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Author Topic:   Better fake cards.
keywacat
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posted January 11, 2014 02:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for keywacat Click Here to Email keywacat Send a private message to keywacat Click to send keywacat an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View keywacat's Have/Want ListView keywacat's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
They've apparently been busted by the police now.

That's simply one company brazen enough to publicly advertise their services. It should be taken that others are quietly turning out incrementally higher-quality counterfeits for their own profit.

The new security measure in M14 going forward demonstrates that counterfeiting has reached a level of skill that threatens WotC's intellectual properties. The company is quite aggressive about combating threats to its properties, both serious and not.

They have also proved that they are quite sensitive to the secondary market with Modern Masters, underprinting special edition products and the reserved list itself. I am quite sure the company intends to do more to combat counterfeiting of older cards, the question is what measures will reassure the fan / player base whilst not, at the same time, fanning the flames of belief that high quality counterfeits are a pandemic? That is the real trick there, to balance the reserved list, the faith players / collectors have in the authenticity of secondary market cards AND the tendency for players / collectors to panic.

MaRo wrote an article last year about this: Twenty Things That Were Going to Kill Magic. Some of those were serious threats, though none strike at the heart of the collectable nature of the game as hard as this threat does.

We can only speculate about what WotC will do, though if discussions of this problem do not subside with one police action I expect the company will be forced to make an announcement about their intentions before year's end.

Cheers;
keywacat

 
JayC
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posted January 11, 2014 11:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for JayC Click Here to Email JayC Click to send JayC an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hasbro is a billion dollar company that manufactures in China. You can be sure they will take action in every way possible...and you can be sure the Chinese Government will not allow billions of dollars to be jeopardized by some random printing presses in Shenzhen or otherwise. It only takes one phone call to the local government official with a tidy bribe to end that ****, immediately. I've been working in/directly with China for the last decade and that is the reality of things there.
 
Zeckk
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posted January 12, 2014 06:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JayC:
Hasbro is a billion dollar company that manufactures in China. You can be sure they will take action in every way possible...and you can be sure the Chinese Government will not allow billions of dollars to be jeopardized by some random printing presses in Shenzhen or otherwise. It only takes one phone call to the local government official with a tidy bribe to end that ****, immediately. I've been working in/directly with China for the last decade and that is the reality of things there.

I'm sorry, but that's incredibly naive. China is literally the worlds largest manufacturer of counterfeit goods. This is hardly the only counterfeit operation in China - its merely the first one to garner the attention of the mainstream magic community.

More to the point, WOTC has deemed this enough of a threat to their revenue that they are rolling out anti-counterfeit technology for future sets.

The real joke is that the best targets for counterfeiting will not have this technology. Fetches, Liliana, goyf, etc. The Chinese manufacturer only has to find buyers worldwide, and let the secondary sellers bring them to the US and EU while staying largely out of reach of consequences.

 
hammr7
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posted January 12, 2014 08:09 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hammr7 Click Here to Email hammr7 Send a private message to hammr7 Click to send hammr7 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Chinese enforcement of copyright and trademark laws has everything to do with a net benefit to China. When counterfeiting CDs or DVDs or Microsoft Office, the Chinese economy save billions of dollars, so that is good for China as a country until international pressure gets in the way.

Chinese counterfeits work well when the company being counterfeited does not have a presence in China, and the items are high value. That adds to the Chinese economy.

So when you get the street corner Rolex watch that was made in China, China isn't losing production dollars from Rolex, because Rolex doesn't produce there. All those $2 to $20 knockoffs are incremental business, and Rolex doesn't have the in-country presence to pressure the counterfeiters to stop.

And a lot of Chinese counterfeiting is illegal product made at the same facilities (and sometimes to the same build specifications) that make legitimate product. So you get the knock-off headphones or guitar or handbag that often are illegal to the extent they illegally applied trademarked logos and identifiers.

Granted, there are also really bad counterfeits of these same groups of products, but when your country makes 10 million handbags ranging from cheap to ultra-expensive, until the logos are applied you don't know if you are dealing with a counterfeit.

But as noted already, Hasbro is huge and does a lot of business in China. They know the Chinese system and can get successful Chinese businesses to act on their behalf. The argument quickly becomes a balance between millions of dollars in legitimate Hasbro business versus thousands of dollars of problematic print business. The millions of dollars usually win, and the Chinese government is well known for heavy-handed punishment.

