Also remember that MOTL sales are essentially BINs while their prices mirror eBay auction endings. So maybe for stuff like Snapcasters you can find a bunch for $18-20 on eBay every day and don't necessarily need to buy off MOTL for the same price, but for other stuff it's very possible & likely that not many are sold every single day via eBay auctions, and BINs are often very overpriced.

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I guess that's why I still don't understand the lack of a price discrepancy.

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Just because sellers might get less on eBay due to fees (not necessarily always) doesn't mean buyers aren't paying the full price. If a card is selling for $50, you as the buyer would be paying $50 for it on eBay, not ~$44 even if that's what the seller nets. So why do I need to sell it for $44 when you would be willing to pay up to $50 if it were being sold on eBay? Yes, you're often able to haggle sellers down a few dollars but it makes no sense to expect 10-15% off everything just because the seller isn't being charged fees here. I'd be just as happy to sell that $50 card for $47 if you make that offer, and both of us should be happy with that deal: you spend $3 less, I get $3 more. There's no reason at all that I should have to go all the way down to $44 and let the buyer reap the (price-related) benefits for buying off MOTL rather than eBay.

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Is there really that large of a market for buyers that absolutely have to have a package of multiple cards in less than a business week?

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Yes, actually. I've also forgot to mention something fairly important as far as buyers go. A lot of people are dealers or otherwise buy/sell/trade a lot in their local markets, which can have vastly different prices. If you take a look at a few of the people that have significant buylists, they're almost all international, and at least two retailers and other people that buy/sell for their stores have come here in the past with large buylists at prices that MOTLers are very willing to sell at (CFB and T&T). I've also had a few other people buy stuff from me for ~eBay prices that pretty clearly are reselling to a local (or otherwise inaccessible to me) market.

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there's just more behind-the-scenes haggling that goes on through emails and PMs.

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You also get to skip the whole bidding process. Its nice to be able to just get what you want easily. You can also use cards as payments if someone is looking for something.

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Originally posted by HandicapParking:
As a Canadian I buy here so I can get dirt cheap shipping.

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Uh, I don't see anything dirt cheap here. Everybody demands $15 nowadays.

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Originally posted by dwiz:
Most people here are charging ebay completed prices and then charging 4% for paypal and shipping on top. It's insane.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Uh, I don't see anything dirt cheap here. Everybody demands $15 nowadays.

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I'll add the standard response here that most people here are willing to ship for cheaper, as long as you're willing to accept the responsibility for lost/stolen/damaged packages if you choose the cheap option. PWE costs starting at $1.05 ($1.25 non-machinable), standard bubble mailer costs starting at $3.00 (Canada) or $3.78 (rest of the world).

eBay doesn't allow the parties to negotiate around their policies, so more-careful sellers will also charge higher shipping rates there in requiring registered mail (or an otherwise acceptable form of delivery confirmation that eBay accepts for seller protection).

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Originally posted by dwiz:
I feel that if you want to pretend to be a business, you can't have it every single way. Sellers here want to not pay the paypal fee. They want to overcharge for shipping. They want to not be responsible when things get lost. They want ebay prices without paying ebay fees. I'll go ebay every time. 5% cash back on my credit card, ebay bucks, I'm getting refunded if you don't send, and often cheaper prices, even for BINs.

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The really short response is: then go on eBay every time!

Apparently what we (sellers) are doing is working for us here; if it didn't work, the TA/S forum would be dead because we would never sell anything. If we never get any buyers here because of the way we sell cards, then we'd either change our practices that some of you complain so much of, or go elsewhere.

Mentioning both "overcharging for shipping" and "want to not be responsible" is possibly redundant, because it's typically one or the other. Sellers "overcharge" for shipping because they want to be protected; if the buyer chooses cheaper shipping options, then the way to protect ourselves is to ask to not be held responsible. I also don't even really see many instances of actual "overcharging." People that charge $3 for domestic mail do so because they don't print out labels online, in which case their actual cost is $3. People that charge $15 for international mail are doing so because they're sending it registered--again, the actual cost of shipping. Same thing happens often on eBay, anyway. I've actually had many more instances of actual overcharging (someone charges $3 for shipping but sending in a PWE; someone charges $5 for shipping but just sends via our typical bubble+DC which MOTL members charge $3 max for, etc) buying off eBay than MOTL.

Also the community helps weed out the bad seeds. I'm pretty cautious and I've had zero ripping experiences in 10 years here.

The T/A board is mostly high priced because dealers realized they could buy and sell there. I'd still rather buy and sell than try to work out trades with people, though. Relative values are highly subjective- cash values are less so.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Of course we don't like to pay the fees; but then again, no one's even attempted to respond to my previous point about why we should significant lower prices due to fees when the buyer would have to pay the full price on eBay anyways.

