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Author Topic:   Identifying Fake Reference Lists: A Practical Guide
Avatar of Might
Member
posted May 07, 2001 04:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
A "Reference" is someone who has traded with you and is willing to vouch that the trade was successful.
The reference list is the primary tool which MOTL members use to decide if to trade with someone and the sending order.
The Logic behind this is simple: the more references a person has (meaning the more people he has traded with) the more reliable that person should be. Thus most cases a person with more references than you will ask you to send 1st. if you have a similar amount of references most likely you will send same time.
However many rippers take advantage of the reference system and fake their reference lists, hoping to find a "newbie" (=New member") who's not experienced enough to see the difference between a fake list and a genuine one. Whether you are new to trading or not, the following tips will help you identify the fake reflists and stop the trade on time. The couple of minutes you spend reading this article will save you a lot of time and trouble in the future

Most of you first encounter the references in the Haves/Wants forum when posting an offer on someone's list or when someone posts an offer on your list. The 1st thing you notice is:

quote:

John Doe
Member
From: USA
Confirmed Refs: 16

At this stage the number "16" should mean absolutely nothing to you. Its there for your convenience, but at this point you shouldnt do anything based just on that info. with a little more effort you can determine if that number is real

ok so lets say you want to trade with him. he tells you something like "i have 16 references and you have none; you are going to have to send 1st"

The next thing to do, and you should always do it, is to view his actual reference list. you do that by clicking on the link where it says "Confirmed Refs: 16"
You now should be viewing his reference list. The 1st thing you should notice is something like this:

quote:
Confirmed: 16
Motl: 12
Denied: 0
Unconfirmed: 4

Confirmed: Again you cant base a decision according to that number alone. he may have 16 references but they may all be fake. The only exception may be if he has a HUGE amount of references for example over 100. such an amount is virtually impossible to fake and most traders who have that amount are honest, but still you should examine all the rest of the Data

MOTL Refs: Those are references which have been given by other MOTL members. Some people assume that they are harder to fake and count only those references, but its a misleading assumption since those references can be faked as easy as non-motl references. Since many people are not members of MOTL its possible that someone will have many non-MOTL refs. You have to examine it along with the rest of the data.

Denied: Those are either references which the MOTL Reference system decided that they are fake (usually coming from the same IP/Computer) or that were denied by the recepient for some reason. If a person has many denied refs it should bring on a red light. view the denied refs comments for the reason that they were denied

Unconfirmed: Those are references which were submitted but havent been confirmed. you should ignore that number, it doesnt mean anything for our purposes. he may have a 10 or 100 unconfirmed references- until they are confirmed they dont play a part in your decision.

Now comes the really important part: Checking the references themselves. Scroll down and you should encounter the reference list. Here is an Example of what it can look like:

quote:

John@hello.com John (1) 09/15/2000 Traded > $100
jake@hello.com jake (1) 09/15/2000 Traded > $100
skizzik@hello.com Skizzik12 (2) 09/15/2000 Sold > $100
jack887@yahoo.com mtgguy (1) 09/15/2000 Sold > $100
cardz887@att.net.com winter (3) 09/15/2000 Sold > $100
magicgather887@pacbell.net Kavu (4) 09/15/2000 Sold > $100


Go over the list closely... Do you see anything suspicious?

The Column on the left is the email addresses of the references.
well 1st look again at the first 3 email addresses:
John@hello.com
jake@hello.com
skizzik@hello.com

As you can see they all come from the same server- "hello.com" which for this article lets say its a free email service like yahoo or hotmail. if you spot too many references coming from the same email service, especially if its not a popular one like yahoo hotmail or aol, it should raise some suspicions, Since free email addresses are easier to create.

Look at the next 3 email addresses
jack887@yahoo.com
cardz887@att.net.com
magicgather887@pacbell.net

All contain the numbers "887" and in most cases this shouldnt be considered a coincidence. A similarity in the Email addresses may point to the fact that its the same person. The number may be something that the ripper uses in all his aliases like his birthday or something. if you see too many similar addresses you should understand that there is something wrong here.