 
JayC
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posted January 12, 2014 10:06 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JayC Click Here to Email JayC Click to send JayC an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeckk:
I'm sorry, but that's incredibly naive. China is literally the worlds largest manufacturer of counterfeit goods. This is hardly the only counterfeit operation in China - its merely the first one to garner the attention of the mainstream magic community.

More to the point, WOTC has deemed this enough of a threat to their revenue that they are rolling out anti-counterfeit technology for future sets.

The real joke is that the best targets for counterfeiting will not have this technology. Fetches, Liliana, goyf, etc. The Chinese manufacturer only has to find buyers worldwide, and let the secondary sellers bring them to the US and EU while staying largely out of reach of consequences.


If you don't work in China then you aren't witnessing the transformation of China going on right now. China has changed so much in the last decade - so let me give you an example since I work in Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Panyu - the major epicenters of this manufacturing and most of the worlds largest manufacturing overall.

10 years ago, you could buy DVD's on the street corner just about everywhere you went for a few RMB. You could go to the market and buy fake shoes, watches, whatever. It was rampant and it was done freely without regard.

Nowadays, my fellow employees overseas tell me to pay attention, look around before making said purchases. Nowadays I can't just copy this or that when I go over to make for my wife/children with all of my vendors. Some still? Absolutely. But the mindset is already changing - their is concern about the authorities in a way there wasn't before. That change comes from the enforcement from the top.

If you think that they're stopping it at this level, but not when a billion dollar customer is making complaints, then you are the naive one. Things are changing, but change takes time. People will still try to counterfeit, certainly, but the difference today is that China is listening and paying attention to it's reputation and keeping their mind on their money. If the world cannot ensure the security of their intellectual property in China, then China may/does lose it's ability to be the manufacturer of those goods.

The labor price in China has already risen so much that they are already losing these opportunities to the Philippines, Vietnam, Madagascar, and so on. If their wages aren't the best then they need to offer some alternative and that lay within their willingness to respect the western worlds copyright enforcement.

 
triplesunflower
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posted January 13, 2014 12:00 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for triplesunflower Click to send triplesunflower an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JayC:
If you don't work in China then you aren't witnessing the transformation of China going on right now. China has changed so much in the last decade - so let me give you an example since I work in Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Panyu - the major epicenters of this manufacturing and most of the worlds largest manufacturing overall.

10 years ago, you could buy DVD's on the street corner just about everywhere you went for a few RMB. You could go to the market and buy fake shoes, watches, whatever. It was rampant and it was done freely without regard.

Nowadays, my fellow employees overseas tell me to pay attention, look around before making said purchases. Nowadays I can't just copy this or that when I go over to make for my wife/children with all of my vendors. Some still? Absolutely. But the mindset is already changing - their is concern about the authorities in a way there wasn't before. That change comes from the enforcement from the top.

If you think that they're stopping it at this level, but not when a billion dollar customer is making complaints, then you are the naive one. Things are changing, but change takes time. People will still try to counterfeit, certainly, but the difference today is that China is listening and paying attention to it's reputation and keeping their mind on their money. If the world cannot ensure the security of their intellectual property in China, then China may/does lose it's ability to be the manufacturer of those goods.


Yes, the winds of change are blowing...

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sample-NGC-Grade-Coins-Free-shipping-hot-sale-MS-69-2013-American-Liberty-Silver-Eagle-1/1456946640.html

A major corporation. And those hologram stickers that aren't worth the foil they're printed on...

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DHL-Free-Shipping-500pcs-lot-Mix-Order-Mallard-Duck-Canada-Silver-Coin-Rare-Gold-Royal-Mint/1164289916.html

Canada

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mix-order-1000-pcs-lot-free-shipping-US-silver-eagle-coin-non-magnetic-dated-1987-1988/1081281876.html

United States

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/506351

And on and on...

Who's being nave?

[Edited 1 times, lastly by triplesunflower on January 13, 2014]

 
daner
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posted January 13, 2014 06:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for daner Click Here to Email daner Click to send daner an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View daner's Have/Want ListView daner's Have/Want List
Seems to me, from everything I've seen, that these fakes are printed in English. Are they not?

Does that make as, as of now, Italian, Russian, German etc etc....the more obscure language cards THAT much more valuable? Bc they are for sure legit?

One would assume along with English they also counterfeited Japanese/Chinese languages.

 
Goaswerfraiejen
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posted January 13, 2014 07:41 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Goaswerfraiejen Click Here to Email Goaswerfraiejen Send a private message to Goaswerfraiejen Click to send Goaswerfraiejen an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daner:
Seems to me, from everything I've seen, that these fakes are printed in English. Are they not?

