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Author Topic:   Controversial Banning 2015
Volcanon
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posted July 03, 2015 03:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
No thread for this yet, Zach Jesse was banned until 2049 from the DCI because ten years ago he pled guilty to sexual battery as part of a plea bargain.

Hopefully we can all be civil.

Obviously any sex crime is capital-B bad, but this is a guy who served his time, has reformed and got his civil rights back some time later. Wizards also blocked his MTGO account permanently.

This is a bad precedent. One other hall of famer has a drug dealing rap. Further, he never did anything wrong as a magic player or at a magic event. Presumably the SCG loudmouth who started blabbering about this guy's record googled him or something.

I don't think it is WOTC's place to punish somebody for something that happened 10 years ago. That's the role of the judicial system. Nobody knew or cared about his record until the SCG guy blabbed about it. Continuing to punish somebody for life even after they have served their time is simply not constructive. How do you draw the line? Would an armed robbery conviction disqualify somebody from being allowed to play magic? What about fraud? I know a certain Brick and Mortar storeowner in town who has a rich history selling stolen goods.

 
Tiff
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posted July 03, 2015 03:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tiff Click Here to Email Tiff Send a private message to Tiff Click to send Tiff an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I fully agree the ban is uncalled for. I can see it if people that have played against him etc complained that they felt uncomfortable or unsafe around him and thus wotc would be protecting the community.
 
Vegas10
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posted July 03, 2015 10:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegas10 Click Here to Email Vegas10 Send a private message to Vegas10 Click to send Vegas10 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
No thread for this yet, Zach Jesse was banned until 2049 from the DCI because ten years ago he pled guilty to sexual battery as part of a plea bargain.

Hopefully we can all be civil.

Obviously any sex crime is capital-B bad, but this is a guy who served his time, has reformed and got his civil rights back some time later. Wizards also blocked his MTGO account permanently.

This is a bad precedent. One other hall of famer has a drug dealing rap. Further, he never did anything wrong as a magic player or at a magic event. Presumably the SCG loudmouth who started blabbering about this guy's record googled him or something.

I don't think it is WOTC's place to punish somebody for something that happened 10 years ago. That's the role of the judicial system. Nobody knew or cared about his record until the SCG guy blabbed about it. Continuing to punish somebody for life even after they have served their time is simply not constructive. How do you draw the line? Would an armed robbery conviction disqualify somebody from being allowed to play magic? What about fraud? I know a certain Brick and Mortar storeowner in town who has a rich history selling stolen goods.



I think you can just go ahead and say the HOF is Chapin. And I tend to agree with most of what your wrote. I mean frankly had he not T8ed a GP he would still be playing and not banned, so basically because he did good and got on camera and someone "outed him" now he gets banned, doesn't make any sense. I mean how many big tournies are there probably other players with something bad in there history. While obviously most people don't commit these kinds of crimes, fact is most likely in a tourney of 1.5 or 2k there are likely others who have done something horrible in there past and got in some type of legal trouble. So they can all play unless suddenly they do good at an event? or is it going to now be required that you submit to backround checks in order to play sanctioned MTG? This decision seems arbitrary and like a kneeflex reaction to some bad social media press of some kind. This all being said though there is a delicate balance to be held as to not look insensitive to people who have been victims of these kind of crimes (other crimes as well) that I think they have to consider in decisions, however I don't think any of that was done here, I feel like it was just a decision that wasn't fully thought through.

 
LandDestroyer
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posted July 03, 2015 10:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
Ya, the fact they just took his MTGO account and said he couldn't even sell off the cards he sold or give them to a friend is completely insane. Such a bad precedent; I hope everyone just switches to xmage.

