First I would like to say, the trade was perfect. The communication perfect. The other gentleman was perfect honour and everything was smooth as can be. I have NO problem with it, it is DONE and OVER and I am QUITE happy with the results.

... All of the results, except, the rating. I am not sure I deserved a "4" instead of a "5". I attempted to resolve this with the gentleman and he said:
"Reading your PMs is painful. If you disagree with my reference, please PM a moderator or post in the BTA to have it discussed."

The BTA is for bad traders, and neither one of us is a bad trader. And I do not know who is a moderator. So I am posting here instead for honest insight, if I really did something wrong to deserve a worse rating.

SO, here is the chain of events:

----- Original Message -----
From him:
Hi, you posted:

Edit: Offer
I would do:
1 nevinyral's disk $4
1 winter orb $3
rofellos $18
maze of ith MP/HP $15
Birds of paradise $3
your
mirror universe $30-$36

Other possible trade:
My: (rounding prices down)
Wheel of fortune $16 LP
Demonic tutor $12 LP+
2x altar of dementia LP $14
4x Kor Haven NM/LP++ $25
total: $67 (and I am harshly grading my cards)

your: (NO rounding)
undiscovered paradise $5.50 LP
All Hallow's Eve $26.59 LP
sinkhole UL $25.02 LP
assuming all of yours are LP
Total: $57

Thank you for making an offer. I'm not sure we're on the same page. Some of the cards I need from Unlimited but not revised. Beyond that, a lot of them are collection needs, I strongly prefer NM so I don't have to replace them with NM ones later but thats OK.
I couldn't do either of the ones above but below is a counter, let me know how you feel about it - I'm coming from a different place then you so I'm not sure how they match up with what you're using to value them. I use the buylist (not sell list) on SCG, CardKingdom, TCG Mid and eBay completed auctions.
My:
Sinkhole LP
Your:
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Jedit Ojanen
Tolaria
Johan
Kasimir the Lone Wolf
Thanks!
------------------------

From me:
I would do this:
you: Sinkhole LP
For my:
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Jedit Ojanen
Tolaria
Johan
Kasimir the Lone Wolf

---------------
From Him:
Anything Legends or AQ is part of a collection. I'm always willing to trade them but prefer to do that for other collection needs or it would have to be in my favor. Sorry, I know its not fair but as part of a collection, I value them a bit higher then if they were a single on their own.
Could you tell me the condition of these?
Jedit Ojanen
Tolaria
Johan
Kasimir the Lone Wolf
Thank you!

--------------
From me:
----- Original Message -----
They are all truly mint/nearmint, except tolaria which is slightly played (SP) (a slight whitening around some of the border, the card face looks untouched).
Rofellos is SP or better also.

-----
From him:
----- Original Message -----
Oh it says NM on your list for the Rofellos. Sorry to be a pain but could you confirm the condition when you have a chance?

-------
From me:
----- Original Message -----
You can see the picture of it here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171267690856?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

It would pass as NM I am sure. But I always tell people everything is SP if there is even the slightest teeniest mark.

--------------
From him:
----- Original Message -----
Ya, looks LP without seeing the back. Thats OK though, very close to NM, you're right.
Let me take a picture of the Sinkhole when I get home and send it over. I should be good to go on my end though, thank you!

----
From him:
Do you mind sending first due to refs? I hate asking
I send out the same day that I receive if I can, otherwise I always send out the following morning at 8:30am on my way to work.
Is there anything I can add or that other legends card? Im working on collecting Legends, NP if not!

----
From me:

Tracking:
9114901230803265726326

-------

From him:
I received, thank you! I just got home so will have to send out tomorrow, but it will be in the mail at 8:30am. Please let me know when you receive.
A note on the grading, the Tolaria is Major Play due to whitening around all corners and sides, front and back, not SP or Played so two grades lower. The Rofellos is definitely not NM as listed and I would make the case for Played- over SP, although it could go either way so 2-3 grades lower. There are scratches on the back and a tiny crease on the front, which can only be seen in the right light, plus some shuffle nicks. The crease immediately makes it Played, the additional wear and loss of shine makes it PL- according to blackborder.com's condition guide.
Not a huge deal, but eh, I thought it was worth mentioning since the Rofellos constituted 90% of the trade value and I based my side off of a NM/LP Rofellos.

---
From me:

Im sorry! IS there anything I can do to make up for it? I can send more cards or add some cash?

The chain of events (Shorter)
1. I offered a trade
2. He declined the original trade, and offered a new trade
3. I agreed, then warned him of the condition of my "rofellos" green card
4. He looked at PICTURES of my rofellos, and agreed, yes, it was not NM.
5. I sent FIRST to assure he could see my cards in advance, just in case he has ANY issues at all, I can take care of them
6. He received my cards, and complained a little about the condition, says "not a big deal"
7. I offered him more cards, or cash, to make up for the problem even though it "wasn't a big deal".
8. He declines further compensation, and leaves me a 4 rating.