Does that make as, as of now, Italian, Russian, German etc etc....the more obscure language cards THAT much more valuable? Bc they are for sure legit?

One would assume along with English they also counterfeited Japanese/Chinese languages.



They're hardly "for sure" legit. Perhaps they're more likely to be legit at the moment, but it's not that hard to change the language.

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ryanghall
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posted January 13, 2014 09:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryanghall Click Here to Email ryanghall Send a private message to ryanghall Click to send ryanghall an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryanghall's Have/Want ListView ryanghall's Have/Want List
Know how everyone always bitches about the print run lines on older unlimited cards and some say they don't want those lines?

I'm glad I went out of my way to get power with print run lines on them.

 
WeedIan
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posted January 13, 2014 01:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
Man some people are panicking over this like Magic is dead. Its quite humorous.

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iccarus
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posted January 13, 2014 01:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Man some people are panicking over this like Magic is dead. Its quite humorous.

The SCG article did not help matters much.

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WeedIan
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posted January 13, 2014 03:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by iccarus:
The SCG article did not help matters much.


I don't see why people listen to that guy ever.

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stab107
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posted January 13, 2014 11:11 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for stab107 Click Here to Email stab107 Send a private message to stab107 Click to send stab107 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View stab107's Have/Want ListView stab107's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by iccarus:
The SCG article did not help matters much.


How so? The article states after a lengthy summary of the situation that no one should panic. I do believe this will blow over as he speculates. What are people focussing on that is causing them to panic?

One thing that has not really been discussed is the potential long term impact to mtgo. For many people Magic is a social interaction. However if the counterfeits do become so rampant that it is an issue I suspect WotC will be pushing a move to digital only. Mtgo is a closed system completely under WotC's control. I suspect there are even some people thinking of converting.

 
oneofchaos
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posted January 13, 2014 11:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for oneofchaos Click Here to Email oneofchaos Send a private message to oneofchaos Click to send oneofchaos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stab107:
How so? The article states after a lengthy summary of the situation that no one should panic. I do believe this will blow over as he speculates. What are people focussing on that is causing them to panic?

One thing that has not really been discussed is the potential long term impact to mtgo. For many people Magic is a social interaction. However if the counterfeits do become so rampant that it is an issue I suspect WotC will be pushing a move to digital only. Mtgo is a closed system completely under WotC's control. I suspect there are even some people thinking of converting.


While WOTC may have problems out of their control in the real world, the digital world is entirely their own problems. If they can't hurry up and fix that there will be zero migration.

 
WeedIan
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posted January 14, 2014 03:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by stab107:
How so? The article states after a lengthy summary of the situation that no one should panic. I do believe this will blow over as he speculates. What are people focussing on that is causing them to panic?

One thing that has not really been discussed is the potential long term impact to mtgo. For many people Magic is a social interaction. However if the counterfeits do become so rampant that it is an issue I suspect WotC will be pushing a move to digital only. Mtgo is a closed system completely under WotC's control. I suspect there are even some people thinking of converting.


I think its likely more the "ignorance is bliss" if you don't know about it you can't worry and panic.

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iccarus
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posted January 14, 2014 06:15 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stab107:
How so? The article states after a lengthy summary of the situation that no one should panic. I do believe this will blow over as he speculates. What are people focussing on that is causing them to panic?

What WeedIan said. All people need to hear is that there are high quality fakes out there and then the panic selling starts in. The article makes people aware of the situation and includes some good information, but not everyone is going to read it. Most people are going to hear about it from a person who heard about it from a person who read the article, which just means key points get lost in the retelling.

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MTDetermine
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posted January 14, 2014 07:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MTDetermine Click Here to Email MTDetermine Send a private message to MTDetermine Click to send MTDetermine an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Post 2: Local Conspiracy Theory (Please note this is pure speculative thoughts and may not be real)

Back in 2012, MTG China Main Distributor's sale of Chinese sealed products were suffering as English sealed products were parallel imported and were 10% cheaper. In early 2012, some "very good fake T2 English cards" turned up for a while and disappeared. According to local China shops, afterthat, sales of Chinese sealed products surged and few buy T2 English sealed products. There were some rumors then that the "very good fake T2 English cards" were engineered by people who will benefit from sales of Chinese sealed products. These rumors were never proven.

I just spoke to a Chinese financier who played MTG. He told me that other than Shenzhen, there is a massive printing industry in Hebei, just south-west of Beijing. According to him, difficulty of duplicating MTG stuff includes printing quality, type of paper, AND blueprints of the original cards. He said that taking a T2 card and attempting to duplicate it will not yield sufficient resolution to make it look real. The printer will need something with more resolution --> blueprints.

