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Author Topic:   with new legend rule,will gaea's crandle be banned?
kourk
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posted June 22, 2013 01:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for kourk Click Here to Email kourk Send a private message to kourk Click to send kourk an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View kourk's Have/Want ListView kourk's Have/Want List
hey guys,as topic says,now that legend rule changed will affect gaea's crandle? u think it's needed to get banned or it will be no diferrence at all?
 
caquaa
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posted June 22, 2013 01:51 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by kourk:
u think it's needed to get banned

no

 
Zeckk
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posted June 22, 2013 02:45 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by kourk:
hey guys,as topic says,now that legend rule changed will affect gaea's crandle? u think it's needed to get banned or it will be no diferrence at all?

For the millionth time - you don't beat elves through land hate, you beat elves with sweepers, hosers, and disruption.

 
Devonin
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posted June 22, 2013 07:36 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
One turn of getting 12 mana instead of 6 won't make a difference in the overall performance of Elves in legacy.

It might shave the occasional turn off the fireball now and then, but it won't break the deck or anything.

 
Volcanon
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posted June 22, 2013 04:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
You could do this before too, at least before Kamigawa. It was well known that you could use a second cradle before it dies, and keep the first one.
 
thror
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posted June 22, 2013 04:47 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
You could do this before too, at least before Kamigawa. It was well known that you could use a second cradle before it dies, and keep the first one.

uh, what? no you couldnt. The pre kamigawa legend rule was 'if one is in play, NOBODY can play a 2nd one'.

 
Volcanon
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posted June 22, 2013 06:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Nope
 
Devonin
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posted June 22, 2013 07:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
Nope

From MTG's website announcing the change in Kamigawa:

"The "legend rule," created back in Magic's earliest days as support for a new creature type—Legend, has long been on the minds of R&D. The rule makes a lot of sense from a flavor standpoint—should you try to summon a Legend that is already on the battlefield, your spell will fail—but flavor no longer drives the bus as far as rules go. "

 
Goaswerfraiejen
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posted June 24, 2013 07:44 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Goaswerfraiejen Click Here to Email Goaswerfraiejen Send a private message to Goaswerfraiejen Click to send Goaswerfraiejen an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Goaswerfraiejen's Have/Want ListView Goaswerfraiejen's Have/Want List
I don't see any reason to ban Cradle at the moment, no. But I do think that as a result of the rules change, it's likely to get banned at some point in the future.

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Volcanon
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posted June 24, 2013 08:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
From MTG's website announcing the change in Kamigawa:

"The "legend rule," created back in Magic's earliest days as support for a new creature type—Legend, has long been on the minds of R&D. The rule makes a lot of sense from a flavor standpoint—should you try to summon a Legend that is already on the battlefield, your spell will fail—but flavor no longer drives the bus as far as rules go. "


You could still cast the spells. And yoi could tap the second cradle before it was sent to the yard. Go look up old pro tours. This was a favorite play of some pros.

 
chaos021
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posted June 24, 2013 08:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for chaos021 Click Here to Email chaos021 Send a private message to chaos021 Click to send chaos021 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View chaos021's Have/Want ListView chaos021's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
You could still cast the spells. And yoi could tap the second cradle before it was sent to the yard. Go look up old pro tours. This was a favorite play of some pros.

Trolls be trolling.

 
iccarus
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posted June 24, 2013 08:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View iccarus's Have/Want ListView iccarus's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
You could still cast the spells. And yoi could tap the second cradle before it was sent to the yard. Go look up old pro tours. This was a favorite play of some pros.

Why don't you actually provide the evidence to back up your claim?

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caquaa
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posted June 24, 2013 08:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
I do recall being able to do that quite a (very) long while ago. I don't recall what the rules were at the time, but I think it had something to do with when state based effects were checked. If you had a cradle in play, you could play a new one, tap it, then it died.
 
thror
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posted June 24, 2013 09:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
ill counter source him before the canadian sticks his entire leg in his mouth

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/nassimketita-rules-editorial-05282013-legend-wait-for-it-ary/

" the original legend rules looked like. If a legendary creature (there weren’t any other legendary permanents yet) was on the battlefield, no other player could cast that card."