Now to the middle column which states the MOTL username of the reference and # of references (only if it belongs to an MOTL member).
Go over the MOTL usernames, clicking on them to open their profiles. search for similar data, such as same locations, same interests or same AIM handles. too much similarity may indicate a fake reference list. For example if all of the Profiles have "Ohio" in their locations, you should be cautious. Also if too many of the profiles have a red "Banned" in them, it may be a previous MOTL user who was banned and now re-registered under a different username and is giving references to himself.

The number between the brackets i.e. (2) show the number of references that member has. Start going over the numbers and clicking on them to open the reference list of each of the references. if all lists are similar (meaning there is a chain here of several members all being references to themselves) that list is probably a fake.

Even if you determined that the list is real, you should now Email those references to see what they have to say. Them most convenient way is by clicking on an option in the reflist which says Send e-mail to 10 randomly selected, confirmed references.
Read the replies. while it may delay the trade it will help you verify if the references are real. If you get very few/none replies it may indicate that the email addersses are just temporarily addresses which were created only for the fake reference list.
Most people dont bother to actually email the references and thats why most of the times the creator of the fake email addresses will not monitor his alternate email addresses hoping you will be satisfied only by the looks and size of his reference list.

While all this may seem a little complicated, once you get the hang of it it will take you a couple of minutes even seconds to determine if a list is fake or not. If you suspect a fake reference list or feel something is wrong, dont do the trade. go with your instincts and common sense.

If you have any comments or questions feel free to post them here.

Hope this helped,
Good luck and safe trading


__________________
Are you a good trader? take the Good Trader Test to find out!
Is there more to Magic than meets the eye? read Magic: The Conspiracy

 
kingkyle3
Member
posted May 07, 2001 04:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for kingkyle3 Send a private message to kingkyle3 Click to send kingkyle3 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Nice article Avatar. ANotehr one of your good pieces.

-DA king

 
NukeMoose
Member
posted May 07, 2001 04:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for NukeMoose Click Here to Email NukeMoose Send a private message to NukeMoose Click to send NukeMoose an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View NukeMoose's Trade Auction or SaleView NukeMoose's Trade Auction or Sale
Don't ask me why but I enjoy reading stuff I already know, so thanks for 3 minutes of something to do. On a more important note, this may help newer members out alot. Thanks!

__________________
Posting this is just as pointless as me saying something! ~ NukeMoose, self proclaimed site idiot.

 
VizerX
Unregistered
posted May 07, 2001 04:22 PM   Click to send VizerX an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thx for the advice, having never traded b4 this is very helpful.

__________________
Senge@home.com

 
banzibanzibanzi
Member
posted May 08, 2001 11:12 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for banzibanzibanzi Click to send banzibanzibanzi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
You could also look at the date each of the refrences were acquired. if they are VERY close together, they could be fake.
Also, you could download them into MS outlook express, or another email program, and then read the message source (if they are all from the same domain name, eg. hotmail.com), and check the ip address. if they are all the same, or if the first 3 sets of numbers are the same, id wsay it isnr a coincedence.
 
coolio
Member
posted May 08, 2001 01:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
so.. does.
quote:

coolio
Moderator
From: NY, USA
Confirmed Refs: 157


and

quote:

Confirmed: 157
MOTL Refs: 151
Denied: 0
Unconfirmed: 0

mean I'm a good trader?

©


__________________
Anyone else find it ironic that with the advancement of medicine nowadays, we are actually prolonging the ultimate disease: LIFE?
References
Email: coolio@magictraders.com or cicero6969@hotmail.com
REPORT RULE VIOLATIONS!



[Edited 2 times, lastly by coolio on May 08, 2001]

 
Avatar of Might
Member
posted May 08, 2001 03:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Avatar of Might:
The only exception may be if he has a HUGE amount of references for example over 100. such an amount is virtually impossible to fake and most traders who have that amount are honest, but still you should examine all the rest of the Data


Yep, read the above quote

__________________
Are you a good trader? take the Good Trader Test to find out!
Is there more to Magic than meets the eye? read Magic: The Conspiracy

 
banzibanzibanzi
Member
posted May 08, 2001 03:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for banzibanzibanzi Click to send banzibanzibanzi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by coolio:

mean I'm a good trader?


you are

 
Trotters Traders
Member
posted May 08, 2001 03:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trotters Traders Click Here to Email Trotters Traders Click to send Trotters Traders an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Yeh but what happens if a good trader turns bad?

