I have been an MOTL member for a short while now, but I have been around the block a time or two here off the Internet. I seem to have a pretty good idea of how to sniff out rippers, since I have seen quite a few of the people I suspected to be rip-off's end up on the Bad Trader Alert (BTA). Due to the large number of new MOTL members that end up posting people on the BTA, I wanted to share some tips to get people thinking. Some of this stuff I have seen in other posts for new users, but it can always be said again and some of it comes from my own ideas. Here are some good tips for trying to tell if someone is trying to rip you off.

Disclaimer: These criterions are hardly foolproof, and honest traders may exhibit some of these characteristics. I can't take responsibility for anyone who uses my criterion and still gets ripped off; I just want to raise people's awareness.

1. It's said over and over and over, but it always rings true: if an offer seems way too good to be true, it usually is. People's valuation of cards differ from person to person, but a ripper almost always tries to get you with your own greed by offering way too much for a particular card, but you have to send first. Now, someone with 100 good refs could legitimately make an offer like this and demand that you send first, but someone with 5... (or simulsend because "they're nervous about sending a big card first", remember you should only simulsend with someone if you would trust them enough to send first, and they trust you as well)

2. An extension of rule number 1. Most rippers always have the card or cards you want. If you ask, "Do you have a Rishadan Port?" they will have one ready to trade. Decide you need two? They will magically have two all of a sudden.
An example of both of these I got from the BTA:
3 Undermines
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Urza's Rage
1 Orims chant
2 Rout
1 Eladamri's call
1 ertai the corrupted
1 Foil enlightened tutor
1 BB Vampiric tutor
2 pyre zombies
1 doomsday specter
1 obliterate
1 gaeas herald
For:
1 Beta Black LotusMINT!!!

I don't put this here to make fun of anybody, or make him or her feel bad about getting ripped-off, but I do want to illustrate my point. I would have a hard time believing that anyone would make this trade if they had a mint Beta Black Lotus.

3. When you're new, try to make trades with people with lots of good references until you get your own ref's built up. No one is going to risk a high ref rating to rip you off for $10 worth of cards. On the other hand, a lot of rippers do just enough good trades to get 10 or 15 refs then make a ton of quick trades with new users and have them send first, or simulsend with people with a similar amount of ref's. Next thing you know someone puts him or her on the BTA with a ton of "I got ripped off too" replies

4. Another thing to look at is some members go to great lengths to fake references. These include having lots of non-MOTL references from free-mail sites and creating new MOTL user profiles and having all of them give each other refs. Usually, but not always, these phantom users won't have any or very few posts and usually no refs from anyone except other phantom users (easily checked in profiles)
All of this talk on references brings me to my point: ALWAYS CHECK ON REFERENCES if you are considering a trade, and check their references' references to see if they are phony.
(Note: its hard to find anyone with at least semi-legitimate looking phony refs on MOTL, cause they get banned so fast cause people don't bother to check very closely and wind up sending to them) I know of one MOTL member who tried to create a bunch of phony ref's, but he wasn't very good at it, so no one would send anything to him. I won't post his name or post a link to his profile here, because everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but a highly respected anti-ripper moderator posted a reply in this guy's trade auction that said "your rules look like crap and your references don't look much better". You be the judge.

5. It's usually a good idea to use delivery confirmation for smaller trades and postal insurance for larger ones. It's more expensive, especially for younger traders without jobs, but not more so than trying to replace the cards lost to a ripper. At the very least if they rip you off, they won't be able to claim that they didn't get the cards and rip someone else off.

6. Always check the BTA when considering a trade. Sometimes you will find that other members have had problems with the trader you are dealing with. Maybe he or she just sent out too slow, sometimes he or she is a ripper trying to get as much as he or she can before he or she is banned.

7. In the same vein, always closely check the Confirmed Ripper's list. This means check for the same name, same address, etc. There are a lot of rippers that have been banned, but they either create a new MOTL name, or just get on and make email offers to new users hoping to take advantage of people with little experience.