I do not feel I deserve a 4 for several reasons:
1. I went out of my way to warn him my rofellos was not NM from the outset, and shown him pictures.
2. I sent first to assure he could see my cards before sending his.
3. I offered compensation after he complained about the condition of my card.
4. I had perfect communication through the entire transaction to assure he could get anything he needed should the need arise.
5. This was my first time grading a card for a trade done online. That is why I took pictures, because I am NOT confident in my ability.

From Him:

----- Original Message -----
Reading your PMs is painful. If you disagree with my reference, please PM a moderator or post in the BTA to have it discussed.

From me:
----- Original Message -----
It clearly says:

"Unacceptable reasons to post someone on the BTA:

2. You have a problem with the reference they left you, or they left no reference."

Might you suggest another option? That one is a bad idea.

quote:

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Originally posted by stab107:
Cards were not in the condition specified (edge whitening on the tolaria and more importantly, a crease in the Rofellos that was not visible in the pictures). Grading guides are plentiful and generally easy to follow. Take it as a lesson learned and move forward to be more clear about grading (scans are great and scanners are dirt cheap nowadays).

Edit: there are no pics of the cards from the receiver so I am basing my response on his statements being accurate. It does sound like the cards were not in the condition described.

---

I don't get this reasoning. If he sent pics, what else do you want him to do? Unless the pics are awful, which I believe would've been brought up, you're just being impossible.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos021:
I don't get this reasoning. If he sent pics, what else do you want him to do? Unless the pics are awful, which I believe would've been brought up, you're just being impossible.

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Like I said in the edit, without better pics (scans), this is a tough case to actually judge.

quote:

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Originally posted by stab107:
Like I said in the edit, without better pics (scans), this is a tough case to actually judge.

Let's also be clear that I am not the other party and I completely disagree with his "you are clearly a child and cannot communicate" comment. The OP did offer compensation, which I know a lot of traders here would not have done.

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I didn't mean to imply that you're the other person. I'm just not sure why anyone would need "better pics." kingtal0n even sent first and offered compensation. From what is presented, I know I wouldn't want to do anything with this other trader.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

5s are meant for exceptional trades.. everyone takes this for granted.. 4s are meant to be the norm. the old ref list convert all defaulted to 4s.. this is not ebay where you get deducted % off your final valuation fees for better seller rating.. suck it up and deal with yourself having a 4 instead of a 5.. the fact that you're whining about it screams you dont deserve a 5

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

quote:

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Originally posted by coolio:
so, here's the deal on those "5" and "4" grades in the references..

5s are meant for exceptional trades.. everyone takes this for granted.. 4s are meant to be the norm. the old ref list convert all defaulted to 4s.. this is not ebay where you get deducted % off your final valuation fees for better seller rating.. suck it up and deal with yourself having a 4 instead of a 5.. the fact that you're whining about it screams you dont deserve a 5

©

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quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:
so, here's the deal on those "5" and "4" grades in the references..

5s are meant for exceptional trades.. everyone takes this for granted.. 4s are meant to be the norm. the old ref list convert all defaulted to 4s.. this is not ebay where you get deducted % off your final valuation fees for better seller rating.. suck it up and deal with yourself having a 4 instead of a 5.. the fact that you're whining about it screams you dont deserve a 5

©

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quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:
so, here's the deal on those "5" and "4" grades in the references..

5s are meant for exceptional trades.. everyone takes this for granted.. 4s are meant to be the norm. the old ref list convert all defaulted to 4s.. this is not ebay where you get deducted % off your final valuation fees for better seller rating.. suck it up and deal with yourself having a 4 instead of a 5.. the fact that you're whining about it screams you dont deserve a 5

©

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The question is simply, "So I am posting here instead for honest insight, if I really did something wrong to deserve a worse rating."

To put another way, "did I do something wrong to deserve a 4 instead of a 5?"

to put it another way, "what did I do that got me a 4 instead of a 5"

quote:

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Originally posted by deegeebee:
My advice is to be more careful who you get references from. If I have any suspicion that someone is unreasonable like this I would never ask them to give me a reference. His being overly critical of your grading and refusing compensation should be a red flag that he might give you a bad rating.
Would you ask for a job reference from a boss who doesn't like you?

As a somewhat related side note, I am not sure why people advertise the number of missing references they have. Missing references are a bad thing as far as I am concerned. If only half the people you trade with want to give you a reference you are doing something wrong.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jb231:
People are lazy, I've probably lost about half my references here because people simply don't take the time to fill one out for me. Sort of annoying since most of those people are the ones who will ask me to give them a reference and I'll take the time to immediately do it for them but they don't return the favor. Usually I'll get an email a while later saying they never bothered to fill it out and don't care enough to re-send it/follow up with them.

