quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
If you generally disagree with what Bagbokk has mentioned in his posts it is bc you're really just a cheap scumbag wanting a free lunch.

Cards/shipping both cost money. MOTL'ers reward sellers who have reputations for matching ebay and offering actual cost shipping options. That seems like a good starting point for price. If you ask (although it really seems like the scumbags are actually "demanding") for a seller to budge more than that, it's really just depends on the deal.

A seller's sole purpose isn't to please buyers. But a buyer's sole purpose is to get everything at the most convenient time/cost. Cheap scumbags only take on the buyer's perspective when it comes to these discussions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Bagbokk, your explantion makes sense theoretically (as well it should, it's basic economic theory), but the reality is that there's no effort and lower risk on the buyer's part for simply searching for the same card on ebay and getting both a better deal and better buyer protection.

As an above poster noted, the benefits of being a seller on MOTL are obvious, but the benefits of buying are less so. Yes, deals can be found. Yes, sometimes it's ideal to be able to pick up multiple cards from the same source. But more often than not, it's far easier and cheaper to simply ebay search for the card you are looking for, and find not only a cheaper offering, but often with free shipping AND the added benefit of buyer protection.

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But the reality is also that I've made over $10k worth of sales on MOTL in just the past 6-8 months or so (likely more, I haven't really kept track), and I feel my prices are decent but certainly not as low as eBay-12%. That means that what I said isn't just theoretical, but practically works out as well. Sure, some buyers may be turned away at the prices, but others are happy to buy at these prices. Again, I only need one buyer per quantity of card that I have.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
If you generally disagree with what Bagbokk has mentioned in his posts it is bc you're really just a cheap scumbag wanting a free lunch.

Cards/shipping both cost money. MOTL'ers reward sellers who have reputations for matching ebay and offering actual cost shipping options. That seems like a good starting point for price. If you ask (although it really seems like the scumbags are actually "demanding") for a seller to budge more than that, it's really just depends on the deal.

A seller's sole purpose isn't to please buyers. But a buyer's sole purpose is to get everything at the most convenient time/cost. Cheap scumbags only take on the buyer's perspective when it comes to these discussions.

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So, you discounted every buyer's incentive to save money as being a "scumbag", while justifying non-competitive pricing from sellers as being a "reward" for high refs? Sound business plan.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Bagbokk, your explantion makes sense theoretically (as well it should, it's basic economic theory), but the reality is that there's no effort and lower risk on the buyer's part for simply searching for the same card on ebay and getting both a better deal and better buyer protection.

As an above poster noted, the benefits of being a seller on MOTL are obvious, but the benefits of buying are less so. Yes, deals can be found. Yes, sometimes it's ideal to be able to pick up multiple cards from the same source. But more often than not, it's far easier and cheaper to simply ebay search for the card you are looking for, and find not only a cheaper offering, but often with free shipping AND the added benefit of buyer protection.

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The benefits of buying off MOTL from reputable people are numerous. It really seems like you're just looking for underpriced deals. If that's the case, why are you complaining about not being able to scoop up cards for dirt-cheap?

You post as if "free-shipping" is the default on eBay. Couldn't be further from the truth. TBH, the overwhelming reality is that eBay sellers over-charge on shipping.

If you're looking for a playset of just one particular card, eBay is your best bet. eBay is a marketplace to whatever/whenever. MOTL a MTG-playing community. The trade forum is vastly larger than the buy/sell forum and it clearly shows that most ppl on here are out to build decks.

If you're set on building a deck, this is a better place. If you're set on knowing the true condition before you buy, this is a better place. If you want to COMBINE SHIPPING FOR MULITPLE ITEMS FOR FREE on your orders, this is a better place (does it rly cost +$0.5-$1 to ship a few more cards). If you want to find obscure cards, this is a better place.

I know that you're only going to look out for yourself. So, I'll ask you...do all of these "benefits" from eBay come without a price to buyers? For mtg card buyers, the answer is no. For all of the reasons you list eBay as great for buyers, it's horrible for sellers. A lot of stuff you used to be able to find on eBay is much harder to find nowadays directly because of this.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
So, you discounted every buyer's incentive to save money as being a "scumbag", while justifying non-competitive pricing from sellers as being a "reward" for high refs? Sound business plan.

This is not why I started the thread. I was honestly perplexed as to why T/A pricing is ever on par (or above) ebay values, given the lack of buyer protections for MOTL purchases. I've gotten some useful answers (seller apathy, supplemental market, etc.). Using Generalized attacks was not one of them.

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My sales post is under-valued according to eBay. You want to buy from me?

eBay is a pretty good gauge for pricing for most things. It's not seller apathy that make price on par with eBay. It's just the actual price.

Buyer's don't pay any extra for the buyer's protection. That's paid for by taking a percentage out for the sellers.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
The benefits of buying off MOTL from reputable people are numerous.

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Could you elaborate on that?

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
Could you elaborate on that?

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From my previous post, in case you didn't read past...

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
If you're set on building a deck, this is a better place. If you're set on knowing the true condition before you buy, this is a better place. If you want to COMBINE SHIPPING FOR MULITPLE ITEMS FOR FREE on your orders, this is a better place (does it rly cost +$0.5-$1 to ship a few more cards). If you want to find obscure cards, this is a better place.[/B]

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I'll reiterate this for those who esteem the merits of "free shipping" that is so seemingly abundant on eBay (...not). Combining shipping on MOTL is often much cheaper than on eBay. Sellers frequently ask for +$0.50 to $1 for each additional auction won, even if it's just a single card.

I'm sure you want more, so....
1. Try collecting sets on eBay.
2. Try posting a buylist on eBay.
3. Try haggling on eBay.

I only advocate buying on MOTL from reputable people.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
The benefits of buying off MOTL from reputable people are numerous. It really seems like you're just looking for underpriced deals. If that's the case, why are you complaining about not being able to scoop up cards for dirt-cheap?

You post as if "free-shipping" is the default on eBay. Couldn't be further from the truth. TBH, the overwhelming reality is that eBay sellers over-charge on shipping.

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Here's just a couple examples to counter that argument.

Scavenging Ooze-
http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=scavenging+ooze&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

Knight of the Reliquary-
http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=knight+of+the+reliquary&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

Tons of free shipping, and pricing 10-20% below most MOTL T/A threads. That's on top of the buyer benefits associated with ebay. I'm not trying to shill for ebay, but I find Bagbokk's claim of moving 10k+ worth of cards per month is hard to believe when so many factors theoretically hinder traffic and appeal of the T/A forum.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:

I know that you're only going to look out for yourself. So, I'll ask you...do all of these "benefits" from eBay come without a price to buyers? For mtg card buyers, the answer is no. For all of the reasons you list eBay as great for buyers, it's horrible for sellers. A lot of stuff you used to be able to find on eBay is much harder to find nowadays directly because of this.

My sales post is under-valued according to eBay. You want to buy from me?

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What you said makes no sense. If sellers are saving themselves overhead costs by skipping ebay fees AND maintaining ebay prices, then there's logically no reason for a buyer to choose the MOTL offer over the ebay offer. Plain and simple. Why take the added risk for no savings?

Also, I'd love a link to your sale list. Couldn't find it through the search function.

Secondly, there's plenty of benefits for sellers associated with ebay, though granted a lot of them are in place to encourage shady selling practices (stock photos, generic condition wording, etc.).

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
It's not seller apathy that make price on par with eBay. It's just the actual price.

Buyer's don't pay any extra for the buyer's protection. That's paid for by taking a percentage out for the sellers.

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Again, when sellers "pocket" that overhead associated with buyer protection, there's zero incentive to buy from a MOTL user.

I totally get bagbokk's argument. It essentially boils down to the age-old business practice of "location, location, location". All it takes is one lazy buyer to not spend 5 minutes price-checking a card on other venues in order for bagbokk to make good money on his product. if that's how T/A survives, so be it. It's an honest answer at least.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
If you're set on building a deck, this is a better place. If you're set on knowing the true condition before you buy, this is a better place. If you want to COMBINE SHIPPING FOR MULITPLE ITEMS FOR FREE on your orders, this is a better place (does it rly cost +$0.5-$1 to ship a few more cards). If you want to find obscure cards, this is a better place.

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Why is it better to buy on MOTL if you are building a deck? Could you explain?

Why is MOTL a better place for knowing the true condition of the card? A lot of eBay auction has actual pictures of the physical card you are bidding on, so could you also explain why you believe MOTL is better at finding out the true condition?

A lot of MOTL T/A has the same shipping structure as eBay, where they charge you X amount of dollar for the first 4 cards, then an additional Y amount for every other 4 cards. A lot of sellers on MOTL also request the buyer to waive his/her rights unless insurance is bought for the items, so how is that any better than eBay shipping?