I don't know a lot about Zach but after reading what he has written etc the ban seems real bad. Sigh wotc

 
DJSmurfy
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posted July 03, 2015 11:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for DJSmurfy Click Here to Email DJSmurfy Send a private message to DJSmurfy Click to send DJSmurfy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Banning the guy for something a decade ago that has **** all to do with Magic is completely screwed up. The only justification I can think of, is if the guy can't be around kids or something. Without access to all the information, I'd wager that is the case, since sex crime laws in the US are pretty much a scorched earth policy. Take a leak in the woods and an uptight house wife sees you? Boom, indecent exposure charge, and now you're registered as a sex offender, and can't live near a school.
 
slurpee
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posted July 04, 2015 09:17 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for slurpee Click Here to Email slurpee Send a private message to slurpee Click to send slurpee an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View slurpee's Trade Auction or SaleView slurpee's Trade Auction or Sale
Its the liability. The company doesn't want it, and should he win do you want to see "Woman Beater wins Tournament, Beats another woman but this time takes home a check"

They don't want to promote that, and really they could care less about the individual. His defense is I paid my time, they are just protecting themselves. Is it right morally? No, but should he do something and they knew he had a wrap for this it could come back on wizards and tournament organizers. Given the settings of young people at tournments, I totally see why, but I understand both sides.

It would only take a single big incident to hurt the game and no one wants that he is just a small fish in a big pond.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by slurpee on July 04, 2015]

 
LandDestroyer
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posted July 04, 2015 10:07 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
If they are going to do something like that they should do a background check on every DCI member right now, ban accordingly, and do a background check on every new DCI member.

Do I think they should do that? No. Do I think that's about the only thing that would make them not a bunch of over reacting hypocrites? Probably

I swear. Only WOTC's dumm PR department could have me siding with a person convicted of sexual assault against them. sigh

[Edited 1 times, lastly by LandDestroyer on July 04, 2015]

 
paragondave
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posted July 08, 2015 08:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for paragondave Click Here to Email paragondave Send a private message to paragondave Click to send paragondave an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View paragondave's Have/Want ListView paragondave's Have/Want List
I'd need more details of the sexual battery case that he plead guilty to, in order to have a better informed opinion.

I would think playing Magic would be the least of his concerns though.

It is not surprising that something like that would come back to haunt someone.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by paragondave on July 08, 2015]

 
aethertech
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posted July 08, 2015 08:55 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
I'd need more details of the sexual battery case that he plead guilty to, in order to have a better informed opinion.

I would think playing Magic would be the least of his concerns though.

It is not surprising that something like that would come back to haunt someone.


To my limited knowledge of the event, both parties were intoxicated, and Zach J., was offered, and took a plea bargain. It was ~10 years ago.

 
dfitzg88
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posted July 08, 2015 09:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dfitzg88 Click Here to Email dfitzg88 Send a private message to dfitzg88 Click to send dfitzg88 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
UVA Case

Zach Jesse has done a lot to try to make the world a better place since the incident, but that doesn't erase the incident.

I don't believe it is WotC's place to punish someone for something that happened 10 years ago, but I am an adult, playing a game with other adults. WotC is marketing a children's game to children and needs to think about how an association with a rapist could hurt their brand.

Drew needs to be suspended for harassing players, and Zach Jesse should AT LEAST be allowed to play MTGO.

 
aethertech
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posted July 08, 2015 10:30 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
quote:

Drew needs to be suspended for harassing players, and Zach Jesse should AT LEAST be allowed to play MTGO.[/B]



This is honestly, the biggest issue right now, it's unlikely that WotC will unban Zach from being able to enter DCI sanctioned tournaments; but he should still be allowed to either A. continue to use MTGO; or B. be fully refunded for all money spent on the system - as well as additional compensation for the value of the MTGO collection he had.

Additionally (and the biggest issue by far), Drew needs to be banned - what he did was high-tier scumbaggery at its worst. If I could find the other bits and pieces; a few judges and other high-profile players should also be reprimanded for certain comments made towards the situation. At least one judge made a twitter comment about hanging Zach.


p.s. I don't know enough about the situation between Zach and the victim, nor was I present as a non-biased observer. I can not make any comments towards either individuals character or whatever truth in fact is or isn't present. I'm merely taking a side AGAINST the unethical actions and comments by WotC, Drew and others.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by aethertech on July 08, 2015]

 
AEther Storm
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posted July 08, 2015 10:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AEther Storm Click Here to Email AEther Storm Send a private message to AEther Storm Click to send AEther Storm an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AEther Storm's Have/Want ListView AEther Storm's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by aethertech:
To my limited knowledge of the event, both parties were intoxicated, and Zach J., was offered, and took a plea bargain. It was ~10 years ago.

