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Author Topic:   Does anyone remeber the "Good ol' days" of Magic?
Eron the Relentless
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posted June 28, 2000 10:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Magic now is broader and more exciting than ever... but does anyone have a problem with the direction this is all taking? We are now garonteed a new set every 4 months and live in the age of the "one turn kill". It is my impression that Magic was never designed to be THAT effective...

I love all of the new cards that have come out. My favorite set is Saga and next in line is Tempest and Prophecy. All of the new rules concepts are fun and make the game more interesting.
Magic is conststantly getting more complicated and thought provocing. But even though Wizards is making an attempt to spice up the game and slow it down a bit... the same old deck types will continue to dominate, and further isolate certain cards. The value of most rares will drop while a few soar. Type 2 and sealed deck are now the only fair tournament environments. And for now, type 2 is still too quick for my liking.

I have just been alerted to a new problem that will eventually arise in the "new" type 2. Unless the next set comes out with a whole chain of BIG mana producers, all of the new avatars and winds will see very little if any play. How are you supposed to play an Avatar of Woe or a Denying Wind when your opponent is pressing a turn 4-5 kill? When the Urza's block rotates out, the best cards, the NEW cards, will never see the light of day in a tournament environment. Type 2 is going to face a lot of problems. At first I thought that it would be better, but in fact deck types will become even more isolated because of it!!! Wizards doesn't think all of the time do they?? They won't even be able to restrict cards from the certain onslought of stompy decks because of the deck type- STOMPY!! How do you expect Wizards to restrict Seal of Might or Wild Might? The card isn't anywhere near THAT good. We're in a world of trouble here people...

I have separated Magic into 3 stages: old- this was from Alpha to Mirage. In the old stage, games were unseemingly slow and devoid of action for a while. This was fun at first, but frustrating soon later. During the old stage, You had to think about your opponent just as much as about what your deck was supposed to do... but now a-days you make a deck and play it just to win, and whoever is faster is the victor.
Then the middle stage... the "good old days"; of Mirage to Saga. The Rath cycle and a few sets preluding it made up the best stage in the history of Magic. Here, games lasted an average amt. of time... took skill, and involved many original types of theme decks. This period, was free of first and second turn kills. Play was fun, and your deck could essentialy dictate the length of the game providing your opponent's deck fit yours to a degree. This, the middle stage, ended the most fun way of playing Magic.
The third stage brought on a wide new variety of cards, rules, and an onslaught of sets and ideas. But the game began moving too swiftly, and many cards... many RARES now go unappreciated because they have no real use in an environment that houses decks that can garontee a kill on turn three or four. Which brings me to my point.
Magic is most fun when a game is drawn out, and when you must use your wits to win the game. Yet people are loosing sight of the fact that we need to have fun with this. What's so fun when you go to a turney and see 5 decks exactly alike? Or 8 total burn decks? How is that fun? Where is the desire to outwit your opponent? This is why I welcome Prophcy... and yes , Nemesis too. These sets are bringing back a little of what Magic used to be. Everyone's (type 2 that is) decks are gonna run slower and have to involve more creatures. This is what I've been longing for... and I hope that not too many of you dislike the sets, cause I think Wizards is setting a new trend for their next coupla sets. I just hope that all of you can appreciate the true way to play Magic. A slow game and a hard fought battle is absolutly fulfilling. (the one exception is when you have an annoying opponent who locks you down, draws out the game, and forces you to concede before he kills you)

As I play with some of my friends... I now notice a change in their behavior after a loss. During the "good ol' days", when I lost a game (especially in a tourney) I beat myself up over the fact that the game would have ended differently if I had done something else. I would be extremely critical over not attacking, destroying one creature over another, or letting an attack go through in order to attack my opponent... the list goes on. But now... my friends and I are not beating ourselves up over a bad move, we're saying- "if I only had one more turn" or- "if I had drawn this instead"... They were mad beacuse their deck didn't work fast enough. It is no longer a question of skill... but a measure of your deck's speed and compatibility compared to another deck.
This is wrong. And I strongly believe that people would enjoy the game more if all could be played fairly... when the winner is the person who outwitted all of his opponents. All I know is that I'm going to be extemely ****ed if Wizards puts out another "fast set" soon. Most of you who have replied agree... and that makes me believe that there is still hope for the ideal game...
Hope, while meaningless at first, may someday become reality... but until then I will be very angry with the turn the my favorite game has taken. (grrrrr!!)

