quote:

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Originally posted by AlmasterGM:
Hmmm...I guess I'm wondering if that's actually belligerence or if it's just me in general. This "AGM smoke bomb" issue has been a problem for almost a year now. A while back, it was "AGM is a tricksy lie machine, he won't con us this time." Now it's "AGM is belligerent." Honestly, I don't TRY to be annoying - people just seem to draw that conclusion. I guess I'll have to try really hard to be more reserved.

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I can't say. Have you ever seen Fahrenheit 9/11? The brief montage wherein Moore shows Bush using catch words to elicit emotional responses in people? "Terrorist," "Smoke'em out," "WMD," etc. etc. The influence that you have on people in this game seems similar to that in my mind. For instance, I don't think anyone else in this game can even come close to you in terms of how often you said "this person" or "that action" is scummy, and aside from an occasional peek in Bernek's direction, you were never once correct.

I suppose the big difference between yourself and others is that you make bold declarative statements where others might cautiously postulate. You throw around game terms left and right (i.e., IIoA, WIFOM,AtE, etc.), which would make me (and others) believe that you know your ****, except you are so consistently and unfailingly off base it's not even funny.

You're obviously not an idiot, but your playstyle assumes that everyone is guilty until proven innocent (except for Nder, who is obviously pro-town :P). This is impossible, as there are way more Citizens than Mafia. Especially in the early rounds, we as Cits can afford to make Policy lynches and give the Mafia enough rope to hang themselves, instead starting witch-hunts over the slightest scent of OOC *cough cough cop-slaying cough cough* or some other flimsy tell/no-tell. There is no reason to start questing for blood from the very outset of the game.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zakman86:
I'm AMAZED that I got MVP, as I only lasted a couple of rounds.

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Heck, how do you think I feel, when the other Mafia did all the work, and I jumped in at the last minute and just rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic.

__________________
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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Heck, how do you think I feel, when the other Mafia did all the work, and I jumped in at the last minute and just rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zakman86:
Yeah, my idea during round 2 was stupid... c'est l'vie. I'm AMAZED that I got MVP, as I only lasted a couple of rounds.

I guess I did pretty well for my first game

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zakman86:
Yeah, my idea during round 2 was stupid... c'est l'vie. I'm AMAZED that I got MVP, as I only lasted a couple of rounds.

I guess I did pretty well for my first game

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I think you are an exceptional player, and I hope you will play with us again, and again, and again.

I really don't want to argue with you, and I fully respect yours or anyone's opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, you played one of the worst games as a cit I've ever seen. It was truly appalling--you come on with powerful conviction that you have no basis for, and it draws attention. You can continue to argue (and doubtless will continue to argue) that it generates conversation--this is true--but when you are wrong (which is as often as anyone else) it also distracts the cits and creates opportunities for the mafia.

There's nothing wrong with moderating your tone. As it is you seem to have two levels of suspicion, (1) None, and (2) OMG SCUM!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong at all with noting something slightly suspicious to yourself and then not mentioning it for awhile to see where it goes--you do NOT have to blurt it out **right now** and alert the mafia to something they can exploit. Given how often we are wrong in this game (all of us) this shouldn't be rocket science. This isn't about stifling conversation, it's about not setting the town up to lose.

Bernek made a number of serious flubs in the first and second round. I voted for him, MasterWolf voted for him. MM also made a rather serious flub (IMO) R1 which I also pointed out. And not long after that MasterWolf and I were both confirmed as cits, and WCFmo suddenly self-destructed. What you *should* have done, and in fact what I told you to do before I died, was go back over my suspicions once you knew I was being honest and reassess them. You did not. In fact every single round of this game, you picked a cit, and gunned for them. You were brusque, picked fights, and basically argued with people.

NOTHING useful came out of, for example, you arguing with OGB. All it did was give the mafia room to maneuver while you and your pick of the day duked it out--dominating the thread. This is *NOT* scumhunting. We have a number of very good players here, and ANYTHING you decide to tell them in game they are going to attempt to use to their advantage. You GAVE nderdog a scenario in which the population had to pick between two cits and he played it beautifully, presenting it to the crowd as "these are our options".

The zombie club just about tore its hair out when OGB tossed out the idea that it was odd that MM had asked for a replacement so late in the game (why not just play it out) and in response you swooped in with WHO CARES and berated him... and presto within a post or two he was on your suspect list. MM *was* mafia, and OGB *was* right to ask that question... and if you could stop falling all over yourself telling everyone else what they should be doing it might have borne fruit.

The mafia played you like an instrument, and you helped them along every single round of this game.

And for Pete's sake, stop talking about "political capital"--what rot. When your arguments are bad, when your play is poor, when you can't convince others, it's not because "nobody likes AGM". I like you just fine. If I didn't I wouldn't be trying to help you with your game. I'd be happy to simply learn how best to use you the next time I am mafia.