I haven't really gotten into the story, but when you become intoxicated by alcohol or drugs you do so full-knowingly. To me that means you are 100% responsible for your actions. The fact that it was 10 years ago doesn't count for me as well. Just wait until it is ones kid that is sexually harassed, then we'll see if one thinks that the crime becomes less serious or un-punishable after an amount of time.

On case, I don't think Wizards should ban anyone like they did.

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aethertech
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posted July 08, 2015 10:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by AEther Storm:
I haven't really gotten into the story, but when you become intoxicated by alcohol or drugs you do so full-knowingly. To me that means you are 100% responsible for your actions.

By your statement, the "victim" is responsible for her own "rape" because she decided to get drunk. That's a very slippery slope you've created.


quote:
Originally posted by AEther Storm:
The fact that it was 10 years ago doesn't count for me as well. Just wait until it is ones kid that is sexually harassed, then we'll see if one thinks that the crime becomes less serious or un-punishable after an amount of time.

Could you please re-type this whole statement? It's very confusing to read and I'm not quite sure as to your actual point(s)?

quote:
Originally posted by AEther Storm:
On case, I don't think Wizards should ban anyone like they did.



As in: not ban Z. Jesse at all?
 
AEther Storm
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posted July 08, 2015 11:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AEther Storm Click Here to Email AEther Storm Send a private message to AEther Storm Click to send AEther Storm an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AEther Storm's Have/Want ListView AEther Storm's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by aethertech:
By your statement, the "victim" is responsible for her own "rape" because she decided to get drunk. That's a very slippery slope you've created.

[

No, as I read/understand it, both people were intoxicated? You know what can happen when you get drunk or anything, that's why people shouldn't drive after drinking, for instance. If you drink too much, well, one can pass out, alcohol poisoning, etc. Example, I know that when I go out to get tipsy/drunk, I shouldn't drive back home because I could create an accident. You are responsible for your own actions.
My point is, being intoxicated doesn't reduce the severeness of the crime.

EDIT: and yes, the person who was taken advantage from isn't the brightest one, too. The same goes for her. You know that when you've drank too much you could be taken advantage from (in one way or the other, doesn't necessarily have to be rape, could be anything). That being said, she is not responsible for his actions and therefore no guilty party. He committed a crime, not her.

Could you please re-type this whole statement? It's very confusing to read and I'm not quite sure as to your actual point(s)?

Someone indicated that the crime had taken place 10 years ago. What I mean is that with a crime, after a certain amount of time has lapsed, becomes 'unpunishable' or the severeness of the sentence/penalty decreases. I disagree with that.
Let's say I break into your house and steal something. If I get caught, I would get 5 years in jail for that. If I get caught in 20 years, I believe I should still get 5 years in jail for that.

As in: not ban Z. Jesse at all?
Maybe temporarily. After someone has paid the fine or done the time, let him back in. Let him play MTGO but don't allow him to come back to physical tournaments until his sentence/penalty/fine has been completed.

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

Lord Flasheart: Enter the man who has no underwear. Ask me why.
Lieutenant George: Why do you have no underwear, Lord Flash?
Lord Flasheart: Because the pants haven't been built yet that'll take the job on!



[Edited 1 times, lastly by AEther Storm on July 08, 2015]

 
aethertech
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posted July 08, 2015 11:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by AEther Storm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aethertech:
By your statement, the "victim" is responsible for her own "rape" because she decided to get drunk. That's a very slippery slope you've created.