8. If it is a big trade and the person seems to be honest, but you don't want to trust someone with so many valuable cards, use a third party service. Some MOTL moderators do third party trading for members at very reasonable rates. Some people use a particular Internet based third party trader (I won't say who), but they have been on the BTA frequently because it takes them 2-3 months to complete trades. They don't rip they're just slow. This is a good test to see if someone is a ripper, too. The guy with the phony ref list posted on my h/w a good offer to trade for a beat up spare Black Lotus I had. Since we had about the same amount of ref's at the time, he wanted me to simul. I proposed that we use a third party (I was suspicious) and I offered to pay, he said, "does the third party open the packages? (Flashing red light and sirens)". When I told them that they did, I mysteriously never heard from him again. Another ripper told me (for the same lotus) that moderators, who do third party trades, rip people off (more red lights and sirens). I personally have used one mod (who stopped doing third party trades for the time being ) and the results were great.

9. If your instincts say, "don't do it", then by all means don't. Sometimes your sub-conscious mind picks up on things that you might not consciously be aware of as being fishy, but are none-the-less. I know this sounds like superstitious mumbo-jumbo, but it's true.

10. Not related to ripping, but I want people to be aware of anyway: A new thing I just discovered (someone tried it on me) is that one MOTL member posted a ridiculous offer on my h/w and I politely responded with a no thanks email. He in turn sent me a message with an equally polite thanks anyway and almost immediately sent me a file with a badly disguised virus. The file name was "me_Nude.avi.pif" it was supposed to have the true extension disguised and look like "me_Nude.avi", but hotmail always shows it and their virus scanner discovered it. I thought that it was accidental so I sent him a message telling him that he might have a virus on his machine, since he sent me an infected file. The next day he sent me another virus called "sorry_about_yesterday.doc.pif" and a few hours later sent me a message that said "really? I'll have to check it out". Watch out for attachments from people you don't know and watch out for attachments you aren't expecting from people you do know.

11. If you are questioning a trader's honesty, bounce it off somebody else, a friend, a moderator or a friendly trader with a lot of successful trades. Have them look at the evidence and make a judgment. When I trade with someone who is new to MOTL, I usually offer to help in any way that I can, especially looking at proposed trades that they're suspicious of. I know of another trading board that you have to make your first trades under the watchful eye of a more experienced trader. This is a good idea for a number of reasons and this is a major one.

12. Always be polite and friendly even if you suspect that they have ulterior motives. I see all these posts that say, "Rippers, go away" and "I'll beat you up if you try to rip me", plus emails that make similar threats. Really, does anyone think that this stops rippers? It makes real rippers laugh and insults us honest traders. You will never convince a ripper to become honest, but you can convince an honest person to "not receive your uninsured cards in the mail".

13. A new one that I thought I had mentioned, but it justifies a new bullet point. I never accept pure email deals and usually just delete email offers. The same ripper who told me that moderators rip people off had a habit of lurking on MOTL and emailing offers to new members and telling them that he had 23 refs (which he did before he got banned for ripping people off) and all kinds of stories trying to get them to send him cards. I noticed that he ended up on the BTA several times when he was already on the Confirmed Bad Traders list.

14. This brings me to another important point. Rippers will always try to give you the hurry up. This is a common tactic for every kind of rip-off from magic cards to used cars. Honest people need cards in a hurry for tournaments and such too, but a ripper will always try to get you to act before you have time to think about it and wise up.

15. Here is a new one on me: I just read a BTA post against a confirmed ripper coming back under a new alias.

[quote]well lets simul send even though i have 7 refs. im planning on sending out this morning. what about you? also, you must send cards in one toploader(or 2) in a regular plain white envolope with no special features on it. for you see,me and my sister run seperate buisnesses out of our house.i run a magic shop, she runs a horse supply shop. any thing thats in a white plain envolope that has no special features, (which includeriority, certified, handle with care, next day shipping, or anything that has to be signed for), go to my mail room. any that has special features goes to my sisters huge locked mail room. ill never be able to find your cards again.so dont buy protection, certified, priority or anything else!NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!! send me back a response saying something.thanks
[\quote]

That's a convincing argument to get new users to not use any delivery confirmation. A later email to the same person threatens to put the trader on the BTA if he uses any special mail services!?! Of course the argument is totally bogus.