__________________
Come see my FOIL trade auction, highlighting FOIL undermine and FOIL doomsday specter, limited time only
http://classic.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/011664.html

Come look


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Trotters Traders on May 08, 2001]

 
Avatar of Might
Member
posted May 08, 2001 03:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trotters Traders:
Yeh but what happens if a good trader turns bad?


*Sigh* Well if a good trader decides to turn bad theres nothing you can do about it... unless you are a prophet or have the ability to see the future

Anyway this guide will help you in all cases where the ripping can be avoided

__________________
Are you a good trader? take the Good Trader Test to find out!
Is there more to Magic than meets the eye? read Magic: The Conspiracy

 
BoltBait
Moderator
posted May 08, 2001 05:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for BoltBait Click Here to Email BoltBait Send a private message to BoltBait Click to send BoltBait an Instant MessageVisit BoltBait's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by coolio:
so.. does.
{snip}
and
{snip}
mean I'm a good trader?

Show off!

__________________
You can e-mail me at BoltBait@hotmail.com but please include this entire post. Thanks.
I have the best looking H/W List at MOTL!
Help Cure Cancer!

daddyj
Member
posted May 09, 2001 11:37 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for daddyj Click Here to Email daddyj Send a private message to daddyj Click to send daddyj an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Great Article! Another piece of information that is desperatly needed by newbies. I would also recommend checking the reflists of the refs. A lot of times rippers will create phony refs by motl accounts that they have created just to give them a ref. Beware the motl'er who has 15 refs and 0 posts. Another case still on the BTA has a ripper that made an MOTL account and managed to fake a whole bunch of motl refs by creating a whole circle of "phantom traders" who all show up on each other's ref lists, making all the ref lists look legitimate by themselves, but if you start following one reflist to the next, it becomes apparant that they are phony.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by daddyj on May 09, 2001]
 
Avatar of Might
Member
posted May 09, 2001 11:47 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Yep, it says all that in the article
 
coolio
Member
posted May 09, 2001 05:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coolio Click Here to Email coolio Send a private message to coolio Click to send coolio an Instant MessageVisit coolio's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daddyj:
Great Article! Another piece of information that is desperatly needed by newbies. I would also recommend checking the reflists of the refs. A lot of times rippers will create phony refs by motl accounts that they have created just to give them a ref. Beware the motl'er who has 15 refs and 0 posts. Another case still on the BTA has a ripper that made an MOTL account and managed to fake a whole bunch of motl refs by creating a whole circle of "phantom traders" who all show up on each other's ref lists, making all the ref lists look legitimate by themselves, but if you start following one reflist to the next, it becomes apparant that they are phony.

ya know.. I believe u can go in a complete circle with my reflist.. in many different options all the time

©

__________________
Anyone else find it ironic that with the advancement of medicine nowadays, we are actually prolonging the ultimate disease: LIFE?
References
Email: coolio@magictraders.com or cicero6969@hotmail.com
REPORT RULE VIOLATIONS!

 
daddyj
Member
posted May 09, 2001 07:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for daddyj Click Here to Email daddyj Send a private message to daddyj Click to send daddyj an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I take that as an admission of guilt

Anyway, I was refering to a circle of "phantoms" with no posts, no refs outside the circle and no h/w lists.

__________________
Never trust anyone, not even yourself.
-Cobra Commander

 
Avatar of Might
Member
posted May 09, 2001 07:55 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
oh and needless to say (i hope ) when you encounter a fake list report it to support@magictraders.com so that he can be stopped on time

__________________
Are you a good trader? take the Good Trader Test to find out!
Is there more to Magic than meets the eye? read Magic: The Conspiracy

 
keith33tpt
Member
posted May 10, 2001 06:05 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for keith33tpt Click Here to Email keith33tpt Send a private message to keith33tpt Click to send keith33tpt an Instant MessageVisit keith33tpt's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I would just say that I don't take the time to respond to many of those requests about how good a trader is or how a trade went, I just don't remember. I say if you can't tell by their list, then don't trade with them.
 
vodstrup
Member
posted May 10, 2001 07:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for vodstrup Click Here to Email vodstrup Send a private message to vodstrup Click to send vodstrup an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Hello Avarter of Might!