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This has not been my experience at all. I wonder what we are doing differently.

quote:

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Originally posted by deegeebee:
This has not been my experience at all. I wonder what we are doing differently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kingtal0n:
The question is simply, "So I am posting here instead for honest insight, if I really did something wrong to deserve a worse rating."

To put another way, "did I do something wrong to deserve a 4 instead of a 5?"

to put it another way, "what did I do that got me a 4 instead of a 5"

I never complained about the trade, or the four itself. I wanted to know, what I could have done, in the future, to get a 5 Instead of a 4.

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4 is the norm

how many times ought i repeat that before you get that thru your thick skull? 5s are meant to be EXCEPTIONAL. the bar is different for everyone, you cant please them all.. why do you care about the rating? 4 = good trade/good standing, what's the serious big deal about a 5? The system should have honestly been left on a three tier "good/meh/bad" system.. every other yr, we have someone like you whining about getting a 4/not a 5 on some worthless $5 trade

your list of reasons for not deserving a 4 is laughable.. at best...
1. stating your card condition is a mutual courtesy as part of trading, this is the norm
2. you have 3 refs, of course you're sending first (more than likely will be the norm for a while)
3. offering compensation when your card condition is an issue this is the norm, or get bta'd
4. "perfect" communication.. you're trading online, communication is two way, he responded, thus it can be categorized his communication with you is also not lacking
5. card condition is expected to be a bare min to not be listed specifically, you really didnt do much out of the norm to be honest

so, i broke it down for you.. nothing you did was exceptional by any meaning of the word.. you are at the level of avg/norm of the majority of trades done, and what the majority of traders here have done..

and yes, for the simple fact you listed all those non spectacular reasons for warranting what you presume earned you a "5" is a LOT of whining.. aka complaining

©

__________________
Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.
-Christopher Hitchens

quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:

and yes, for the simple fact you listed all those non spectacular reasons for warranting what you presume earned you a "5" is a LOT of whining.. aka complaining

[/B]

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So here is where you can understand where I was coming from
1. I thought a 4 was bad. I thought it meant I f@##Ed up
2. Me thinking a 4 was bad should have been anticipated, since it was my first real trade ("first trade" was just me sending a card to somebody and telling them to send me anything back)
3. It was my first real trade, therefore, it seems logical for me to come and ask advice. Seeking to improve ones self for future conduct should not be seen as "whining".
4. telling a first timer that asking questions and trying to improve their process automatically gets them a "4" is not a nice thing to do. If everybody stops trying to improve themselves because of people like you the whole community will suffer.

thanks everyone, for helping me understand how the system works.

This is how I understand it:
There are two kinds of ratings by people in two categories.

A. The A rating is first given by veterans of the system and whom have inner knowledge of the system. These people leave a "4" for almost all trades done. The "4" to them represents that a normal every-day trade took place. This used to be the highest rating (normal rating)

B. The B rating is a "5" rating given by two primary classes of people. The first is people in the A Class. The second class of person who might leave a "5" are unaware that a "5" should be reserved for only the most outstanding trades. These people, as with many multiple choice questions given by online surveys, simply choose the highest rating to indicate they are fully satisfied. This "B" rating, bestows a "5" upon an individual who may only have deserved a "4" from an A person.

quote:

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Originally posted by deegeebee:
This has not been my experience at all. I wonder what we are doing differently.

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quote:

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8) How to get a 5 ref from me:
a) Grade your cards by this.
b)Ship in toploaders.
c)Do not stuff too many cards in 1 sleeve.
d)Include a note to remind me what the trade was, and an email address to match the trade to.

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Now all traders don't do this. It's entirely up to the trader how he/she wants to respond to a ref checker. a 4 rating is bar far better than 3 rating, don't ya think?

For example, some trader had also included 4x "poor" rares, and 8 random uncommons, along with a signed basic land (his motl username), cards were packaged perfectly and sent in a timely manner, then, you'd u'd think it would be a 5 rating. But like I said, it all depends on the trader.

__________________
28th in refs on Motl!

#1 Ref's for Arizona!

I offer 3rd party trading services. Email if interested.

I mean, the feedback system was down for a long time, and I just stopped caring.

It's more of a nuisance than anything else and as has been stated : 4 is good 5 is exceptional, but in the end...why let it bother you?

quote:

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Originally posted by JesusChristMD:
I've made ~70 deals on this forum and I have 8 refs.

I mean, the feedback system was down for a long time, and I just stopped caring.

It's more of a nuisance than anything else and as has been stated : 4 is good 5 is exceptional, but in the end...why let it bother you?

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Lol, a "nuisance?" It is how people determine who is safe to trade with. Sorry that bothers you...

quote:

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Originally posted by stu55:
Lol, a "nuisance?" It is how people determine who is safe to trade with. Sorry that bothers you...

As for the OP: 4 means you are a "good" trader, from what the replies are, you are grading was a bit off, if it was spot on, you would be excellent. Wouldn't even sweat it.

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