You began this campaign of shaking up the game in Mafia 8 on the basis that the playstyle of people like me is bad for the cits, and yet while I had ALL the mafia on my suspect list in R1 and voted for one of them, you didn't vote for any mafia in your 6 rounds here. The mafia voted for mafia more often than you did. Yes, you're right to say that anyone can be wrong--and you've certainly proven it by being spectacularly wrong this game at every opportunity.

But I don't fault you as a player for being wrong--that's not the problem. The problem is you seem to forget how wrong you are when you start accusing others with utter conviction and generating situations that the mafia can make use of. At the very least, if you are going to give the mafia presents, you should be watching who unwraps them--i.e. set a trap, and then spring it.

To summarize, I think you have been a liability to the cits the last two games, and if the situation does not improve dramatically, would consider you an appropriate R1 policy lynch in order to limit the amount of damage you could do in the future.

My recommendations are as follows:

1. When you speak, remember you are communicating directly to the mafia. They are going to use everything you say to manipulate the game. Do NOT give them ammo when it isn't necessary.

2. Speaking with conviction is dangerous, you motivate the crowd, but when you turn out to be wrong (as will usually be the case), they will begin to regard you as a crackpot. This is not the game you want to be "the boy who cried wolf" in--measure your suspicion, and when it is time to express it, express it in a measured fashion. Otherwise you are going to find a wolf someday and nobody is going to believe you.

3. Clash of the titans is the death of the cits... state your case, and move on. Do not get into bickering matches with other players if you can avoid it. All it does is chill the conversation in the room and provide the mafia with cover. (Yes, we're all guilty of this, me as much as the next guy--that doesn't mean it isn't something we should be avoiding.)

4. Nobody dies before the lynch, nobody dies before night phase ends. Be patient and increase your sample size of observations until you feel you don't have any more time to do so. Urgency is required in the late game. It is counterproductive in the first 10 posts of R1.

IMO, you've demonstrated repeatedly in this game an inability to accept criticism, so I don't hold out any hope that you will take anything I'm saying to heart but will instead simply fight back ad nauseum.

Given that, I will not be engaged in further conversation with you on this matter--the last word is yours--I will not read it. I am not going to devote more time to this subject. I need to focus on my game. You are the one who has to focus on yours.

My recommendation is that you set your pride aside for a bit and look at the way this game progressed now that you know where all the pieces were and be honest with yourself. Ask yourself why you were still alive in R6 if the mafia didn't think you were useful. Heck, they all pilevoted R1 on me (a rare R1 move to be sure, all 3 mafia in one pile)--don't you think if they thought you were the least bit dangerous you wouldn't still be here to see the game end in a cit loss?

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
quote:
Originally posted by Liq:
Please do not discuss your roles with anyone, live, dead or otherwise as to prevent accidents.

Just pointing this one out in light of recent conversation.

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I was a little disappointed when Bernek contacted me and revealed himself after I was lynched--it was nice to know I was on target with my suspicions, but it made it easier to track down the other mafia and put the game at risk. If for example somebody had posted in the PFS once the R5 votes were pretty much settled that the game was over, cits might have seen it and changed up their votes.

When MM contacted me after leaving the game, he was upset about something and inadvertently gave me a clue that let me deduce his role. At that point he was on a very short list (#3), but my top suspect for the "mafia who wasn't Bernek" was Jaz--based on pile analysis. I just couldn't believe that all three mafia would be in the same pile on R1. Live and learn!

I hope some of you folks will join us for WW! MM has promised that he will alternate with me and let me run every other game--I'd love the opportunity to bring a little creative writing to the game and zest up the flavor.

As far as the zombie club goes, I'm shutting down the ZC email address tonight. I'll set up a new one for the next game I'm in, and can set it up such that it doesn't include me when I am still alive. I think the zombie club was a good idea, and gave the deceased reason to follow the game closely and learn from each other.

Oh and Zak is brilliant. Did I mention that before?

It was only cuz I knew after my mistake I made in the round that I had to try and recover so I went after him hard and go back to my old play style. It seemed he got very frustrated with me and I wanted to make sure there were no hard feelings.

As for WCFmo blow up that was directed to throw the round scrap it cause confusion. I would request that you may reconsider his suspension seeing as it was advised and I let him know when to stop. Personally from a mafia standpoint it was hilarious.

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bernek77:
...It seemed he got very frustrated with me and I wanted to make sure there were no hard feelings...

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The UBB General Discussion Player's list went from 25+ ppl to 11-ish? And I'm not on it?
Why is anyone supposed to take that seriously if you're just gonna remove names from it because you want to?

~MM

Edit: Bernek and I played most of you from the beginning. MVP's? Not in Liq's mind
__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
@PD, the R1 pile vote was all part of the plan.
Unfortunately the plan was deviated from, and the lack of communication from certain individuals and the lynching of Bugger is why I left the game.

The UBB General Discussion Player's list went from 25+ ppl to 11-ish? And I'm not on it?
Why is anyone supposed to take that seriously if you're just gonna remove names from it because you want to?

