogre < Uthden Troll
Hill Giant < Roc of Kher Ridges
5 Basic Lands < 10 Dual Lands
*

One one hand that's fine. It can help pack sales and it can lead to player excitement when they see an obvious way to make their deck better by doing a strictly better upgrade. On the other hand that's bad. It leads to a lot of cards becoming worthless to people with deep enough pockets and others complain about the cost of playing and drop out of the game. The money complaint still exists today, but strictly better cards in the same set make the problem worse.

When was the last time strictly better cards were printed in the same set? If this was a "good" design choice I'd expect it to happen often; if it's a "bad" design choice I expect Wizards realizes this and tries to avoid it. Here's a recent article by Rosewater that touches on the subject of the design behind the RtR guildgates and trying to make them not strictly worse than the shock lands https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/213