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How about because you are not selling on Ebay!

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
I'd be just as happy to sell that $50 card for $47 if you make that offer, and both of us should be happy with that deal: you spend $3 less, I get $3 more. There's no reason at all that I should have to go all the way down to $44 and let the buyer reap the (price-related) benefits for buying off MOTL rather than eBay.

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So why dont you just price it at $47?

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
There's no reason at all that I should have to go all the way down to $44 and let the buyer reap the (price-related) benefits for buying off MOTL rather than eBay.

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There's no reason at all that I should pay the same price that I would pay on Ebay and let the seller reap the benefits for selling on MOTL rather then ebay.

As a buyer I prefer to buy on eBay from a regular seller (preferably top-rated) as opposed to buying here unless I can save on the price here. If I can save 5-10% buying here (and not have to pay 4% for using paypal non gift) then I would definitely prefer purchasing from MOTL, but that isn't usually the case. If I need to buy multiple cards then sometimes it just makes more sense here if I can purchase it all from one person, but that isn't always possible either. Here I can leave a 3 if they even ask for a ref, where on eBay I can leave a neg, leave 1's and 2's on their DSR's (which for a top rated seller is a HUGE deal, worse then a neg in my opinion) or open a dispute. There is little worry about condition as I can always open a paypal dispute (that's one reason I will NEVER pay by gift to anyone on any site).

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
I get good lots here, and there are tons of very trustworthy people.

Also the community helps weed out the bad seeds. I'm pretty cautious and I've had zero ripping experiences in 10 years here.

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Over 200 trades and 2 years on MOTL and I have never been ripped. ~1 week and 1 trade on another site (not MTGS) and I was ripped. Not to mention the staff on the other forum was terrible.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Not wanting to pay PayPal and eBay fees, yet wanting "eBay prices" on cards are also both pretty much the same thing, so mentioning it twice is also a little redundant. Of course we don't like to pay the fees; but then again, no one's even attempted to respond to my previous point about why we should significant lower prices due to fees when the buyer would have to pay the full price on eBay anyways. I can see a couple % off for eBay bucks (2%) and the like, but not the full 10-15%.

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Originally posted by -Lunch_Box-:
If you can offer better prices like in your example and still make a better profit then selling on ebay why dont you?

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Again, very short answer: Because it's still going to sell at $50.

I take it you've never sold anything before. Let's continue the example of a $50 card.

There are X number of buyers willing to purchase any given card at any given price. For every lower amount, you simply increase the number of potential buyers. For a seller to maximize profits, they only need to balance X to somewhere between "zero" and a number where they can realistically find a buyer(s) willing to purchase their items.

Thus, if we say that I can price my cards anywhere between $44 and $50 (assuming below $44 is lowballing and above $50 will never make a sale), then I evaluate how difficult it will be to make a sale at each given price range. If you listed a FoW at $44 that there are ten people that will jump on it within a week. If you listed it at $47, there will probably be five people that do so. If you listed it at $50, it will probably still sell--but there will only be one buyer and they'll post whenever they see your sale list--it could be within an hour and it could be within a week. But they would pick it up at $50. All I need is to make one sale, not ten. So I list it at $50 and wait for that one buyer with such a demand for the card at $50 to arrive and pick it up.

The above also doesn't discuss haggling at all. Most people here haggle to some extent or another. I list something at $50, they'll want to haggle it down to $47. I list something at $47, they'll want to haggle it down to $44.

Somehow every "buyer" (quotes because these people probably don't actually buy much--the people actively buying on the TA/S forums haven't and just might not post here at all) here seems to have the attitude that they're the only buyer out there, and that if they don't buy something, no one else is going to either. That if they feel something is overpriced, then everyone else does too. That's just absolutely not true.

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If you are using MOTL, Apathy, ect, their price is an average. That means about half of the auctions are selling for less than what you are wanting for your cards. It is easy to buy most cards for less, so you are not only selling for more than you'd get on Ebay (by avoiding fees), but the buyer would be paying more than he can buy on Ebay (not to mention buyer rebates). On cheap cards it probably isn't worth the effort, but on more expensive cards you should be selling between Ebay and Ebay-12%.

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Cards/shipping both cost money. MOTL'ers reward sellers who have reputations for matching ebay and offering actual cost shipping options. That seems like a good starting point for price. If you ask (although it really seems like the scumbags are actually "demanding") for a seller to budge more than that, it's really just depends on the deal.

I also found that the prices are really all over the places, and are generally less competitive than eBay's prices. A lot of times, it just doesn't make any sense to pay eBay's price on MOTL, when you can pay the same on eBay with buyer's protection.

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MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion