End Objectivity

I will never forget what happened yesterday. It was around 9:05 ET and I was sitting in my American History class, talking about the importance of tobacco in early America, when the teacher next door pops in and says "Turn on channel 32 (CNN), two planes crashed into the Twin Towers." My life has been changed since. She turned on the TV and there it was, the most shocking thing I've ever seen on TV (yes, more shocking than Jerry Springer). It had really happened. It wasn't a dream. I poked myself and it still wasn't a dream. Through the rest of the day I caught as much of it as I could, telling whoever possible. I am agnostic, but the only thing I could think to myself was, "My God," and I knew America, let alone New York, would never be the same. Thousands on thousands of people died or died trying to save others (at least they were fulfilled), for no reason. None. I ask Osama what the hell I, or every other commmon American citizen, did to him? He doesn't answer (and even if he did, I wouldn't understand him), but I know that his day will come, and soon.

Now, in light of this tragedy, I ask you all a favor. The next time your opponent taps his mana wring, let him fix it. If someone forgets to do something at the end of your turn, let him. And even you Tedman, I read your article, and as wrong as it might be, insted of remembering the hundreds of cards you lost, remember the thousands of lives that are lost. Magic is a small game in a large world in a large galaxy, and whatever might have happened to you, it is insignificant to the troubles of the world. I give my condolences to the thousands of people who have lost family or friends in these events, and I wish that those who died have lived full, happy lives. May we all return to happiness once again.

Please feel free to email me at Compute102@AOL.com.

You suggest we should let our opponents get away with errors more easily because of what occurred? Please explain to me, HOW are my MtG games related to the crashes? If I'm in a tourney and my opponent constantly makes mistakes, I will NOT let him get away with it. Bad players need to learn how to play and if it's through the hard way, fine. I'm getting annoyed by people thinking these "moments of silence" do any good to anyone. What's the point in them?

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Originally posted by Trnothr:
I'm getting annoyed by people thinking these "moments of silence" do any good to anyone. What's the point in them?

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All you can do is whine and complain that this tragic event doesn't affect you, and that it annoys when people ask you to be more forgiving to others around you. You make me sick with your petty, self-centered attitude. People have died, others have lost their loved-ones, and all you can do is rip on people for expressing their condolances!

DON'T FLAME ME FOR MY OPINIONS. I'M JUST AS SICKENED BY YOUR ATTITUDES AS YOU ARE FROM MINE. IF YOU DISAGREE, GIVE ME PROPER ARGUMENTS INSTEAD OF THIS FLAMING I HAVE TO TOLERATE EVERY TIME I TRY TO MAKE MY POINT. I AM GENUINELY INTERESTED WHY I SHOULD MOURN OR KEEP MOMENTS OF SILENCE, AND EVERYONE FAILS TO EXPLAIN IT.

The moment of silence is actually used for reflection upon the event and what it means. Not only is it to allow us to honor those that have fallen in our own way, in a sense it is to have us focus upon our own mortality. The people who died were someone's friends and family, and countless lives have been changed by the horrific events. The moment of silence means something different to everyone, and the only thing that is meant to be universal about it is to focus minds upon the event in a mourning mindset.

While you are clearly allowed to express your own opinions, take a step back for a moment and understand that these events are, for the most part, currently unrelated to you. About 90 miles away from me, 10,000 people have died. I have always thought of Manhattan as a personal haven because of the old-fashionedness and continuity that I can always find there. New York can easily be considered the center of culture in America. Now, everything about that city has been violated. No business are running in a good tenth of the city, bridges are closed, people are devasted, and one of America's largest symbols of prosperity has been destroyed. My father was working in the city when it happened, far away thankfully. My brother hasn't been able to sleep, crying and coping with friends. From Washington to Florida, the people of the United States has lost that false sense of security that has kept this country the way it has been. This is the worst event that has happened to the current generation, much like World War II was 60 years ago.