Thank you for posting this article, it have just saving me from being ripped!!
I was reading it, and I felt to check his refs, and they was all fake.
Yet again THANKS!!!!!

Great article!!!!!!!

 
Avatar of Might
Member
posted May 18, 2001 11:46 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I would like to stress again the importance of examining the email addresses of the references themselves and not to make a trade based on the number of references alone...

Also something else i've stumbled into:
When a ripper creates a fake reference list he would naturally give himself "5"s which is the highest grade possible...
But i've seen rippers who think that they can outsmart us by giving themselves "3" , in the purpose that we would think "if its a fake reference list, why would he give himself a 3"... so dont fall into any traps, always use the guidelines presented in this article

if you have any questions post or email me

__________________
-We had creative differences: i was creative and he was different

 
MisterShark
Member
posted June 02, 2001 09:30 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MisterShark Click Here to Email MisterShark Send a private message to MisterShark Click to send MisterShark an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
The problem with this system is that unlike Ebay or Yahoo Auctions, all the trading refs are left up to the trader and not manditory. A guy could have done 20 bad trades and 5 good ones, and all you'll ever see on his list are the good ones. This does not indicate the person's true nature. On the auction sites all transactions are registered with the site and open to criticism(negative feedback) or praise(positive feedback)following the conclusion of the transaction. This way everyone has to toe the line or his dirty laundry will be publically posted for all to see, and you get a real picture of what the person is like.
If all transactions on MOTL were eligible to be registered and thereby open to publically posted feedback, then everyone would have to be a lot more honest. I would insist on registering the trade because I would then know that that person would be a lot more likely to trade honestly and punctually, fro fear of a bad mark on their records, which would be unconditionally publicly visible.
The other route to go is a trading intermediary company like SafeCards.com. You(MOTL) could perhaps even work out a deal with them for some cash to add a link or banner add to their site. Who knows, they might even be willing to work out a deal for all MOTL members such as, 'the first trade is free', just to warmly welcome all the new business.
I hope that these suggestions help or at least provoke some thought on the system that is currently in place.
 
Avatar of Might
Member
posted June 02, 2001 11:30 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Avatar of Might Click Here to Email Avatar of Might Send a private message to Avatar of Might Click to send Avatar of Might an Instant MessageVisit Avatar of Might's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MisterShark:
A guy could have done 20 bad trades and 5 good ones, and all you'll ever see on his list are the good ones.

Thats what the Bad Traders forum is for, to expose bad trading habits in public... if a person persists with bad trading habit he will most likely be banned

As for the 3rd party services: the whole point of the reference system is to allow people to trust each other.... you might get ripped every little once in a while, but if you cant trade directly then whats the point of references?

__________________
-We had creative differences: i was creative and he was different

 
MisterShark
Member
posted June 04, 2001 07:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MisterShark Click Here to Email MisterShark Send a private message to MisterShark Click to send MisterShark an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Unfortunately, I am probably the victim of two rippers at this time. I have reported the first incident on the Bad Traders Alert section, and am going to wait on the registered mail delivery confirmation notice to return to me before I pursue the other suspect.
Trust is all well and good, but I'm out between 80-90$ worth of cards at this point. I hope you guys can help me, and if you advise it, I will pursue the issues legally. Call me jaded, but I would rather do my trade confidently through a safe intermediary and KNOW that my stuff is on the way. The extra buck or two that it costs could have saved me the 80-90$. You can call me jaded, but you can keep the trust thing. I want to believe in the basic goodness in people as much as the next guy, but look at where it got me.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by MisterShark on June 07, 2001]
 
shyro-the-red
Member
posted May 26, 2002 10:38 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for shyro-the-red Click Here to Email shyro-the-red Send a private message to shyro-the-red Click to send shyro-the-red an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Thank you for taking the time to advise the less informed. I do truly appreciate your advice.
 

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