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
From my previous post, in case you didn't read past...

I'll reiterate this for those who esteem the merits of "free shipping" that is so seemingly abundant on eBay (...not). Combining shipping on MOTL is often much cheaper than on eBay. Sellers frequently ask for +$0.50 to $1 for each additional auction won, even if it's just a single card.

I'm sure you want more, so....
1. Try collecting sets on eBay.
2. Try posting a buylist on eBay.
3. Try haggling on eBay.

I only advocate buying on MOTL from reputable people.

Please note, that these positives doesn't mean that there are opposite negatives for eBay. I just want to point out that there is a purpose/appeal for the T/A forum.

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1.) There are a lot of complete sets on eBay that you can just bid on, instead of trying to win 200+ auctions and complete a set 1 by 1. If you are trying to complete an unfinished set, then yes, it will be better on MOTL ONLY if you could find a seller that has a lot of what you are after at a reasonable price, which is not an easy task on MOTL, considered we don't have a lot of sellers with a big inventory.

2.) The MOTL buy list is great, but more often than not, if you can't find something on eBay, you aren't going to find it here.

3.) Why do I need to haggle on eBay, when the price is usually lower than what people are asking on MOTL? Besides, there is nothing that is stopping you from sending offers to an eBay seller who has a BIN price that you don't like.

edit:
eBay also doesn't ask you to pay as gift, or add 4% to your total, which is the norm on MOTL. Unless the product is selling for significantly less than what is available on eBay, there is simply no reason to pay the same amount and buy from MOTL sellers.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

Advantages:
- You can BIN for roughly ebays closing prices. We're all human here. Who doesn't like instant gratification?
- You can save on shipping if its multiple cards which is a big plus for some of the reseller/stores here.
- You get fast shipping. Ebay sellers can take a while to send cards.
- You can haggle
- Once in a while you can get great deals.
- The chance of me getting a good deal here is better than me getting a good deal on ebay. personal experience. your mileage may vary.

quote:

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I'm not trying to shill for ebay, but I find Bagbokk's claim of moving 10k+ worth of cards per month is hard to believe when so many factors theoretically hinder traffic and appeal of the T/A forum.

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Not per month, but in total, though that number is just a really rough estimate. Although, just in the last 2 weeks or so I've confirmed close to $3,000 in total sales to various MOTL/MTGS members. Monthly sales are based off what I happen to buy/resell at the time (sales for the next month or two will be higher due to me picking up a large collection recently).

quote:

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t essentially boils down to the age-old business practice of "location, location, location". All it takes is one lazy buyer to not spend 5 minutes price-checking a card on other venues in order for bagbokk to make good money on his product.

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It's not all this, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why people don't buy on eBay. For example, most of the posters here that are arguing on the other side are from the US, while a lot of people that buy stuff from the TA/S forums are international. I believe between myself and choco man, and simbayu above, we've already listed plenty of other reasons why people would rather buy here than on eBay. Whether you agree with those reasons or not, they're perfectly reasonable and I'm sure at least part of the reason some people prefer to buy here.

I miss the good ol days where you could buy people's cards without these politics.

If someone is willing to pay $50 for a card on Ebay, they'll be willing to pay $50 on MOTL, especially from a high ref member (which effectively serves as the MOTL version of buyer protection). What's difficult to understand about that? Lower refs members should price cards lower to incentivize people to buy from them rather than those with higher refs (factoring in price reduction due to risk and lack of protection). Once you hit a good number of refs, those refs serve as buyer protection. I know I've gladly given partial refunds to people even when they agreed to not hold me responsible for lost mail to maintain my good standing and earn repeat customers. I'm sure other members like MTDetermine have done the same as well

quote:

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Originally posted by baldr7:
here's why you sell on MOTL:

If someone is willing to pay $50 for a card on Ebay, they'll be willing to pay $50 on MOTL, especially from a high ref member (which effectively serves as the MOTL version of buyer protection). What's difficult to understand about that? Lower refs members should price cards lower to incentivize people to buy from them rather than those with higher refs (factoring in price reduction due to risk and lack of protection). Once you hit a good number of refs, those refs serve as buyer protection. I know I've gladly given partial refunds to people even when they agreed to not hold me responsible for lost mail to maintain my good standing and earn repeat customers. I'm sure other members like MTDetermine have done the same as well

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This is pretty idiotic. High refs =/= buyer protection. On your T/A thread, you even asked people to not hold you responsible if the mail doesn't get to them, so I am not sure what the heck you are talking about.