I don't expect this to effect you. I don't even expect that you've visited the United States. So please, try and understand that our whole nation is downtrodden or dead, and that is a scary sight for obese, happy, carefree Americans like us. I believe Iakae explained the moment of silence well. If you find the moment of silence to be pointless, than I expect that you are also disconnected from much of society. Perhaps the moment of silence isn't popular in Finland, but it has a lot of meaning here in the US. I would like to know, do you hate Americans? If you don't want to get flamed by dozens of people, please email me @ Compute102@AOL.com. I hope that you can see that I'm a bit more level-headed than some of these people.

And I'm not saying that Magic is related to these hijackings, I'm merely saying that, in light of what's happened, I've realized that these things really don't matter, I suggest that other people should consider my opinion. Clearly you disagree. But, if, say, someone set your house on fire and you lost everything you owned, suddenly, that time someone accidentaly saw the bottom card of their deck seems somewhat less important.

And what comes to staying out of this subject, don't you find that a bit contradictary that first a very big deal is made out of what happened and to say that it affects everyone on Earth, and then later tell to stay out of subject? Not to mention that if I wanted to stay out of subject, I'd have to sit in a small barrel in the middle of Sahara in order to not see a topic about it no matter where ever I look or hear a conversation about it, no matter where I am? It's impossible to stay out, and I think you know that too.

EDIT: Yeah, I wonder where I saw that "horrible"... must have been a slight temporal distortion in time and space continuum.

2nd EDIT: Moment of silence isn't uncommon here. Finland's society is just about as western as yours; you should have seen the amount of anger that was directed towards me when I refused to hold the moment of silence with everyone else during our philosophy class. It was annoying how everyone basically kept saying I was wrong without saying WHY I was wrong... well, without anything I couldn't had pushed down immediately after.

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Originally posted by iakae:
If you truly don't get why what's happened is so important and why everyone needs to take a step back and begin the mourning process, Trnothr, then you should just shut the hell up and stay away from the subject.

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Anyways, I'm sure there are answers that I find acceptable... but when the only ones I seem to get are "You bastard" and "I hope you'll burn in hell" (I'm not exaggerating here), it's hard to be satisfied. Iguanaonastick made the best reply so far. I also hope to find people who feel the same way I do, but are just too scared to say their opinion aloud because of people like Laton and Ground who will not accept anyone different but will instead happily hurl insults... this is one reason I am always ready to stand up for my opinion, because eventually someone else will, too.

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Originally posted by Trnothr:
So, a troll-person who can't even spell properly goes on calling ME 10 year old? And another hypocrat tells me to shut up

[/B]

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ROOFLES

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TaBlah... I wouldn't be laughing if I were you. Reasons you can find from my previous post.

You have a right to voice your opinion, yes. A true sign of maturity, though, is knowing WHEN to voice it. In this case, saying that a moment of silence isn't worth observing is truly a disgusting thing to suggest. Just because you aren't affected by one of the most heinous acts of our generation doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't. We're not here to try to explain to you why we feel the way we do. Know what? I'm willing to bet that Iguanaonastick doesn't give a crap that you think his post was "best". Your attitude on the posts discussing Tuesday's events is offending a lot of people in a time when we just don't need your crap.

Your original response to Iguana's post is(IMO) a slap in the face of every person affected by this tragedy. If you think that this event doesn't affect you, you are a very naive person. This affects everyone in the world, since I can see these events playing out as another world at war. My disgust with your post comes from the fact that you cannot show a little respect for those who have died, or have lost loved ones. Instead, you are more concerned with how to play in a Magic tourney!

And while I'm responding here, I guess I'll respond to some of your comments here:

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what's the big deal about death? I can understand that people don't like pain, but what's so bad about death? I've lost some relatives, but I don't feel bad about it.

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I just want people to see that it doens't matter how many people died, they can't be brought back to life. Why not worry about something else? Why not spend those moments of silence in something constructive, like doing some extra minutes of work to raise money for reparations? It would be much more useful than just standing still quietly.

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I am saddened by the fact that you hold such low regard for life, especially if death and destruction happen to others in the world. I'm wondering how you would feel if your homeland was viciously attacked without provocation, and there was a large loss of life. I wonder how you would feel if a group of people declared war on your way of life. I'm wondering how you would feel if your friends and neighbors were suddenly killed by a similar event such as the WTC attack. It's very easy to say that you wouldn't be affected, and that death is no big deal, but it just shows how foolish you are. Everyone would be devastated by these events, and if for some reason, you really aren't affected, then you are truly a sick individual.

