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Author Topic:   Ethics of conceding in a multiplayer game in spite of your killer.
Gary Mansur
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posted June 10, 2013 02:31 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Mansur Click Here to Email Gary Mansur Send a private message to Gary Mansur Click to send Gary Mansur an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Gary Mansur's Have/Want ListView Gary Mansur's Have/Want List
This is the scenario: I managed to get out an early It That Betrays and started swinging at the player who I'd benefit most from getting sacrificed permanents. After the second attack, he simply concedes in order to deprive me of the extra card power in my fight against the others.

Is it just me, or is this petty and unsportsmanlike? Granted, it's not terribly fun to be set back like that, but is it more fun to sit and watch everyone else play? This also tends to happen when the person's killer would gain life (or anything else) in the process of killing someone.

Compounding matters is how our playgroup feels that the first person to lose should go first in the next game. While I have no qualms with the spirit of this rule, they apparently find it valid to play first even if their loss was a concession.

Thoughts?

 
AGO
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posted June 10, 2013 04:46 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AGO Click Here to Email AGO Send a private message to AGO Click to send AGO an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AGO's Trade Auction or SaleView AGO's Trade Auction or Sale
EDH is about having fun. Steamrolling a single player and being mad they conceded is petty. Politics is a real thing in EDH. I would not sit there and watch others play magic after taking a hit to the face from annihilator more then once.
 
Sovarius
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posted June 10, 2013 05:01 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
You're annoying for Betraying him multiple times, i would quit simply because it would be impossible to recover from, not to spite you. If he did it to spite you he's petty, but if i were in your place i probably would not admit to being butthurt about it. You can both be petty. But then again you all have different ideas on what's casual and how to politic.


Personally, here's what's petty: A player is wide open with a couple life points left. Another player tries to swing in for a freebie Sword of Feast and Famine. The guy is going to lose anyway, but after being attacked he quits, so the sword never hits.

That is bs. Just lose like a half decent person and don't be such a baby. Your fault for being open (probably), and quitting just because you're going to lose and affecting the state of the game from what is essentially non-game rules is NOT politics.
In that case i used i told the quitting player fk u and the Feast of Famine guy to go ahead an untap and no one else objected. Besides the quitting player, who was dead serious about shafting someone by quitting.

This is also like when someone knows they are going to quit and they do an all out attack on someone they don't like without regard to consequence. See what happens, who dies, what damage is dealt. Then second main phase goes 'fk u i wanted to get one last attack in before i quit'.
Seriously. That is not ok and i will call you out. Politics are the best part of EDH, but that is NOT politics.


The rule i am trying to enforce is that if you are seriously going to quit, you wait until your turn and quit before you untap anything. Only fair, i think. Unless you are seriously being held down and raped and/or the other players are actually douches.

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Gary Mansur
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posted June 10, 2013 06:07 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Mansur Click Here to Email Gary Mansur Send a private message to Gary Mansur Click to send Gary Mansur an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Gary Mansur's Have/Want ListView Gary Mansur's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by AGO:
EDH is about having fun. Steamrolling a single player and being mad they conceded is petty. Politics is a real thing in EDH. I would not sit there and watch others play magic after taking a hit to the face from annihilator more then once.


Getting annihilated twice is a setback, whereas conceding literally results in you "sitting there and watching others play magic," so I fail to see what you would be trying to accomplish by quitting, other than spiting your attacker. Is this the type of behavior that you feel should be encouraged in a game? Lashing out when something happens to you that you don't like? Why do you feel that is the appropriate response instead of rolling with the punches? It's Magic; sometimes you're going to get kicked in the balls.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Gary Mansur on June 10, 2013]
 
Zeckk
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posted June 10, 2013 06:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
I read words like "lashing out" and "spiting a player" when 9 times out of ten it just means you failed to take into account all options in a multiplayer game. Seriously grow up. It's a multiplayer casual game and you are griping about not getting full value when knocking a guy out of the game. Such an idiotic way to look at the format...
 
jbark
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posted June 10, 2013 06:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for jbark Click Here to Email jbark Send a private message to jbark Click to send jbark an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View jbark's Have/Want ListView jbark's Have/Want List
I know in constructed tournaments I enjoy when people scoop early. Then I can take the long and awaited duece I've had holding for 2+ hours or go grab a bite. This happens all the time with combo decks or when a dude get land screwed.
 
Bagbokk
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posted June 10, 2013 06:35 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Bagbokk's Trade Auction or SaleView Bagbokk's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
It's Magic; sometimes you're going to get kicked in the balls.

And sometimes people just concede because when they get kicked in the balls they're not coming back from it. Conceding is part of the game every bit as much as being kicked in the balls (for whatever reason) is. When something like that happens, all you're doing is telling them you can kill them at any time and the only reason they're alive is because you're letting them live. That's honestly not fun. And sometimes, NOT playing is actually MORE fun than playing a game that isn't fun.