These tips were intended to get people thinking and give people ideas about what to look for. Here on MOTL, I believe that most people are honest and that there are very few rippers compared to the number of honest traders, but there will always be people trying to get something for nothing. People are innocent until proven guilty, but hardly beyond suspicion.

Feel free to post any comments, questions, additions or disagreements you might have in response to this article.

Great article though!

Hmm - maybe we could form a league of honest traders to try to make an anti-ripper alliance. say if somebody in the league gets ripped, we could help them press charges and spread the word about the ripper

quote:

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Originally posted by Avatar of Magic:
Hmm - maybe we could form a league of honest traders to try to make an anti-ripper alliance. say if somebody in the league gets ripped, we could help them press charges and spread the word about the ripper

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I think you just described MOTL.

Anyway, good article!

Two things. First off, you shouldn't say to not accept pure email deals. You have to treat them with more caution, yes, but to just decline every pure email offer isn't the best way to go about doing business.

Secondly, you say that a ripper will always have every card that you need. That's not true. One of the most frustrating cases I ever worked on in the BTA involved a guy that stuck purely to his posted list. The list itself was fake, but the fact that he actually stayed with it made things much more difficult. The stupid rippers will just randomly have cards, but the smart ones will make things seem so believable that you won't doubt them. That's why you always check refs and go to every extreme to protect your investment.

quote:

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Originally posted by iakae:
Two things. First off, you shouldn't say to not accept pure email deals. You have to treat them with more caution, yes, but to just decline every pure email offer isn't the best way to go about doing business.

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I really liked this article, itīs really good!

Although Iīd like to make a little correction in it if Iīm allowed.

ok QOUTE:
10. Not related to ripping, but I want people to be aware of anyway: A new thing I just discovered (someone tried it on me) is that one MOTL member posted a ridiculous offer on my h/w and I politely responded with a no thanks email. He in turn sent me a message with an equally polite thanks anyway and almost immediately sent me a file with a badly disguised virus. The file name was "me_Nude.avi.pif" it was supposed to have the true extension disguised and look like "me_Nude.avi", but hotmail always shows it and their virus scanner discovered it. I thought that it was accidental so I sent him a message telling him that he might have a virus on his machine, since he sent me an infected file. The next day he sent me another virus called "sorry_about_yesterday.doc.pif" and a few hours later sent me a message that said "really? I'll have to check it out". Watch out for attachments from people you don't know and watch out for attachments you aren't expecting from people you do know.

END QUOTE

I know a bit about this virus because Iīve had it myself. It sends itself to all users that the person emails and takes one of the following names:
README.TXT.pif
I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif
MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR
LOVE_LETTER_FOR_YOU.TXT.pif
NEW_playboy_Screen_saver.SCR
BILL_GATES_PIECE.JPG.pif
TIAZINHA.JPG.pif
FEITICEIRA_NUA.JPG.pif
Geocities_Free_sites.TXT.pif
NEW_NAPSTER_site.TXT.pif
METALLICA_SONG.MP3.pif
ANTI_CIH.EXE
INTERNET_SECURITY_FORUM.DOC.pif
ALANIS_Screen_Saver.SCR
READER_DIGEST_LETTER.TXT.pif
WIN_$100_NOW.DOC.pif
IS_LINUX_GOOD_ENOUGH!.TXT.pif
QI_TEST.EXE
AVP_Updates.EXE
SEICHO-NO-IE.EXE
YOU_are_FAT!.TXT.pif
FREE_xxx_sites.TXT.pif
I_am_sorry.DOC.pif
Me_nude.AVI.pif
Sorry_about_yesterday.DOC.pif
Protect_your_credit.HTML.pif
JIMI_HMNDRIX.MP3.pif
HANSON.SCR
****ING_WITH_DOGS.SCR
MATRiX_2_is_OUT.SCR
zipped_files.EXE
BLINK_182.MP3.pif

Itīs a real pain in the *** to get rid off
So I belive that in this case, the person wasnīt guilty of it, although the meaning of the anecdote (donīt accept attachments from people unless you know what it is) it well proven by this.

Thanks for the great article.
Keep up the good work!