I have much more to say... please reply, I would like to hear your input on this topic. Thanks guys!


[Edited 4 times, lastly by Eron the Relentless on July 11, 2000]

 
Orinn
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posted June 29, 2000 02:43 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Orinn Click Here to Email Orinn Send a private message to Orinn Click to send Orinn an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Combo decks are not going to go away. They've proven themselves under fire in major tournaments worldwide, and will continue to do so as long as there are new combos to explore. Deck designers will always break cards, regardless of how well the cards are designed and balanced. I wish we could return to the days of 5C Green, Turbo Stasis, and even Necro, but those archetypes are too slow in today's environment. The thing that puzzles me, though, is how, when decks "guarantee" a third or fourth turn kill, the Rebels are running in all major tourneys, and wiping the floor with everything. The Rebels have a good win percentage against everything, how can that be?
No deck wins all the time. I hope that WoTC will stop making open-ended loops so easy, but I like the fact that they exist. hopefully we will begin seeing tourney matches last 10 or more turns, but I wouldn't bet on it as long as combo decks prove viable in the environment.

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wayne
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posted June 29, 2000 08:26 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for wayne Click Here to Email wayne Send a private message to wayne Click to send wayne an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View wayne's Have/Want ListView wayne's Have/Want List
WoTC is trying to slow down the game and I don't really like that. I prefer speed decks as some tournies can really take a long time. I don't mind long games in casual play though...
 
Yawgmoth's Lackey
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posted June 29, 2000 05:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Yawgmoth's Lackey Click Here to Email Yawgmoth's Lackey Send a private message to Yawgmoth's Lackey Click to send Yawgmoth's Lackey an Instant MessageVisit Yawgmoth's Lackey's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Good Points Guys I guess we will just have to wait and see what the future holds for us all.

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Master
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posted June 29, 2000 05:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Master Click Here to Email Master Send a private message to Master Click to send Master an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
you newbies ( 95 and up) have it good, all your combo cards your foils, bah, back in my day, the best
combo decks that you would see were the enchantress/wombat decks and the channel fireball decks. none
of this newfangled necro crap. all we had was beat down and card drawing. thats it. no remove this, remove
that. it was beat or be beaten. why one of the best decks was the white weenie deck. and i can remember
when moat was 10 bucks.

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multani
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posted June 29, 2000 10:47 PM   Click to send multani an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I don't know about you guys but whenever I play a really long game and I win, It makes me feel good. And when I lose a long game I don't usually mind because I know it was a hardfought battle and besides, you can't win em all At leats I haven't figured out how yet...
 
bvery
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posted June 29, 2000 11:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for bvery Click Here to Email bvery Send a private message to bvery Click to send bvery an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Master, I'm with ya. I had a white/green Wombat deck that was crazy. So much fun to play. And how good was Web in that type of deck, not to mention Instill Energy? Ability, pump-edness, and only one mana to cast so when you draw your 4 cards (for the 4 Enchantresses you have out), you can do it all again! I've drawn 40+ cards in a turn many times, and had little Wombats upwards of 100 power or more, with every ability known to man on them!

I had a red/blue deck too. Terribly slow (4 Shivans, 4 Vesuvans, 4 Mahamotis, etc.), but if you get to turn 6 or 7, watch out below!

And the white weenie deck, loaded with cards from the Dark

 
Heavy 13
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posted June 30, 2000 09:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Heavy 13 Click Here to Email Heavy 13 Send a private message to Heavy 13 Click to send Heavy 13 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I totally agree that the old school days of Magic were much better. Sligh and burn decks all have the same cards and are boring.
Replenish and Bargain have made their point, but they've gotten old. Green Stompy is getting boring because they are all the same. And Lock decks are old and not fun..even if you are the one using it.
I like the new Avatars and Winds because they're great fun to play. I think that WotC should re-make the duals or some other old school cards...that would be the day!
 