Why should I pay $50 to buy from you and have the risk of lost/stolen mail on me, when I can pay $50 to buy from eBay and have the risk on the seller instead?

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
This is pretty idiotic. High refs =/= buyer protection. On your T/A thread, you even asked people to not hold you responsible if the mail doesn't get to them, so I am not sure what the heck you are talking about.

Why should I pay $50 to buy from you and have the risk of lost/stolen mail on me, when I can pay $50 to buy from eBay and have the risk on the seller instead?

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He's referring to "buyer protection" in the sense that you can be very certain that you won't have problems if you buy from a member with a high number of references. USPS errors aside, the chances of a high ref member not sending your cards or otherwise engaging in bad trading practices is extremely low. As someone else mentioned above, I've also had more problems when buying off eBay than I have here.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
He's referring to "buyer protection" in the sense that you can be very certain that you won't have problems if you buy from a member with a high number of references. USPS errors aside, the chances of a high ref member not sending your cards or otherwise engaging in bad trading practices is extremely low. As someone else mentioned above, I've also had more problems when buying off eBay than I have here.

It's nice to know that you'll get a full refund if something goes wrong on eBay; it's nicer to know that something won't go wrong in the first place if you buy from a reputable member here. It's not the same use of the term "buyer protection" but both provide a sense of security when purchasing cards. I've had to go through resolution center about 10 times on eBay in the last 6 months, either due to buyers not paying for their auctions (most common) or problems with sellers (non-receipt or not-as-described). I've had to contact more than 5 sellers on eBay in the past 6 months to get partial refunds because cards weren't as described. I've had to do this only once buying off MOTL/MTGS (and it was actually on MTGS).

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Are you serious? How can you be certain that a member with high ref on MOTL will always send out the goods? There have been previous incidents where a member with high ref was banned for ripping. Besides, there are plenty of eBay sellers with 10k+ positive feedback, so aren't they even more trust worthy than a high ref MOTLer?

If seller on eBay didn't send me my goods, I get refund from eBay. If seller on MOTL didn't send me my goods, they get BTA and possibly banned, but that doesn't guarantee I will received anything.

At the end of the day, why should a buyer take on unnecessary risk when they could get the same thing risk free for the same amount of money? Once again, unless the MOTL seller is selling for less than eBay prices, there is absolutely no reason to buy from you guys.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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This is pretty idiotic.

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quote:

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Are you serious?

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You've already stopped discussing reasonably, so when you stop responding out of emotion to anyone that disagrees with what you're saying, we can pick this back up. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them ridiculous and idiotic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
You've already stopped discussing reasonably, so when you stop responding out of emotion to anyone that disagrees with what you're saying, we can pick this back up. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them ridiculous and idiotic.

That being said: All of you people that post here about how it's always better to buy from eBay already don't buy from sellers on MOTL, yet the TA/S forum is still going perfectly fine without you. That should say a lot.

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What? I gave you legitimate reasons why it is dumb to charge people the same here as what you would charged on eBay, and you call that unreasonable?

You have yet to answer me why buyers should take on unnecessary risk for the same price of what they could get risk free from eBay. Is OK to not know the answer, but don't think you can derail this into something else and avoid answering.

edit:
Using your T/A thread as an example, if I buy from you, not only do I have to add 4% for CC Paypal, but I also have to pay $4 shipping, and waive my rights. If I buy from eBay, I don't have to pay 4% fee, only $2 shipping with buyer's protection, and eBay bucks that I use to spend on future goods! So, please tell me, if both you and an eBay seller are both selling the same good for the same price, which is more attractive?

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
What? I gave you legitimate reasons why it is dumb to charge people the same here as what you would charged on eBay, and you call that unreasonable?

You have yet to answer me why buyers should take on unnecessary risk for the same price of what they could get risk free from eBay. Is OK to not know the answer, but don't think you can derail this into something else and avoid answering.

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The tone of every single one of your posts beyond the first gives the impression that you are no longer discussing this reasonably at all. You're just being ****ed off at everyone that disagrees with you and insulting them. Stop insulting people with every post you make and you might get a little further with getting "answers" if that's what you really want.