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/8016-Blog-Fanatic-The-Legends-Rule-Revisited-plus-Fun-with-Banning-and-Restricting.html

"The old legends rule needed to change. It made it impossible to push high-powered legendary cards, because games came down to a race to see who could play theirs first. Witness the days of Tolarian Academy - players had to run janky cards like Lingering Mirage in Urza's Block Constructed because there were few other ways for blue to deal with an opposing Tolarian Academy."

So yea, version #1 - first one in play wins.
Version #2 (kamigawa change) - 2+ in play, all gone

 
Leeroy
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posted June 25, 2013 01:05 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Leeroy Click Here to Email Leeroy Send a private message to Leeroy Click to send Leeroy an Instant MessageVisit Leeroy's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
And this is exactly why you should only use official sources.

quote:
Fifth Edition:

K.19 - Legendary Permanents
K.19.Ruling.8 - Due to Rule K.19.2, a Legendary Land with a mana source ability can have its ability used before it is buried. Also, a mana source ability (but not an instant or sorcery ability) of another permanent could sacrifice a legendary permanent before it is buried. [D'Angelo 11/24/98]


quote:
Sixth Edition:

K.17 - Legendary Permanents
K.17.Ruling.1 - Because they are put into the graveyard as a state-based effect, it is not possible to use any abilities of the permanent before it is gone. This includes mana abilities. [D'Angelo 1999/05/01]


 
Volcanon
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posted June 25, 2013 03:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thanks for making me not dig this stuff up.
The best part about being right is that I'm right.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Volcanon on June 25, 2013]
 
Devonin
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posted June 25, 2013 03:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
I will point out though, that you chose to quote the clause that made you wrong :P

Also, 6 months out of the 10 years it worked that way.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Devonin on June 25, 2013]

 
Absurd90
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posted June 25, 2013 04:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Absurd90 Click Here to Email Absurd90 Send a private message to Absurd90 Click to send Absurd90 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Now that legendary lands dont strip mine each other isnt this a perfect setup for legendary dual lands?
 
junichi
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posted June 25, 2013 05:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Absurd90:
Now that legendary lands dont strip mine each other isnt this a perfect setup for legendary dual lands?

Me like.

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majicman
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posted June 25, 2013 06:55 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for majicman Click Here to Email majicman Send a private message to majicman Click to send majicman an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
"Legendary Dual Lands"

That only come as foil Mythics

Now that would be Legendary!!

[Edited 1 times, lastly by majicman on June 25, 2013]

 
choco man
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posted June 25, 2013 08:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Absurd90:
Now that legendary lands dont strip mine each other isnt this a perfect setup for legendary dual lands?

I hope they can be more imaginative than that.

 
Zeckk
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posted June 25, 2013 09:28 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
I hope they can be more imaginative than that.

Unoriginal, sure. But from a design standpoint its a home run for EDH and some legacy decks, especially for keeping legacy alive without doings things to the reserve list.

 
caquaa
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posted June 26, 2013 12:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
I hope they can be more imaginative than that.

thats the problem, they're slowly running out of imaginative things to do for lands to actually be useful. If the downside is too large, it simply doesn't make the cut. There is no in between.

 
choco man
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posted June 26, 2013 12:40 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
A dual land that is a dual land other than a legendary subtype doesn't seem very good to me.

In standard, it would be strictly better than basic land since there's essentially nothing in the format that punishes a greedy manabase. It's also a much more blatant case of "lazy design" that was bashed in the BOP thread.

You're making a point that it is hard to imagine new drawbacks for dual mana lands and have them still be competitive, correct? That's true, M10 lands weren't too long ago and they've already been around for 4 years.

 
Zeckk
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posted June 26, 2013 02:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
A dual land that is a dual land other than a legendary subtype doesn't seem very good to me.

In standard, it would be strictly better than basic land since there's essentially nothing in the format that punishes a greedy manabase. It's also a much more blatant case of "lazy design" that was bashed in the BOP thread.

You're making a point that it is hard to imagine new drawbacks for dual mana lands and have them still be competitive, correct? That's true, M10 lands weren't too long ago and they've already been around for 4 years.


I very much doubt that any legendary duals would be in a standard-legal set. I was thinking more in terms of the upcoming commander product.

 

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