Eron the Relentless
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posted July 05, 2000 06:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the input guys! Keep replying... I've just edited the page and have 2-3 new paragraphs!
 
KIP_NZ
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posted July 07, 2000 09:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for KIP_NZ Click Here to Email KIP_NZ Send a private message to KIP_NZ Click to send KIP_NZ an Instant MessageVisit KIP_NZ's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I agree with you older guy's at that the old deck styles were cool but there is some fun in saying I Soul feast you I soul feast you and so on.
I do wish we could go back to the old days so I could get back those mox's I traded for the force of Nature (Which I still Have)
Adrian
 
Eron the Relentless
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posted July 07, 2000 09:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
yeah... sucks to be you...

that must've been the most expensive force of nature in the history of magic!! lol
at least you still have it, though it'll never see play again...

 
KIP_NZ
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posted July 08, 2000 01:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for KIP_NZ Click Here to Email KIP_NZ Send a private message to KIP_NZ Click to send KIP_NZ an Instant MessageVisit KIP_NZ's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I still use it, it has seen better day though, I would rate it around the VG to G mark so if anyone wants to trade beat up Force for a Mox Jet and a Mox Ruby LMK
The reason I traded it was it was hard to kill people with Mana in those day's and a Force of Nature was an 8/8 with trample well it was just smokin' if you ask me
Adrian
 
Kevbob44
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posted July 10, 2000 11:15 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Kevbob44 Click Here to Email Kevbob44 Send a private message to Kevbob44 Click to send Kevbob44 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Yeah Eron, that Middle Age was the greatest. I hopped on during the end of the Old Days, so I grew up in the Middle Ages (er, yeah). Magic just seemed so much more fun with the emphasis on strategy and skill instead of an exact plan on how to play the cards. With Bargain or Replenish, you could show a Newbie the way it works and he could play it like a pro in hours. It has an rigid way of winning, no skill, strategy, or style. Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to program some cheap robot to play those decks instead of wasting the time yourself on something that is the same almost every time. Maybe the slowing down of the game with the soon-to-be new Type 2 will help, but read Christoph's article to see the problem there. It looks like it Magic may never be the same.

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Eron the Relentless
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posted July 11, 2000 09:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Just your regular neighborhood "UP" !!

UP

UP
 
Sentinel
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posted July 14, 2000 09:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sentinel Click Here to Email Sentinel Send a private message to Sentinel Click to send Sentinel an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
yeah, the good old days were great. but the new ages arent bad either. it isn't just about whos deck is faster, it is about how you play the cards. I've been beaten one to many times by burn decks and dispise them!!! It is the same old deck that basically will never change, but I have to deal with it. if you get beat by a cheap deck, it will only make you tougher. thats the way I look at it. there will always be burn decks, so build a deck that beats all burn decks. just like, stompy, counter, etc. I think magic is just intreeging as it ever has been. You just have to overcome the fact that some people have no imagination and cant build original decks. There is only so many decks out there, though. Its not what is in the deck, it is how you play it, just like its always been. Well, this is what I think anyway...

-Sentinel

 
Pncboy
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posted July 16, 2000 04:42 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pncboy Click Here to Email Pncboy Send a private message to Pncboy Click to send Pncboy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I have to agree with everything beng said. I am sooooooooooo sick of people who cant come up with their own ideas for deck design. Wheres the fun in a second turn kill? It involves no skill only have to have the right cards. I miss my long drawn out games with 4 people all trying to play their own deck while stopping everyone else I get tired of playing the race to see who gets a rector out first games...but anyway I am happy to see the slowing down of type 2, I think it will give people a chance to get back to the way Magic was supposed to be
 
Fooath
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posted July 16, 2000 05:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Fooath Click Here to Email Fooath Send a private message to Fooath Click to send Fooath an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Yeah, second turn kill is quite annoying. But when there is a prize up for grabs I sure as hell would rather use something tried and tested then my own deck that would get stomped. What would be the point? Paying the cash to get in only to lose because you used your own deck is just plain stupid! Now, as far as non-tournament play, well then there is no reason to use those decks. But winning isnt everything, it is the ONLY thing!
 