There has been no less than 3 posts in this thread, and most likely more, giving reasons why people choose to buy here rather than eBay. The fact that you didn't respond to any of these points and instead began to insult people tells me that you're reading selectively and choosing to ignore perfectly valid points.

How many people have posted here saying they deal on MOTL because of trustworthy people? That directly refutes your point even before you made it. Yes, there have been "previous incidents" of a member with high ref being banned for ripping. How many incidents in the 10+ year history of this site? Versus how many issues have people posting in this thread likely have had on eBay? You keep talking about taking on unnecessary risk, yet you continue to fail to realize that the risk is so minimal that it's negligible. Is your time not valuable? Do you like loaning out money to random strangers and waiting a month before you get it back? That's what happens on eBay when you pay someone and they never ship your stuff. And it happens often. Those people with 10k+ feedback often have a number of neutrals and negatives, some of which would have been BTA-able offenses on MOTL, which they would have avoided.

I choose to buy from high-ref MOTLers when I can because I am 100% confident I will receive the cards I pay for. It's perfectly reasonable if you don't feel the same confidence and decide to rely on eBay buyer protection, but again, just because people don't see things the same way you do doesn't make them idiotic.

quote:

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Using your T/A thread as an example, if I buy from you, not only do I have to add 4% for CC Paypal, but I also have to pay $4 shipping, and waive my rights. If I buy from eBay, I don't have to pay 4% fee, only $2 shipping with buyer's protection, and eBay bucks that I use to spend on future goods! So, please tell me, if both you and an eBay seller are both selling the same good for the same price, which is more attractive?

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You're also missing the fact that just because completed listings sell for something doesn't mean the same card is readily available at the same price. This is the point of MOTL sales being BINs, one of the many points you've ignored.

Let's take my Flooded Strands for example. I have them listed at $30 each, MOTL has them at $30.85 each so that's the average eBay completed price (MOTL weekly is at 29.59).

Cool. Now let's do an eBay search for Flooded Strands. 13 results found for AUCTIONS. One ends today (in less than an hour), two for $70.00. One ends tomorrow and is currently at $20.50. Two more ends in 2 days, one at $22.50 already and a playset at $102.59.

So, what if you needed two Flooded Strands? Do you pay $10 higher on two of them over my $30/ea? Do you try to win both 1x auctions? Do you pay extra to get a playset? What if the auctions don't end at "average" eBay completed, but ends higher? (After all, average typically means some are lower and others are higher).

Or wait, there's always BINs! Yep, there are. 38 of them. And the lowest price on them is $35.00 with free shipping.

$60.00 + $4.00 shipping + 4% for CC paypal still comes out to $66.56.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
The tone of every single one of your posts beyond the first gives the impression that you are no longer discussing this reasonably at all. You're just being ****ed off at everyone that disagrees with you and insulting them. Stop insulting people with every post you make and you might get a little further with getting "answers" if that's what you really want.

There has been no less than 3 posts in this thread, and most likely more, giving reasons why people choose to buy here rather than eBay. The fact that you didn't respond to any of these points and instead began to insult people tells me that you're reading selectively and choosing to ignore perfectly valid points.

How many people have posted here saying they deal on MOTL because of trustworthy people? That directly refutes your point even before you made it. Yes, there have been "previous incidents" of a member with high ref being banned for ripping. How many incidents in the 10+ year history of this site? Versus how many issues have people posting in this thread likely have had on eBay? You keep talking about taking on unnecessary risk, yet you continue to fail to realize that the risk is so minimal that it's negligible. Is your time not valuable? Do you like loaning out money to random strangers and waiting a month before you get it back? That's what happens on eBay when you pay someone and they never ship your stuff. And it happens often. Those people with 10k+ feedback often have a number of neutrals and negatives, some of which would have been BTA-able offenses on MOTL, which they would have avoided.

I choose to buy from high-ref MOTLers when I can because I am 100% confident I will receive the cards I pay for. It's perfectly reasonable if you don't feel the same confidence and decide to rely on eBay buyer protection, but again, just because people don't see things the same way you do doesn't make them idiotic.

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Maybe if you made more sense I wouldn't have to drill you for it?

Minimal risk is still a risk. When you can have no risk for the same price, why would you ever want to take on any risk!? The BTA is good and all, but once again, it doesn't help you get your money back!