I don't concede to screw other people over (so in Sovarius's examples, well, I wouldn't leave myself wide open to begin with, but if I did and got attacked for the loss, I'd just allow myself to die) but I also won't continue playing a game that I'm not going to get any enjoyment out of. Target me with a Strip Mine + Crucible Worlds 2-3 turns in a row early in the game? I'm probably out.

I don't know if the people you play with just have bad attitudes, but I'm never "lashing out" when I quit. I'm just like "well, don't think I'm coming back from this, so I'm gonna scoop -- good game guys."

quote:
I know in constructed tournaments I enjoy when people scoop early. Then I can take the long and awaited duece I've had holding for 2+ hours or go grab a bite. This happens all the time with combo decks or when a dude get land screwed.

And yeah, I scoop early at FNM too when I'm in a situation where it's either literally impossible to come back from or has such a small chance that I'd prefer to have the extra 45 minutes. If I really wanted to keep playing for fun I'd just ask the guy if he'd like to play a couple games after the match is over.

[Edited 3 times, lastly by Bagbokk on June 10, 2013]

 
mcelraca
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posted June 10, 2013 07:05 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mcelraca Click Here to Email mcelraca Send a private message to mcelraca Click to send mcelraca an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I very much enjoy edh and it's been my format of choice for quite some time now. And so I have plenty of opinions to go along with that ;-)

Now onto your question.
I'm thinking the player that quit, was more because of a hopeless board state than anything. That player was being a bit of a dud, but think about it like this.

You must have had a pretty sweet set up. Even if It That Betrays was the only card you had active, it's nothing to scoff at. You were threatening enough to cause someone to concede. Any player worth their salt can judge good/bad board state(it's common sense). Now, seeing that this player is A. a benefit to you and B. in some serious hurt. At this point if you wanted to continue to keep him around as an asset, you should have backed off (If he dies he takes all of his cards with him either way and if he is helping you, why attack?) I'm not saying you have to go easy on him, but does it benefit you for him to be in game/is he a threat to you?

In no way am I saying you're a bad player. The point I'm trying to make is that multi player (edh in this case) is political. You have to play the game knowing that. If you aren't you're only playing part of it. Don't complain when you decimate someone and they want to quit.

 
Gary Mansur
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posted June 10, 2013 07:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Mansur Click Here to Email Gary Mansur Send a private message to Gary Mansur Click to send Gary Mansur an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Gary Mansur's Have/Want ListView Gary Mansur's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Zeckk:
I read words like "lashing out" and "spiting a player" when 9 times out of ten it just means you failed to take into account all options in a multiplayer game. Seriously grow up. It's a multiplayer casual game and you are griping about not getting full value when knocking a guy out of the game. Such an idiotic way to look at the format...


I read random insults and emotionally charged drivel and see a child who is unable to control how he feels. I'm not sure I'm the one who needs to grow up here.

mcel, he conceded when I declared my second attack. My other option was to attack a player who had an Ankh of Mishra and Tainted AEther on the field.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Gary Mansur on June 10, 2013]

 
Devonin
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posted June 10, 2013 07:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
This is not a question of ethics.
 
coasterdude84
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posted June 10, 2013 08:32 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
This is why I don't play EDH.
 
Demilio
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posted June 10, 2013 08:38 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Demilio Click Here to Email Demilio Send a private message to Demilio Click to send Demilio an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Demilio's Have/Want ListView Demilio's Have/Want List
After playing EDH at my LGS for some time now, I have learned who the people are that run eldrazi, mono blue counterspells, land destruction, combo decks and will generally avoid playing with them again.

As someone said above, this is not a question of ethics, I would call it sportsmanship. There will always be poor sports in the game. It may be harder to avoid those people at competitive events, but for a casual fun format like EDH, you can just say no thanks.




[Edited 1 times, lastly by Demilio on June 10, 2013]

 
harbingerofthevoid
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posted June 10, 2013 09:05 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for harbingerofthevoid Click Here to Email harbingerofthevoid Send a private message to harbingerofthevoid Click to send harbingerofthevoid an Instant MessageVisit harbingerofthevoid's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View harbingerofthevoid's Have/Want ListView harbingerofthevoid's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Mansur:
It's Magic; sometimes you're going to get kicked in the balls.

It's Magic, at any time (104.3a) a player can concede the game.

You didn't like him leaving. He didn't like you pounding on him. Finish the game and play again.

 
AGO
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posted June 10, 2013 09:19 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AGO Click Here to Email AGO Send a private message to AGO Click to send AGO an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AGO's Trade Auction or SaleView AGO's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Mansur:

Getting annihilated twice is a setback, whereas conceding literally results in you "sitting there and watching others play magic," so I fail to see what you would be trying to accomplish by quitting, other than spiting your attacker. Is this the type of behavior that you feel should be encouraged in a game? Lashing out when something happens to you that you don't like? Why do you feel that is the appropriate response instead of rolling with the punches? It's Magic; sometimes you're going to get kicked in the balls.