So show some respect and pray that the world gets through this crisis without anymore loss of life!!

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Originally posted by iakae:
Have your opinion, but keep your mouth shut about it. The majority of us are going through a stage of shock and mourning, and all you're doing is belittling us with your constant "Why should I care?" bullcrap. At least show us the respect we deserve in our time of grief by shutting the hell up.

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First of all, I would like to explain to you the big deal about death:

1) The people we love and care about are pretty much the only security we truly have, besides ourselves. When people lose this sense of security, it is truly devastating. Clearly this has never been an issue for you.

2) The death of others reminds us of our own mortality. Humans are the only species who know that they are born to die. Reminders of this are not welcome.

3) Others provide companionship, something most people need in order to cope with every day life. This loss would, by definiton, make life harder to live.

4) Death brings about change. I'm sure you know that many people are not always receptive to change, especially in a bad way.

Some other questions:

Were your relatives sitting around, wathing the stars, when all of a sudden a plane crashed into them?

Did you really care about them?

Or were they some aunts you barely knew who died at 65 in their chairs?

Have you ever felt bad about anything?

Lets assume that for every person who died, 10 people cared about them. That's at least 100,000 people who have lost someone they cared about. I can't even fathom that number. You probably haven't even seen that many people. You don't even own that many magic cards. Including land.

I think that 30 seconds is a fair enough amount of time to honor the 10,000 people who died and to consol the 100,000 people who have been hurt. If your family died (and I mean the whole thing), would you be happy if nobody noticed or even cared? I wouldn't, and I don't think many other people would, either.

I never told you to stay out of the subject. If that's what you think I meant by 'step back and think', here, that's an expression for 'stop, take a deep breath and look things over for a second'. I know, I shouldn't have expected you to know that.

If you come up with any other points, let me know. Ignore the naysayers, their just in a hissy fit.

You don't think that what happened doesn't affect everyone either directly or indirectly? I laugh at that. Firstly, these people didn't die of natural causes. There was someone with an idea and he got to make some people believe in this idea and that idea was taken to careful planning and when all was ready, that idea, that formulated into a plan, was strategized and made into action. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Those that died were murdered. Someone doesn't like the US for all it stands for so this person wants to hurt us. This can be along the lines of someone pinging us away and watching our life total points go down. Like sending out a Wrath of God (even though the caster is NOT worthy of such a thing) and so life is made difficult by someone doing bad to us. So much stuff gets delivered thanks to planes... wouldn't it make you mad that you'd be waiting for a bunch of cards you traded to not show up for a while since since all flights had to be stopped? I know it makes me mad. Now, how could you have no emotion for relatives that died? This has got to mean that you either do not value live or that you weren't close to your relatives. I'm sure that when you die, you'd like to be remembered and perhaps missed a little... right?

Opinions are and can be rightfully expressed, but you also have to stay within means of respect. Would you want someone to rip you because of what you're saying on threads? I don't think so.

Oh, and just as a quick reminder. Posting stuff all in caps is very rude. It is like yelling and I don't think anyone here wants to be yelled at. Oh, also I think it may go against posting rules too...

Nevertheless, I see the kid's point. Magic is like war. You win some you lose some. Hijackers are instants that make the game (of Life) interesting and complex. It is a thinker's game either way.

Iakae, I'm not only asking "Why should I care?", I'm also asking why should YOU (plural here) care. Maybe, just maybe someone else also realises that this event is so big only because 1) It hit USA, which is a slap on their face and they have power to act majorly from it 2) Media made a big fuss about this. It's a huge act of terrorism, but compared to the continuous stuff violating human rights that has been going on for all the time (not to mention the persecution of the jews during WW2) and other acts of terrorism like that, it's not all that big anymore, is it? And if Iguana doesn't care about my opinion, let him say it himself.