Sometimes, is not even like the high ref member rips you off on purpose. The postal service could make a boo boo, and if I waive my rights, I will be the one who gets the short end of the stick. On eBay, I wouldn't even have to worry about the postal service screwing things up.

Risk free > 0.000001% risk.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
The tone of every single one of your posts beyond the first gives the impression that you are no longer discussing this reasonably at all. You're just being ****ed off at everyone that disagrees with you and insulting them. Stop insulting people with every post you make and you might get a little further with getting "answers" if that's what you really want.

There has been no less than 3 posts in this thread, and most likely more, giving reasons why people choose to buy here rather than eBay. The fact that you didn't respond to any of these points and instead began to insult people tells me that you're reading selectively and choosing to ignore perfectly valid points.

How many people have posted here saying they deal on MOTL because of trustworthy people? That directly refutes your point even before you made it. Yes, there have been "previous incidents" of a member with high ref being banned for ripping. How many incidents in the 10+ year history of this site? Versus how many issues have people posting in this thread likely have had on eBay? You keep talking about taking on unnecessary risk, yet you continue to fail to realize that the risk is so minimal that it's negligible. Is your time not valuable? Do you like loaning out money to random strangers and waiting a month before you get it back? That's what happens on eBay when you pay someone and they never ship your stuff. And it happens often. Those people with 10k+ feedback often have a number of neutrals and negatives, some of which would have been BTA-able offenses on MOTL, which they would have avoided.

I choose to buy from high-ref MOTLers when I can because I am 100% confident I will receive the cards I pay for. It's perfectly reasonable if you don't feel the same confidence and decide to rely on eBay buyer protection, but again, just because people don't see things the same way you do doesn't make them idiotic.

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this sums it up perfectly for me. there will always be red herrings of high ref members ripping. it happens very rarely. I'll find instances of that happening with ebay too. Graded Magic cards? the guy who sits on thousands of feedback, doesn't ship cards, and wins in the ebay resolution center? oops, guess we should never use ebay because there's a single person who games the system. my rules on my sales list are to protect me in light of the recent rules revelations about motl. prior to that, I only required people to agree not to hold me responsible if they chose not to purchase tracking. Soooo, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this junichi. People have pointed out multiple reasons why to shop here rather than Ebay. If it's so clear cut, why are you still here?

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
Maybe if you made more sense I wouldn't have to drill you for it?

Minimal risk is still a risk. When you can have no risk for the same price, why would you ever want to take on any risk!? The BTA is good and all, but once again, it doesn't help you get your money back!

Sometimes, is not even like the high ref member rips you off on purpose. The postal service could make a boo boo, and if I waive my rights, I will be the one who gets the short end of the stick. On eBay, I wouldn't even have to worry about the postal service screwing things up.

Risk free > 0.000001% risk.

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Sure, if you look at MOTL and Ebay and claim that the ONLY difference between the two is Ebay buyer protection, then you shouldn't shop on motl. but it's not the only difference, as me, bagbokk, and MANY others have pointed out. If you feel that the risk of a high ref member not sending (happened maybe 1-2 times in motl history) or items getting lost in the mail (actually just doesn't happen in the US) outweighs all the benefits we've pointed out, then Ebay is the better place for you. Better yet, who says you can't shop from both?

As a member of MOTL, I would rather buy/sell on MOTL rather than ebay.

1. Speed. When I want to sell a card, I want it sold, and I want it done fast. What do I do? Put it at or below ebay prices on here, instead of going through the whole rigmorale of ebay auctions and a GREATER plethora of foreign buyers. Oh, and my 265 refs on here are a lot better than my minimal selling refs on ebay. I can thus get more here htan if I did an auction at ebay.
My experience is small, but I might be baised, because I am a MUCH MORE avid member on MOTL than ebay.

2. My wants are extremely weird, mainly because of EDH. A lot of my wants are bulk rares. When I go on SCG or what not, how much do they want for them? $0.50-$1.00 PER. If I went to eBay, that is looking at different BINs from different Sellers, and what not - very time consuming.
SCG wants it for $0.50. Ebay BINs have it for $0.75 with $1.00 shipping or 4 for $1.00. I need one, not four.
It is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to look at someones full sale list, and get one of for each random $0.25 rare I need. I don't care about condition for them for the most part, so no need to put EVERY card in a toploader. I get the 40 some odd cards I need, FROM THE SAME SELLER, for relatively cheap shipping, as MOTL has a much better way of DIRECTLY talking to the seller and getting the appropriate cost of shipping. I don't need to scour eBay BINs/shipping costs and don't have to deal with the higher prices that dealers have.