Eron the Relentless
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posted July 16, 2000 10:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
You're right... sadly. But that's what I now HATE about Magic. In order to even come close to winning a tournament, you have to give in to one of the quick, boring decktypes. Magic isn't supposed to be this way. I don't know how you can feel good about a win though when you're using:
a)a deck that thousands of others use
b)someone else came up with
c)took little or no skill, and works basicly the same way against any deck type.

Personally, I will no longer enter a local tourney unless it is sealed deck or draft. No other format is fair anymore... and if it is fair, it isn't fun...

Thanks to all of you. every time someone replies I think of more to add to my post!

 
Eron the Relentless
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posted July 31, 2000 10:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I lothe doing this under the Article forum, but I haven't gotten much input lately...

UP

... I feel ashamed...
 
phoenix
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posted August 01, 2000 08:36 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for phoenix Click Here to Email phoenix Send a private message to phoenix Click to send phoenix an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Unfortunatley most people I feel who say this are all talk. If so many people agreed on this there would have been some change by now. I started when revised was a new release and I have a heap of great cards that most people are passing over for the new fangled cards! I mean this syuff is good but it won't work in T1 or T2 there has to be a tourney in between. I think there would be a large response and people would enjoy knowing that they won because they made the right move not draw the right card. The only cards that are new and (in my personal opinion) great for each level of play is Cradle and Port. But once again I try to trade for these with great revised rares and people ask rediculous prices when back in the old days these cards would be worth 2 ports or 2 cradles esily. I really think ts a shame I hope to seee more mana cards and creatures in the neew set and all of the current sets rotated out PERMANETLY!
 
Magic1264
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posted August 02, 2000 06:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Magic1264 Click Here to Email Magic1264 Send a private message to Magic1264 Click to send Magic1264 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Boy, you guys seem very bored with magic. I face different and versitle decks all the time. I have never played something like necro, bargain, or replenish. All of the decks i have made are my own ideas. My most recent MBC deck is made to get out AVATAR OF WOE or AVATAR OF WILL 3rd or 4th turn. I think the best mana acceleration in MBC is the lands with depletion counters. I go greel or nexus 3rd turn and 4th turn i pull out avatar of will. if i am facing stompy or rebel. I bring out alexi, return all the creatures to their hands, then make them discard through greel. Snuffs, dazes, and foils help me to disrupt their creatures. And if need be, i tangle them to slow down the game. In type II, i play a similar decks except I use stuff to slow down the game buy land locking them. No bargain deck can survive that. Anyways, i think that the game is very interesting. And when you know that EVERYONE is playing the same deck, just counter it and see your self in the finals.

HASTA!!!!

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twicky_kid
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posted August 17, 2000 10:29 AM   Click to send twicky_kid an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
i'm with ya eron. i loved the old days when you could throw the worst crap in magic together and still win. all the new type decks are set in "tracks." almost every hand and every game are the same but hey you win. that's not what its about. i like the tournys around here cuz none of the ppl use the Web to look up decks. they make their decks with whatever they have and look for combos on their own.

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Eron the Relentless
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posted August 24, 2000 06:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eron the Relentless Click Here to Email Eron the Relentless Send a private message to Eron the Relentless Click to send Eron the Relentless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
thanks for the input everyone!
keep it coming, I love to hear what you have to say, long replies are welcome. in my humble opinion, this is one of the most controversial aspects of Magic... but most of the people who support the cowardly way of winning haven't shared any opinions, probably because they know that the true Magic player uses still and strategy to win the match.

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Birth, Fern, and Flower.-

 
Avatar of Magic
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posted August 25, 2000 11:48 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Magic Click Here to Email Avatar of Magic Send a private message to Avatar of Magic Click to send Avatar of Magic an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I think that you have a point when you talk about when decks now are now a matter of speed and not of the way you play the cards.

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phoenix
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posted August 27, 2000 05:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for phoenix Click Here to Email phoenix Send a private message to phoenix Click to send phoenix an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I posted before but then i skipped an important aspect of the game. The urza's saga im in complete agreement on what you said Eron. But MBC is different.....I think WotC tried to slow it down. NOw the first 3-4 turns in MBC are play a land......done

So anyway I got 3 ports and 3 squee!!!! just to brag bye for now!

 

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