Laton, so I have to specifically say that I want an argument before the actual thinking process begins and mature comments start rolling in? I find that pretty sad. And what do you mean if my relatives feel the same way I do? You mean the do my living relatives care about me? I think you know what I would say... And that comment about constructive help was "If I would care"-theory, meaning that even if one would care, why spend time on moments of silence instead of something clearly and directly helpful? I never meant to give contradicting impression. My disrespect for life isn't related to WHO was bombed. Of course I would feel the repercussions more if someone would bomb our country, because even now economy all around the world is wobbly, but that's it. Nationality has nothing to do with this.

Iguana, my dad was happily fishing from a boat when he fell into the icy water and drowned. I don't feel bad about it... I think that should answer your first question. Yes, I've felt bad about lots of things, but there are lots of certain things that make you numb and kill your pity. I know how much 100000 is. I know I don't have that many cards, including land; I know how to count and I don't like exaggerating. That "stay out of the subject" wasn't meant for you, it was for iakae. If my whole family would die, I'd be happy. Yes, happy. I wouldn't care if people wouldn't care about it. I hate the way I have to bring out my father's death every time just because someone asks "WHAT IF YOUR RELATIVES DIE, HUH???" and I have to tell them that I know what's happening; I'd rather let the whole thing unmentioned. I don't like begging for pity. Why is it that I constantly need to rely on dead relatives to justify my opinions? As to your PS. part, I do stand behind my opinions, but I also enjoy the argument. Lately I've been getting the feeling that most people don't... and rather tell me to shut up instead.

Val, how many times I have to say this? I KNOW THIS AFFECTS ME!! I don't know what's so hard to believe about that I just didn't care for my relatives. Like said earlier, my dad drowned, and my dad's parents died few years later. I was close to them and I somewhat cared for them, but in my grandma's funeral I was more concerned about whether or not my mom would let me play computer games afterwards. I don't think anyone would really miss me if I died, and that's one source where I draw strength from. I KNOW POSTING IN ALL CAPS CAN BE VERY RUDE! I KNOW IT'S YELLING! But most of the time it seems like people ignore what you say if you don't do some extra advertising for them to really notice. And I didn't have my post all in caps, just the notification.

Laton, again: I don't think the hijackers were really any more evil than you, for example. That's one thing I never, EVER want to see: people calling others evil. What's good and what's evil is so hard to determine, that it becomes nothing but pointing fingers if you use either of those words. They died for something they believed in, didn't they? I doubt they were paid well. So far this sounds very heroic (unless they jumped off the plane with parachutes and lived, in which case I'm direly mistaken). Would you have courage to sacrifice your life for "greater good"?

Whew, lots of text and I finally said it all. I'm leaving this thread now, and find it depressing that so far no one thinks like I do.

PS. Shut up shut up all of you you think differently than me you are idiots can't you see how horrible you are shut up stop posting!

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Originally posted by Trnothr:

Iakae, I'm not only asking "Why should I care?", I'm also asking why should YOU (plural here) care. Maybe, just maybe someone else also realises that this event is so big only because 1) It hit USA, which is a slap on their face and they have power to act majorly from it 2) Media made a big fuss about this. It's a huge act of terrorism, but compared to the continuous stuff violating human rights that has been going on for all the time (not to mention the persecution of the jews during WW2) and other acts of terrorism like that, it's not all that big anymore, is it? And if Iguana doesn't care about my opinion, let him say it himself.

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Actually, because I actually give a crap about life, I believe all those events you listed are horrible and feel for all those involved. The fact that this particular event hits so close to home AND has a very personal backlash makes this all the more difficult. So without knowing me or my attitude towards life (you've made your outlook quite clear), your statement is just grasping at straws.

Why should I care? Because these are my fellow members of humanity being affected here. I'm so sorry that I actually believe in society and hope for the best for it (note the sarcasm).

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Originally posted by Trnothr:
PS. Shut up shut up all of you you think differently than me you are idiots can't you see how horrible you are shut up stop posting!

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Very....mature???
Yes, I can see how horrible we all are now. Treating human life as something that's priceless and should be treated accordingly is just wrong and horrible. (Refer to the end of iakae's last post)

Edit: Removed ASCII swearing.

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Originally posted by Trnothr:
PS. Shut up shut up all of you you think differently than me you are idiots can't you see how horrible you are shut up stop posting!

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I only have one more word to say on this subject:

Hypocrite!

'Nuff said.