It is likely that each country's main distributor has access to such blueprints. Therefore, when the good quality fake T2 English cards surfaced in early 2012, there were rumors that an insider was involved, likely someone who will benefit from increased sales of Chinese sealed products.

It is good to note that even a connected insider does not own a good printing factory that requires millions of USD in equipment investment. I mean, will you spend a tonne on an industrial printer to try to perfect duplicating a Beta Black Lotus worth $3000? The guess is that, if this whole thing started from an insider, it starts to spread and expand as:

1) Collaborators realized that it is a profitable scheme if it continues to expand in scale and scope.
2) Once out of the bottle, the genie can consume its master ---> Once the factory realized they have the expertise to product a hot product, there is no stopping them printing it for others willing to make.

The Chinese printer involved advertised their yearly revenue as US$30m. As someone who worked in China for 2 years, I can assure you that a company with official annual revenue of US$30m is like to have total revenue of like US$60-90m a year. Reason is simple. In China, sales tax on products are 17%. So most manufacturers try to avoid issuing official invoice for their sales as they hate to pay that 17%.

A company with yearly revenue of US$60-90m is considered big. Best way out is really for WOTC to grease some hands in Shenzhen, who in turn will invite the factory owner for a chat on "stop and desist" at least for MTG products. If I am the owner of a US$60-90m factory, I will likely stop this on my own accord if I know this thing will blow up in my face due to public attention. No point throwing my US$60-90m business away for a $5/set item.

In China, going through the courts in this type of case is not a good idea, as from first hearing to appeal, an entire year could lapse. Even if you win the appeal, applying for Court Execution Order is not that simple and straight forward, especially if the other party has the "right connections". There are ample stories of Court Execution Order not granted for years even after the victorious appeal.

 
isetfire
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posted January 14, 2014 08:06 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for isetfire Click Here to Email isetfire Send a private message to isetfire Click to send isetfire an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Now the Chinese are making a counterfeit Titanic. Is nothing sacred?!

http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-firm-build-replica-titanic-085706407.html

 
CoupDeGrace
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posted January 14, 2014 08:17 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for CoupDeGrace Click Here to Email CoupDeGrace Send a private message to CoupDeGrace Click to send CoupDeGrace an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
They can produce fake noodles, fake egg(s) and so on. I am not surprised that this will happen.

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Hooskdaddy
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posted January 14, 2014 01:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Hooskdaddy Click Here to Email Hooskdaddy Send a private message to Hooskdaddy Click to send Hooskdaddy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ql-q0INFZI

Can we take up a collection to hire Seal Team Six to go get this guy? It would be nice to see our tax dollars at work. I mean in a round about way this guy making these is kind of like the Osama bin Laden of magic cards meaning he is terrorizing us.

Anwyas, write, call, email WOTC and make them aware of the video.

 
oneofchaos
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posted January 14, 2014 01:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for oneofchaos Click Here to Email oneofchaos Send a private message to oneofchaos Click to send oneofchaos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by isetfire:
Now the Chinese are making a counterfeit Titanic. Is nothing sacred?!

http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-firm-build-replica-titanic-085706407.html


Considering how crappy Chinese knockoffs usually are, this titanic is probably going to float.

 
coasterdude84
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posted January 16, 2014 07:49 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
At the risk of invoking the wrath of the mods, does anyone here have one of these they'd be willing to send me? I'd like to have it as a reference to know what to look for.
 
Timmyhill
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posted January 17, 2014 02:40 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Timmyhill Click Here to Email Timmyhill Send a private message to Timmyhill Click to send Timmyhill an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Are most alters done with fake cards? I've always wondered if it was a problem.

Why would they spend money on a card when its just going to get painted over. What would be the best way to test an altered card? Just by how the back feels?

 
WeedIan
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posted January 17, 2014 07:14 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
So i've noticed multiple people post on facebook, twitter that these are easy to spot (Including Stu and Ben from SCG )

I'm again on the side that Chas made a fear mongering article that is going to let SCG buy more collections

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MTDetermine
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posted January 17, 2014 08:08 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MTDetermine Click Here to Email MTDetermine Send a private message to MTDetermine Click to send MTDetermine an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
So i've noticed multiple people post on facebook, twitter that these are easy to spot (Including Stu and Ben from SCG )

I'm again on the side that Chas made a fear mongering article that is going to let SCG buy more collections


Hi Ian, I am in china and cannot access Facebook or twitter. Care to share the comments on why these are easy to spot? Thanks

 

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