[

No, as I read/understand it, both people were intoxicated? You know what can happen when you get drunk or anything, that's why people shouldn't drive after drinking, for instance. If you drink too much, well, one can pass out, alcohol poisoning, etc. Example, I know that when I go out to get tipsy/drunk, I shouldn't drive back home because I could create an accident. You are responsible for your own actions.
My point is, being intoxicated doesn't reduce the severeness of the crime.

EDIT: and yes, the person who was taken advantage from isn't the brightest one, too. The same goes for her. You know that when you've drank too much you could be taken advantage from (in one way or the other, doesn't necessarily have to be rape, could be anything). That being said, she is not responsible for his actions and therefore no guilty party. He committed a crime, not her.

Could you please re-type this whole statement? It's very confusing to read and I'm not quite sure as to your actual point(s)?

Someone indicated that the crime had taken place 10 years ago. What I mean is that with a crime, after a certain amount of time has lapsed, becomes 'unpunishable' or the severeness of the sentence/penalty decreases. I disagree with that.
Let's say I break into your house and steal something. If I get caught, I would get 5 years in jail for that. If I get caught in 20 years, I believe I should still get 5 years in jail for that.

As in: not ban Z. Jesse at all?
Maybe temporarily. After someone has paid the fine or done the time, let him back in. Let him play MTGO but don't allow him to come back to physical tournaments until his sentence/penalty/fine has been completed.

[/QUOTE]


Wow...dude. According to the law, and the court system - Z. Jesse has served his time. 10 years ago.

 
AEther Storm
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posted July 08, 2015 11:49 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AEther Storm Click Here to Email AEther Storm Send a private message to AEther Storm Click to send AEther Storm an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AEther Storm's Have/Want ListView AEther Storm's Have/Want List
if he already did the time etc, then for me, it's done. Let him back in.

btw, you agree or disagree with me?

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

Lord Flasheart: Enter the man who has no underwear. Ask me why.
Lieutenant George: Why do you have no underwear, Lord Flash?
Lord Flasheart: Because the pants haven't been built yet that'll take the job on!



[Edited 1 times, lastly by AEther Storm on July 09, 2015]

 
paragondave
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posted July 08, 2015 11:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for paragondave Click Here to Email paragondave Send a private message to paragondave Click to send paragondave an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View paragondave's Have/Want ListView paragondave's Have/Want List
Every convict who has 'served' their time still deals with the consequences of their actions after they are released. Being banned from playing Magic seems inconsequential in regards to the other more life affecting consequences that he will surely face or is facing, like having to register as a sex offender, difficulty in finding employment or housing, etc.

Sorry, but I give zero firetrucks for his suffering at not being able to play Magic.

After reading the UVA rape report linked to earlier, I feel even less sympathy for this guy. He should consider himself fortunate that neither he nor the victim are my child (my son is the same age as Jesse). In either case he would likely no longer be walking this earth.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by paragondave on July 09, 2015]

 
aethertech
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posted July 09, 2015 12:06 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
Every convict who has 'served' their time still deals with the consequences of their actions after they are released. Being banned from playing Magic seems inconsequential in regards to the other more life affecting consequences that he will surely face or is facing, like having to register as a sex offender, difficulty in finding employment or housing, etc.

Sorry, but I give zero firetrucks for his suffering at not being able to play Magic.

After reading the UVA rape report linked to earlier, I feel even less sympathy for this guy. He should consider himself fortunate that neither he nor the victim are my child (my son is the same age as Jesse). In either case he would likely no longer be walking this earth.


Thank you, for re-affirming just how much of a douchebag you are. Now, would you like to take your murder-happy tendencies and go get some professional help - as in, a psychiatrist?


[Edited 1 times, lastly by aethertech on July 09, 2015]

 
AEther Storm
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posted July 09, 2015 12:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AEther Storm Click Here to Email AEther Storm Send a private message to AEther Storm Click to send AEther Storm an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AEther Storm's Have/Want ListView AEther Storm's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
Every convict who has 'served' their time still deals with the consequences of their actions after they are released. Being banned from playing Magic seems inconsequential in regards to the other more life affecting consequences that he will surely face or is facing, like having to register as a sex offender, difficulty in finding employment or housing, etc.