~MM

Edit: Bernek and I played most of you from the beginning. MVP's? Not in Liq's mind

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MM I didn't want to NK Bugger, I know that wasn't part of the plan. I was waiting to talk to you then Liq PM'd me. I told him we were waiting for a replacement and he said well we wouldn't have to if we just solved the problem.

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

Grats Mafia. Pretty frustrating being on the sidelines. I don't understand the concept of ignoring arguments made by dead players who have been proven innocent.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gawain:
Oh, but you did it SOOOO well you evil man. That first post of yours was so creepy/smooth I didn't know whether to puke or grudgingly clap my hands. You may have only swung the hammer one last time, but that was the stroke that finally sunk the nail. Bravo Sir.

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It's really not nearly as difficult when the table's already been set. All I had to do was go over the entire thread and make the same notes I'd have made if I was a Cit, then just be a little more choosy about what points I want to pursue. The fact that things fell just so to where I was able to act pretty much the same as I would have as a Cit without having to throw Bernek under the bus too much and put him in much danger was a real bonus. I think most players would have been able to do the same things I did and reached the same results. The hardest part is making sure to not lean too heavily or too lightly on your partner in crime so that if they do get nabbed, people may figure out that you were playing up that knowledge and turn on you.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bernek77:
MM I didn't want to NK Bugger, I know that wasn't part of the plan. I was waiting to talk to you then Liq PM'd me. I told him we were waiting for a replacement and he said well we wouldn't have to if we just solved the problem.

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And this is precisely why I asked out of this game.
Liq should be impartial and not try to sway ANY player one way or another. Especially the Mafia leader. Shady.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Can you guys enlighten us on what the plan was? Why you made the choices you did? Where you intended the game to go and how you planned to get there?

I mean, if you don't mind giving away your tech.

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Bernek and I for the most part were in constant communication from the start.

Lol, we almost let MW live to create more confusion.
Basically we were gonna let AGM/Bugger get lynched by the cits. Then which ever was left alive would either get def lynched or eventually NK'ed.

I think I received 1 vote all game

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Meh. I'd have done the exact same thing as Liq in that situation. He didn't say you had to knock off Bugger, just that it would have been nice.

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That's not the point any you know it Jeff.

Bugger was never/EVER to be NK'ed. Impartiality is the way for the GM to go.
That won't happen in WW, I can promise you.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
That's not the point any you know it Jeff.

Bugger was never/EVER to be NK'ed. Impartiality is the way for the GM to go.
That won't happen in WW, I can promise you.

~MM

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It's exactly the point, actually. If he said "You must kill Bugger" then fine, that's crossing the line. If he said "You know, killing Bugger would help things out" it's still the Mafia Leader's call to say if they want to do that or not. I honestly don't see the slightest thing wrong with what Liq did.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
The UBB General Discussion Player's list went from 25+ ppl to 11-ish? And I'm not on it? Why is anyone supposed to take that seriously if you're just gonna remove names from it because you want to?

Edit: Bernek and I played most of you from the beginning. MVP's? Not in Liq's mind

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Check your PMs. The list is undergoing reconstruction. Everyone is reconfirming their status on the list.

You and Bernek played the same game of mafia that is tried and true. With the loss of the Cop/Doctor in the early game, the cits were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. All you guys had to do was keep the blood off yourselves which you did. nder on the other hand sealed the game by direction instead of misdirection.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bernek77:
MM I didn't want to NK Bugger, I know that wasn't part of the plan. I was waiting to talk to you then Liq PM'd me. I told him we were waiting for a replacement and he said well we wouldn't have to if we just solved the problem.

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My PM went something like this:

quote:

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Well I've been waiting for you guys to give me the kill before I replaced Bugger.

However if you want to solve the problem, that would be nice.

Otherwise I do have a name down for his replacement.

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I like to do the replacements with the movement of the phases in order to keep the game free flowing. The LA3/Zak replacement was to disrupt the chain of posts that were heading in a direction that Mafia isn't allowed to travel on.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
I do want to thank all of the people who cleared me early and claimed I really couldn't possibly be Mafia.

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FTR, Goaswerfraiejen was the first player to sevre as a replacement in a mafia game and he was the mafia leader.

PD - "What you *should* have done, and in fact what I told you to do before I died, was go back over my suspicions once you knew I was being honest and reassess them."

"yet while I had ALL the mafia on my suspect list in R1..."

Even a blind squirrel can find a nut (I'm not tyring to insult you, but you had like eight people you were suspicious of). Plus with 7/8 people you were suspicous of, it's more than likely going to have at least one or two mafia in it.

Also, I don't think PD meant only looking at HIS lists. For example, before I died, I had Bernek as my top suspicion.

I think reviewing the suspicions of the dead can have lots of positive information. It's not law by any stretch, but you shouldn't purely ignore it cause their dead either.