I don't think you understand. I wouldn't concede and sit and watch you play magic. I would concede and then find other players to play.

 
KGtheLegend
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posted June 10, 2013 09:52 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for KGtheLegend Click Here to Email KGtheLegend Send a private message to KGtheLegend Click to send KGtheLegend an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jbark:
I know in constructed tournaments I enjoy when people scoop early. Then I can take the long and awaited duece I've had holding for 2+ hours or go grab a bite. This happens all the time with combo decks or when a dude get land screwed.

+1

As far as scooping to spite someone, I personally don't do it, but there are is a guy at my LGS who does it all the time to spite people, especially when Swords/Jitte are in play. We just continue to play like the hit went through and Sword/Jitte effects go off. He still hasn't learned to not scoop though. =)

 
oneofchaos
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posted June 10, 2013 09:59 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for oneofchaos Click Here to Email oneofchaos Send a private message to oneofchaos Click to send oneofchaos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
There is a reason why at my house if you die and somebody has one of your permanents you get to keep it. Fixed some of the bs
 
thror
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posted June 10, 2013 10:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Mansur:

I read random insults and emotionally charged drivel and see a child who is unable to control how he feels. I'm not sure I'm the one who needs to grow up here.

you're getting awfully big for your britches with that 'new member' tag under your name still. chill out.

you really dont think having FOUR of your permanents confiscated is going to end someones game. especially when that effect is attached to an 11/11?? grow up quit whining.

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walkerdog
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posted June 10, 2013 10:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for walkerdog Click Here to Email walkerdog Send a private message to walkerdog Click to send walkerdog an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View walkerdog's Have/Want ListView walkerdog's Have/Want List
Multiplayer is about winning, having fun, and hanging out with others, generally not in that order. Act accordingly.
 
jaromirjagr
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posted June 10, 2013 11:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for jaromirjagr Click Here to Email jaromirjagr Send a private message to jaromirjagr Click to send jaromirjagr an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View jaromirjagr's Have/Want ListView jaromirjagr's Have/Want List
Dividing your attacks might have been a better option.Although Ive played games with my play group where Ive ramped up and gotten out early fatties and planeswalkers like kharn and then taken pitty on players.Then later they began to recoup and destroyed my playing field and then who looks like the idiot.Really if anyone had the chance to win they'd take it.Such is magic the gathering.But i play edh with people who all have put money into their decks and are experienced players.Maybe if I knew someone was new to the game I would lay off.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by jaromirjagr on June 10, 2013]
 
keywacat
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posted June 10, 2013 11:31 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for keywacat Click Here to Email keywacat Send a private message to keywacat Click to send keywacat an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View keywacat's Have/Want ListView keywacat's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by walkerdog:
Multiplayer is about winning, having fun, and hanging out with others, generally not in that order. Act accordingly.

And beer, don't forget the beer. (there is reason why my league meets in a pub )

 
stab107
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posted June 10, 2013 11:41 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for stab107 Click Here to Email stab107 Send a private message to stab107 Click to send stab107 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View stab107's Have/Want ListView stab107's Have/Want List
Is this guy Marlo returned?
 
MasterWolf
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posted June 10, 2013 11:55 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MasterWolf Click Here to Email MasterWolf Send a private message to MasterWolf Click to send MasterWolf an Instant MessageVisit MasterWolf's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I would usually scoop and prevent you from gaining the benefit. Same in the Sword scenarios. Don't expect me to let you gain advantage while you are killing me. I'll try and stop you any way possible. Including conceding. Plus, normally I'd rather the people NOT trying to kill me win if I can't. So factor it into your attack decisions. If you really need that Sword trigger, maybe don't attack the person about to die.
 
choco man
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posted June 10, 2013 01:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by coasterdude84:
This is why I don't play EDH.

This is why I don't play [with players I don't want to play with].

It's got nothing to do with EDH.

If the guy whose permanents you took with It that Betrays dies, don't you lose his permanents anyways? Losing 4-6 cards would put anyone in a bad enough position that they would die to the next thing. If he was in an obviously bad spot with no way to recover, it's different from rage quitting.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by choco man on June 10, 2013]

 
junichi
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posted June 10, 2013 02:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
The guy is down 4 permanents early in the game and has taken 22 damage, so it is pretty much over for him. Knowing he has no chance of coming back, I would rather he scoop early so this game can end faster and next game can begin.

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GenghisTom
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posted June 10, 2013 02:30 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for GenghisTom Click Here to Email GenghisTom Send a private message to GenghisTom Click to send GenghisTom an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It sounds like there is some dysfunction with your play group. The fact that you felt the need to reach out to a forum for a question of ethics goes to show there is a significant lack of communication going on between you and the members in your playgroup.

If something bothers you then let it be known to them, and try to work it out. Joining a forum in an attempt to vent your frustration as well as hope for people you don't know to validate your position without any contextual knowledge is the wrong play.

You will find no answers here.
You'll just get insta-flamed.

 

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