MOTL is WAY superior for a guy like me. Granted, there aren't many MOTL sale lists that usually list their bulk rares (the bigs ones like Mab and Slinga's old list were bigger name stuff), but some sellers (like choco) look at HW lists and see if the person is willing to buy.
For my purposes, MOTL is much more convenient, and for certain 'bulk' rares (from $0.10-$0.50), much better than alternatives. Even if the prices are comparable, it's much easier/quicker for me to scour a sales list on here with what I need than go over to Ebay, personally.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
It's also entirely possible that the "deals" in terms of T/A offerings are just snapped up so quickly that it seems like the rest of the stuff isn't competitively priced, or maybe there's just more behind-the-scenes haggling that goes on through emails and PMs.

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Yes, deals go quick on here. Huntmaster was one of them. As was Mutavault back in the day. And also more haggling as well.

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Originally posted by scipio624:
I would much rather sell/[buy] here even if I had to pass on the entire savings of the fees (eBay and Paypal) just so someone playing magic is saving the money as opposed to eBay collecting the fees.

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Originally posted by junichi:
Maybe if you made more sense I wouldn't have to drill you for it?

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There you go again, just because you don't agree doesn't make my response make any less sense.

Also, I edited my above post to include an example from my list, since I didn't want to double-post so quickly and you pointed out my list as one that is seemingly so much worse than buying on eBay.

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Minimal risk is still a risk. When you can have no risk for the same price, why would you ever want to take on any risk!? The BTA is good and all, but once again, it doesn't help you get your money back!

Sometimes, is not even like the high ref member rips you off on purpose. The postal service could make a boo boo, and if I waive my rights, I will be the one who gets the short end of the stick. On eBay, I wouldn't even have to worry about the postal service screwing things up.

Risk free > 0.000001% risk.

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Originally posted by baldr7:
Sure, if you look at MOTL and Ebay and claim that the ONLY difference between the two is Ebay buyer protection, then you shouldn't shop on motl. but it's not the only difference, as me, bagbokk, and MANY others have pointed out. If you feel that the risk of a high ref member not sending (happened maybe 1-2 times in motl history) or items getting lost in the mail (actually just doesn't happen in the US) outweighs all the benefits we've pointed out, then Ebay is the better place for you. Better yet, who says you can't shop from both?

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Things do get lost in mail. The LoA I sent out as prize for Jaz's raffle ended up being a lost mail, and I had to send out another high value card as a compensation to the winner.

I used to buy from MOTL only, more or less because Slinga has a huge inventory and I could grab a lot of stuff off him for a very reasonable amount, but after he stopped selling stuff here, there just isn't another dealer worth dealing with on MOTL.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:

.0000001% risk is functionally the same thing as 0% risk. Maybe not to something like insurance companies and what not, but for most people, there is a point where the risk is so negligible that we just don't see it as a risk anymore. Particularly when there are other advantages that you continue to ignore; you're so hung up about the one millionth percentage of risk. Noah is right; if that's all you worry about, then keep buying on eBay.

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That 0.0000001% is just a figure of speech. We all know the risk is actually much higher than that. If you check the BTA, there are a lot of cases were packages are lost. It might not happen to you, but when it does, you would wish you had buyer's protection.

Btw, I do buy from eBay more often than here, more or less because the prices are generally better, the shipping is much more reasonable for me (international) than what I could get on MOTL, I don't have to waive my rights, and I get eBay bucks.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

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Originally posted by junichi:
On eBay, I wouldn't even have to worry about the postal service screwing things up.

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Really? Because that is 100% contrary to their policy. As long as the seller has delivery confirmation, you're screwed, even if you never got the item. I've had it happen. MOTL policy is much stricter than ebay and much better for the buyer. Didn't we just have a huge discussion about this?

MOTL's big advantage is that it combines the ease of buying from an online store with the prices of ebay. Online stores are great because you can buy a ton of cards without getting hosed on shipping or having to buy from a dozen different sellers, but most online stores are more expensive than ebay, especially when it comes to staples. Try finding Tarmogoyfs or Dark Confidants at a reasonable price from Starcity or Strike Zone or CCGHouse. On MOTL there are a zillion sellers with them, at ebay prices or close.