Correct, which isn't fair if you follow the system. One has done the time or paid their dues. After that the slate should be clean. Marked, but clean.

quote:
Sorry, but I give zero firetrucks for his suffering at not being able to play Magic.

Me neither, I'm just saying I think he should be allowed to.

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Lord Flasheart: Enter the man who has no underwear. Ask me why.
Lieutenant George: Why do you have no underwear, Lord Flash?
Lord Flasheart: Because the pants haven't been built yet that'll take the job on!

 
paragondave
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posted July 09, 2015 12:55 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for paragondave Click Here to Email paragondave Send a private message to paragondave Click to send paragondave an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View paragondave's Have/Want ListView paragondave's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by aethertech:
Thank you, for re-affirming just how much of a douchebag you are. Now, would you like to take your murder-happy tendencies and go get some professional help - as in, a psychiatrist?

so much for civility...

Friend of yours?

Let me know how you feel after someone rapes your daughter.

I wear the insults of such as you like a badge of honor. I am very pleased that I continue to offend you.

 
dfitzg88
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posted July 09, 2015 01:33 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for dfitzg88 Click Here to Email dfitzg88 Send a private message to dfitzg88 Click to send dfitzg88 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by paragondave:
Let me know how you feel after someone rapes your daughter.

Rarely do I agree with paragondave. Today just happens to be one of those days.

 
hilikuS
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posted July 09, 2015 07:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
Volc, you're a lawyer right? So I think you're definitely seeing it from the eyes of the law here. Like, I tend to agree with you. I think it's messed up when people serve their time and then get screwed on stuff like this. It's crappy, unfair, and unjust.

However, I think slurpee's point is the one that matters. WoTC is definitely playing damage control. This is a PR move to me, and this guy is unfortunately their scapegoat. They wash themselves of any problems this guy might cause (although nobody has mentioned a record of him doing ANYTHING at a Magic event), and for a lot of people it makes them like Wizards a lot more for it.

Wizards can now pander to all of the anti-bullying group hug **** that goes on in this country. That's a lot of parents who have teenagers that play the game, and a lot of other people too. It's gotta be because it's so prevalent in society. It's just a good move on their part.

So Volcanon, I super agree with you that this SHOULDN'T happen, but it is the right move for Wizards.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by hilikuS on July 09, 2015]

 
stu55
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posted July 09, 2015 09:36 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for stu55 Click Here to Email stu55 Send a private message to stu55 Click to send stu55 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
We all understand that Hasbro is the one calling the shots here right and not WoTC? It makes a bit more sense when a publicly trade toy company does something like this and not a CCG subsidiary of said company.

That said, that said, Jesse did something terrible 10 years ago (do NOT call it a mistake, a mistake is making a typo), but people did not have all the facts about the resolution of the case and how it happened.

 
LandDestroyer
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posted July 09, 2015 10:27 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for LandDestroyer Click Here to Email LandDestroyer Send a private message to LandDestroyer Click to send LandDestroyer an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View LandDestroyer's Have/Want ListView LandDestroyer's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by stu55:
We all understand that Hasbro is the one calling the shots here right and not WoTC? It makes a bit more sense when a publicly trade toy company does something like this and not a CCG subsidiary of said company.

That said, that said, Jesse did something terrible 10 years ago (do NOT call it a mistake, a mistake is making a typo), but people did not have all the facts about the resolution of the case and how it happened.


tbf none of us know for sure what jesse did or didn't do. we know what he was accused of and what he pleaded to at the advice of his lawyers

 
Goaswerfraiejen
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posted July 10, 2015 06:58 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Goaswerfraiejen Click Here to Email Goaswerfraiejen Send a private message to Goaswerfraiejen Click to send Goaswerfraiejen an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
What happens in 2049 that makes it OK for him to play again, in WOTC's eyes?


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